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@tels
Sorry i can't quote from my phone, very limited text features. Love the build concept, there's a few problems as far as i can see.
The ranger doesn't get shield master as a bonus feat at least not from the standard ranger or any archetypes that i see and with a 6 rouge /6 ranger.your bab will only net a 10 and shield master requires 11. Am i missing something
My other questions, why ranger? If its just to get the combat style feats i can gain them faster with fighter plus the increased bab would allow getting shield master faster. The only downside i see to fighter is loosing the extra skill points and the 2 favored enemies. Also why 6 levels of rouge? At 5 she gains her 3d6 sneak the extra level only grants me trap sense bonus and an extra rouge talent. Looking at the core book there are only three rouge talents that would help me, combat trick, weapon training if i can use that on shields, and surprise attack and that only helps if my party lets the rogue go first like they should but when most the people play big stupid fighters who seem to think suprise rounds are for pussies and they have enough hit points to handle a trap or two. I don't get too many suprise rounds.
If i would want all three i would just as well take a 7 level of rouge to get that extra d6 of damage and this characters case 2d6.
i really like the start you have given me and i have a job that for the most part allows me to sit around and do nothing till something happens so I'll look around at seeing what i can do to minmax this build and post my results for review, this character has two weeks to come together. My main character met an unfortunate end becuase of his s%!@ty will saves. Got color sprayed for 12 rounds rolled nat 1on the save and layed unconscious at the feet of a negative channeling cleric who bursted for 15 rounds... suck ass end to a beautiful barbarian /fighter/monk.
Advanced Players Guide allows Weapon and Shield style. You can't take Shield Master without a +11 BAB unless you're Ranger, who can take it at level 6 because his combat style allows him to ignore the prerequisites. So if you want early access to Shield Master, instead of not taking it until the end of your career, you play a Ranger. The leveling is up to you, but I would suggest getting that 6th level of Ranger ASAP so you can bypass the need for enchanting magical weapons.
As for the 6th Rogue level? It was for the Combat Trick. Take Offensive Defense, Ki Pool and Vanishing Trick. Offensive Defense gives you a dodge bonus equal to the number of sneak attack damage dice when you make a sneak attack. Now there is a FAQ about Offensive Defense that mentions they are considering changing Offensive Defense because you can use it to get an absurdly high AC. Why? Because Dodge bonuses always stack. So lets say you make 4 sneak attacks with Offensive Defense, you hit 3 times. You have a 3d6 sneak attack, so you have just gained a +9 Dodge bonus to your AC.
Ki Pool allows a Rogue to gain a limited Ki Pool similar to the Ninja and the Rogue can then take Ninja tricks. Vanishing Trick allows a Rogue to turn invisible for the cost of 1 Ki point as a Swift action.
So if you are unable to get a flank or stealth off to get your Sneak Attack. You could use your Ki to turn Invisible and then get your Sneak Attacks.
As far as I am aware, when you select a Ninja Trick, you then select one of the tricks from the Ninja Trick List. So it would be more like Ki Pool and Ninja Trick (Vanishing Trick) if you wanted to get technical.
The Scout Archetype only works if you make a charge. If you aren't charging, you don't get the Sneak Attack. It's not like the 3E Scout class where you get bonus damage for moving 10 feet, the archetype requires a charge, which is a full-round action.
Honestly, most of the Ranger Archetypes are trash in my opinion, many of them trade out Favored Enemy for relatively crappy bonuses. Rogue Archetypes are better, but none of them really scream as necessary when it comes to this particular style of combat.
Paizo did some cool stuff with Archetypes, but they focuses too much on Barbarians, Fighters, and Bards. Those three classes have the BEST archetypes to play with, and Monk is a strong runner up. All my opinion of course, but, in my experience, the other classes are often times as good or better off just sticking to vanilla.
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I think the only changes im going to make is for the rouge perks taking offensive defense, weapon training (heavy shield), and combat trick (enforcer). Then because im almost positive my GM will say no to removing the power attack negs, remove power attack and improved initiative and replacing them with dazzling display and shatter defenses. And i don't feel like playing a female and i will have plenty of skill points to boost both diplomacy and intimidate take the trait reactionary to help boost my initiative a little.
Love the character and can't wait for the same WTF reaction i had, from everyone else when i tell them im dual wielding shields... it just sounds ineffective untill you crunch the numbers.
Again thanks alot. You should try and get this added to the build guide. Its rare to find people who want to play pacifist but thats why being able to find help on making a good one is so important. And almost every campaign I've played in we have had to try to take a character alive to get information out of them. This build works great for that.
The Scout Archetype only works if you make a charge. If you aren't charging, you don't get the Sneak Attack. It's not like the 3E Scout class where you get bonus damage for moving 10 feet, the archetype requires a charge, which is a full-round action.
Not true. Once a Scout hits 8th level, they don't need to be charging anymore. Any time they move ten feet and attack, they do sneak attack. That means they can dogleg: move 5 feet, go around an obstacle to the foe and sneak attack; something that isn't possible with charge.
Skirmisher (Ex)
At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.
This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.
The Scout Archetype only works if you make a charge. If you aren't charging, you don't get the Sneak Attack. It's not like the 3E Scout class where you get bonus damage for moving 10 feet, the archetype requires a charge, which is a full-round action.
Not true. Once a Scout hits 8th level, they don't need to be charging anymore. Any time they move ten feet and attack, they do sneak attack. That means they can dogleg: move 5 feet, go around an obstacle to the foe and sneak attack; something that isn't possible with charge.
** spoiler omitted **
True, however, the build I mentioned above only goes to 6th level Rogue, so the Scout Archetype isn't very useful for him. Scout is great if you can get all 8 Rogue levels, but if you don't then it's not so good.
Hello to all (and broken zenith), I'm here today to propose a very peculiar build, which I call the "Ideal Slinger" (in opposition to "Zen Archer"). It's a fun build that allows a slinger to send out as many projectiles as a zen archer, while also having a higher to-hit while still being able to handle itself in melee. While not being the most optimized build, it is definitly th best way to use slings, and the ONLY way to effectively combine TWF in range and in melee.
Hope you guys enjoy! I've tried to meet as many of the prerequisites as possible. This is just a theoretical build however. I am itching to test it out though!
I might post up a few of my other builds later. How do you feel about otpimized builds for prestige classes?
I think the only changes im going to make is for the rouge perks taking offensive defense, weapon training (heavy shield), and combat trick (enforcer). Then because im almost positive my GM will say no to removing the power attack negs, remove power attack and improved initiative and replacing them with dazzling display and shatter defenses. And i don't feel like playing a female and i will have plenty of skill points to boost both diplomacy and intimidate take the trait reactionary to help boost my initiative a little.
Love the character and can't wait for the same WTF reaction i had, from everyone else when i tell them im dual wielding shields... it just sounds ineffective untill you crunch the numbers.
Again thanks alot. You should try and get this added to the build guide. Its rare to find people who want to play pacifist but thats why being able to find help on making a good one is so important. And almost every campaign I've played in we have had to try to take a character alive to get information out of them. This build works great for that.
Power Attack gives a -3 penalty for a +6 damage bonus, I would be cautious about removing that feat, it's usually the go-to feat to increase damage.
Damnit, my previous link doesnt work. Here's a new one:
Ideal Slinger
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@tels
The reason i feel lime taking the scout is for moving from enemy to enemy I'll charge if they are more the 10ft apart. If i have to move over to them i loose my full attack round any ways, might as well be able to through a little more sneak damage on there just to try and make up a little of what im losing from not being able to full round it. Plus if i land the attack having offensive defense I'll won't have to worry about the ac penalty. I elected to skip on PA and I-initiative because with have enforcer, dazzling display, shatter defenses and all my attacks being non lethal i should be able to catch them flat footed almost every strike and the double SA bonus is alot more than the PA bonus and i don'thave to worry aboiy my gm throwing a fit over RAW vs RAI. If i crunch the numbers right, given my chances to intimidate if i keep max ranks in it i should be doing much better off at every level past 6 without PA. It is the basic fall back but there are sometimes better options out there.
Thanks for the help. With the inspiration from this build and prototypes dual shield guy im thinking of build a pure dwarf or half-orc fighter wearing mitheral full plate and dual spike shields. Since bashing takes it up two levels higher they would be dealing 1d10 p&b each and AC would just be ridiculous. You would just have to worry about spell casters for the fighters s!!~ty will saves and your touch AC wouldn't be the greatest.
I also thought abouy a negative bursting cleric figter with dual tower shields. No shield bash but you just negative channel for your damage. The dual sheilds are just to up AC.
@tels
The reason i feel lime taking the scout is for moving from enemy to enemy I'll charge if they are more the 10ft apart. If i have to move over to them i loose my full attack round any ways, might as well be able to through a little more sneak damage on there just to try and make up a little of what im losing from not being able to full round it. Plus if i land the attack having offensive defense I'll won't have to worry about the ac penalty. I elected to skip on PA and I-initiative because with have enforcer, dazzling display, shatter defenses and all my attacks being non lethal i should be able to catch them flat footed almost every strike and the double SA bonus is alot more than the PA bonus and i don'thave to worry aboiy my gm throwing a fit over RAW vs RAI. If i crunch the numbers right, given my chances to intimidate if i keep max ranks in it i should be doing much better off at every level past 6 without PA. It is the basic fall back but there are sometimes better options out there.
Thanks for the help. With the inspiration from this build and prototypes dual shield guy im thinking of build a pure dwarf or half-orc fighter wearing mitheral full plate and dual spike shields. Since bashing takes it up two levels higher they would be dealing 1d10 p&b each and AC would just be ridiculous. You would just have to worry about spell casters for the fighters s$&+ty will saves and your touch AC wouldn't be the greatest.
I also thought abouy a negative bursting cleric figter with dual tower shields. No shield bash but you just negative channel for your damage. The dual sheilds are just to up AC.
Don't use spikes on your shield, it changes the damage to piercing. You need the damage to stay Bludgeoning in order to get the benefit from Sap Adept/Master.
Also, it was clarified somewhere that shield spikes are a separate weapon in and of themselves. So Shield Master doesn't transfer the shield enhancement bonus to the shield bash, because the shield spikes are a separate weapon that need their own separate enhancement.
Also, you can't double up on the shield bonus to your AC. Dual-wielding shields doesn't give you double the shield bonus, you only get it once.
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Power Attack gives a -3 penalty for a +6 damage bonus, I would be cautious about removing that feat, it's usually the go-to feat to increase damage.I think the only changes im going to make is for the rouge perks taking offensive defense, weapon training (heavy shield), and combat trick (enforcer). Then because im almost positive my GM will say no to removing the power attack negs, remove power attack and improved initiative and replacing them with dazzling display and shatter defenses. And i don't feel like playing a female and i will have plenty of skill points to boost both diplomacy and intimidate take the trait reactionary to help boost my initiative a little.
Love the character and can't wait for the same WTF reaction i had, from everyone else when i tell them im dual wielding shields... it just sounds ineffective untill you crunch the numbers.
Again thanks alot. You should try and get this added to the build guide. Its rare to find people who want to play pacifist but thats why being able to find help on making a good one is so important. And almost every campaign I've played in we have had to try to take a character alive to get information out of them. This build works great for that.
So upon looking for ways to maximumize the sap master skills i came across this build that i feel is much more fitting of vash instead of carrying around two shields.
Str 10Dex 18
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 16
Human: Weapon Finesse 1st: Sap Adept 3rd: Snake Style 5th: Weapon Focus 7th: Sap Mastery 9th: Dazzling Display 11th: Shatter Defenses 13th: 15th: 17th: 19th:
Class Levels: 1 Ninja(1) 2 Ninja(2) - Ninja Trick (vanishing trick) 3 Monk (1) (master of many styles) - Bonus Feat (Snake Fang) 4 Ninja(3) 5 Ninja(4) - Ninja Trick (Offensive Defense) 6 Ninja(5) 7 Ninja(6) - Ninja Trick (Knockout Artist) 8 Ninja(7) 9 Ninja(8) - Ninja Trick (Enforcer) 10Ninja(9) 11Ninja(10) - Ninja Trick (Forgotten Trick) 12Ninja(11)
Correct me if I'm wrong but do you mean the Trench Fighter, a Fighter archetype, instead of the Ratfolk Gunslinger archetype, Gulch Gunner?? Otherwise it seems kind of cool and not overly powerful, just flavorful.i've got an odd gulch gunner/(myrmidarch) magus build im toying with in my head, once i get something more concrete i'll throw it upon your mercy.
something like MoMS monk 2/Gulch Gunner 5/Myrmidarch Magus 13.
end result with that level setup is (before gear):
15/10/5 BAB (16/11/6 if you use that alt BAB rule for multiclassing)
15/11/12 saves
crane style/wing for free hand shenanigans and free grit regain
dex to damage
5th-level magus spells (1 less/day from AT, CL15 from magical knack for max intensified shocking grasp damage)
spellstrike at range with all the wonderful touch AC goodness of firearms
fighter weapon/armor training
fighter feats available (ECL 10)and you can cover most of the losses for the archetype by investing in pearls of power.
honestly it'd probably be better off as a straight monk 2 / gunner 18, I like me some gun magic (that isn't the wizard's hilariously terrible attempt at it), so sue me.
no, i was referring to the ratfolk archtype. it just assumed you took racial heritage: ratfolk if youre a human, half-elf/orc (because subtype human means human, while elf/orc blood have been removed/subsumed by the subtype system), or scion of humanity aasimar. this is mostly for the melee-gunning shenaniganery for easy grit regen with crane wing (threaten an aoo by firing in melee range of someone, crane wing/riposte to autodeflect it and hit them, get free and easy grit)
that said, the fighter AT works nicely as well, since it gets more feats. that said, some DMs might go "no you cant use trench fighter since its only applicable to WW2/modern weaponry which youre only exposed to when you're fighting rasputin in that one adventure path, which is not in MYYYYYYYYY world. for some reason."
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@Williamok: Great, added!
@inhuman_candyman and Tels: Can you perhaps take this conversation to a different thread, or just pm each other?
My bad, kinda went off on a tangent with some of it but now there are two great non lethal builds on this thread. I'll stop clogging up the thread with back and forth question comments now.
Question, do you want 3rd party builds as well or only Paizo builds?
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Got a build for you. Sorry i don't have it in Google whatever form or have the spoiler blocks up.
What do you get when you cross a rattlesnake and a panther?
I give you the diamondback panther.
Your best bet is just to leave him alone.
Human master of many styles/qinggong monk Traits :indomitable faith (+1will saves) because my last two guys have died from having crappy will saves. And reactionary (+2 to initiative )
Str 14 Dex 16 (14+2) Con 13 Int 11 Wis 16 Cha 7
Human: combat reflexes 1. Fighter- dodge mobility. Medium armor and lucerene hammer. Fight like a normal fighter with a reach weapon. 2. Monk- panther style. This is where he starts to get a little fun. Ditch the hammer and medium armor, grab a chain shirt and a heavy shield and go capt. America on there ass. Shield and fist, try and provoke as many AoO before stopping in front of an enemy and get 1 attack against everyone who took the AoO against you plus get a final attack against the guy you stopped in front of. Panther attacks are not AoO so take as many as you can get. 3. Monk- snake style, snake fang. Same as level 2 but now each time they miss you with there attack you can take up to 4 extra attacks; 3 AoO from snake fang and one poor sap gets hit woth another unarmed strike if you land your AoO. Thats up to 8 attacks in a round at level 3. 4. Fighter- pather claw. Now this gets crazy. What do you do? Provoke, provoke, provoke! Panther claw allows you to make a number of unarmed attacks equal to your wisdom mod on everyone you provoke an AoO from. That's 3 attacks plus 1 for up to three guys who miss their AoO against you plus an additional 1 on somebody you land your first snake fang on, all before making yout standard attack action. increase wisdom for 4th level. Try to get mitheral breast plate of brawling asap. 5. Monk- panther parry. Now your retaliation attacks are resolved before your opponents AoO. So at 5 level you might kill them before they even get to finish their AoO. Again you can do this as many times as there are enemies within range to run past. Take a full round sprint action if you like. 6. Monk 7. Fighter- lunge. Now you can fight back against large characters too. 8. Monk- using the qinggong monk ability replace still mind with scorching ray. Abi wis. Now you can use scorching ray 4/day for those tougher characters. Unarmed strike is now a d8. 9. Fighter- weapon focus fist 10. Fighter- fortified armor training. Could mean the difference between life or death. If a crit might kill you, break the shield. 11. Fighter- windstance. Since you're always on the move this will help protect you from ranged attacks from archers and pesky speel casters. 12. Fighter- lightning stance. Abi dex. Grants you 50 percent concealment as long as you two action move or withdraw.
Carry alot of portions with this build. You're going to need them and just to taunt the enemies, drink the potion in their reach because your wanting them to attack you. This build also helps your party move more freely around the battlefield. Unless the enemies have combat reflexes you can soak up the AoO so your party can move right past the enemy if they want. Hopefully so your cleric can get to you and heal and buff you.
Major weaknesses are if enemies get smart and stop taking AoO against you and metagaming GM's that start encounters with the enemy already knowing not to take AoO against you. Also you are going to get hit alot because you are literally asking for it. CARRY LOTS OF POTIONS.
What do you think?
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Got a build for you. Sorry i don't have it in Google whatever form or have the spoiler blocks up.
What do you get when you cross a rattlesnake and a panther?
I give you the diamondback panther.
Your best bet is just to leave him alone.Human master of many styles/qinggong monk Traits :indomitable faith (+1will saves) because my last two guys have died from having crappy will saves. And reactionary (+2 to initiative )
Str 14 Dex 16 (14+2) Con 13 Int 11 Wis 16 Cha 7
Human: combat reflexes 1. Fighter- dodge mobility. Medium armor and lucerene hammer. Fight like a normal fighter with a reach weapon. 2. Monk- panther style. This is where he starts to get a little fun. Ditch the hammer and medium armor, grab a chain shirt and a heavy shield and go capt. America on there ass. Shield and fist, try and provoke as many AoO before stopping in front of an enemy and get 1 attack against everyone who took the AoO against you plus get a final attack against the guy you stopped in front of. Panther attacks are not AoO so take as many as you can get. 3. Monk- snake style, snake fang. Same as level 2 but now each time they miss you with there attack you can take up to 4 extra attacks; 3 AoO from snake fang and one poor sap gets hit woth another unarmed strike if you land your AoO. Thats up to 8 attacks in a round at level 3. 4. Fighter- pather claw. Now this gets crazy. What do you do? Provoke, provoke, provoke! Panther claw allows you to make a number of unarmed attacks equal to your wisdom mod on everyone you provoke an AoO from. That's 3 attacks plus 1 for up to three guys who miss their AoO against you plus an additional 1 on somebody you land your first snake fang on, all before making yout standard attack action. increase wisdom for 4th level. Try to get mitheral breast plate of brawling asap. 5. Monk- panther parry. Now your retaliation attacks are resolved before your opponents AoO. So at 5 level you might kill them before they even get to finish their AoO. Again you can do this as many times as there are...
I guess i have a correction to make. I see why i thought this guy was too good to be true, because he is.
Panther style only allows the character to make one retaliation attack per turn since it is done as a swift action. Panther style makes the attacks free actions and acording to the core rule book its up to the GM to reasonably decide what can be done for free. But you still get atleast your wis mod worth of attacks so i think ill keep him.
@ Broken zenith: I've got aother build for you. A heavily multiclassed swordlord that manages to get about 66 AC by level 20. Here's the link to my post (I'm still waiting for comments):
Swordlord
It's got ridiculous AC, great initiative, and decent attack. The tarrasque itself would have a hard time hitting it. What do you think?
I think I'll go for "The master duelist" or something along those lines. I'll modify the files soon enough.
I've updated it with a new name, the "paragon duelist". Hope you like it.
alrighty! finished up my dwarf fighter build.
Behold! The Dwarfiest Dwarf
a straight dwarf fighter who uses a warhammer and shield do dish out the hurt and avoid it himself (with a penchant for avoiding magic)--available in a wide range of archetypes, racial ability tradeouts, and colors!
please look it over and make sure i haven't supremely screwed it up somewhere!
alrighty! finished up my dwarf fighter build.
Behold! The Dwarfiest Dwarf
a straight dwarf fighter who uses a warhammer and shield do dish out the hurt and avoid it himself (with a penchant for avoiding magic)--available in a wide range of archetypes, racial ability tradeouts, and colors!please look it over and make sure i haven't supremely screwed it up somewhere!
Just glancing, right off the bat, I notice you forgot to do the PB spread for 25 points (they're all 10s). Just thought I'd point it out :P
[Edit] You can save some money on your shield because of Shield Master.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus.
A +5 Shield (to AC) is also a +5 Shield (weapon) in the hands of a Shield Master. So you can drop the +5 bashing defending to a +1 bashing defending (still need the +1 to add the magical abilities). You can even toss on energy damage types to fill in the extra +4 you just made if you want to squeeze out a bit more damage. This could net you an extra 4d6 damage, by getting corrosive, fire, frost, and shock damage added. Or you could add Un/Holy or Bane etc. etc.
[Edit Part, the Second] Okay, again, only quickly glanced to it but I didn't spot anything. I did jump when you did the level break downs and saw AC 25 at level 20 (!!!) but then noticed the 'assuming non-magical gear/items' bit and I suggest you make that bigger or on it's own separate line and bold it so people don't freak.
alrighty! finished up my dwarf fighter build.
Behold! The Dwarfiest Dwarf
a straight dwarf fighter who uses a warhammer and shield do dish out the hurt and avoid it himself (with a penchant for avoiding magic)--available in a wide range of archetypes, racial ability tradeouts, and colors!please look it over and make sure i haven't supremely screwed it up somewhere!
Just glancing, right off the bat, I notice you forgot to do the PB spread for 25 points (they're all 10s). Just thought I'd point it out :P
[Edit] You can save some money on your shield because of Shield Master.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus.
A +5 Shield (to AC) is also a +5 Shield (weapon) in the hands of a Shield Master. So you can drop the +5 bashing defending to a +1 bashing defending (still need the +1 to add the magical abilities). You can even toss on energy damage types to fill in the extra +4 you just made if you want to squeeze out a bit more damage. This could net you an extra 4d6 damage, by getting corrosive, fire, frost, and shock damage added. Or you could add Un/Holy or Bane etc. etc.
[Edit Part, the Second] Okay, again, only quickly glanced to it but I didn't spot anything. I did jump when you did the level break downs and saw AC 25 at level 20 (!!!) but then noticed the 'assuming non-magical gear/items' bit and I suggest you make that bigger or on it's own separate line and bold it so people don't freak.
i KNEW i missed something about shields. thanks for pointing that out!
i'll make sure to bold the nonmagical disclaimer when i have time to edit it tomorrow.
okay, updated shield (slapped on countering because why not, there's still good money to throw around) and the disclaimers on the AC/level benchmark things.
I'm looking over things more, and here is what I'm seeing:
Your feats are all wonky. The Build at the end has a Warhammer as a weapon, but the Feats are all set up for a Dwarven Waraxe (Weapon Focus, Specilization are all set to Waraxe when it should be Warhammer). Now I'm going to go ahead and assume you meant Warhammer for the rest of this.
Attacks:
*main hand* +25/+20/+15/+10 (1d10+15 (x3 crit)) / *off-hand* +23/+18/+13 (1d8+11 (x2 crit))
+rend 1/round (1d10+9)
-5/+10 power attack (-5/+5 for off-hand)
This is just plain incorrect. It's not factoring anything but the BAB and weapon. It should be 20 (BAB) + 6 (Str) + 6 (Wpn Trning + Dueling) + 5 (weapon) + 2 (Feats) for a total of +39/+34/+29/+24 when you full attack with the Warhammer, while the Shield Bash would be +38/+33/+28/+23 if you full attacked with the Shield.
Now if you used TWF, you would be +37/+32/+27/+22 with the Warhammer and +38/+33/+28 with the shield (more on this later).
With Power Attack, you subtract a further -5 from the Warhammer, but apply no penalty to the Shield Bash (again, more on this later) so your attack is either +34/+29/+25/+19 (non-TWF) or +32/+27/+22/+17 while TWF.
As you can see, it's a substantial difference than what you have listed.
==============================
Now, for the Shield part. The field Shield Master is extraordinarily powerful, and most don't know why.
Your mastery of the shield allows you to fight with it without hindrance.Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Shield Slam, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus.
First of all, it lets your +5 defensive enhancement (half the price of the offensive enhancement) act as an offensive enhancement as well. Worth the Feat for just that part. The REAL bonus, however, is not in the economical efficiency, it's the very first line after benefit.
"You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon."
No penalties. None what-so-ever. I believe this was intended to allow for Shield Bashers to negate the TWF penalty, however, it is far more powerful than that. No penalty means that when you Power Attack with the shield, you get the damage bonus with none of the attack penalty that comes with it.
That is HUGELY powerful. I've never bothered to sit down and figure it out, but one could find all the abilities that accept a penalty to attack for bonuses elsewhere, and negate all of them using Shield Master. For instance, try Power Attack (-5/+10), Combat Expertise (-6/+6) and Fighting Defensively (-4/+2) for a total of -15 to attack for +10 to damage and +8 Dodge bonus. Shield Master negates the -14 penalty, but still gives you the bonus.
I am confident this is absolutely not the intention of the feat, but it is still the RAW of the feat.
It's up to you how you want to handle it in your Guide, but I think you should mention the RAW/RAI aspect of Shield Master and only negate the -2 penalty from TWF, while still applying all other penalties.
==============================
I'm not really seeing anything else that comes to mind, but I'm also not really getting the chance to sink all the way into this build. I've recently acquired the guardianship of 2 younglings (3 years old and 17 months old) so I get sporadic access to the computer as I take care of them.
[Edit] Fixed Combat Expertise penalty/bonus. Also, I want to add, when you're planning builds check out the Monster Creation Rules for the average AC of enemies from a given CR. The average AC of a CR 20 creature is AC 36, and you want to try to get roughly an 80% chance to hit on your first iterative attack (and your second off-hand attack by extension). This is pre-party buffs, so that your third attack can usually be buffed up to or near the 95% (highest possible) hit chance mark.
[Edit] In regards to Shield Master, I recall a humorous tid-bit from protoype's Batter McShield Bash build (you can find it in the Guide).
First they laughed,
Then they cried,
Then they were afraid.
No one ever takes a dual-shield bashing build seriously, but, with Shield Master, you could potentially have the most damaging TWF build in the entire game.
i had a feeling i had the attack bonuses too low! i'll re-tally it in a sec.
the dwarven waraxe is an error from an earlier build (you cant TWF with a reach and non-reach weapon, since one or the other wont be able to attack), i'll swap it to warhammer while i'm doing the above.
did i at least get the damages right? id hate to be completely incompetent at the maths.
And now i must build a duil shield-bashing build. And be evil.
And now i must build a duil shield-bashing build. And be evil.
i thought the same thing when he brought up shield master. just keep'em spiked for those GMs who wanna say "even if youre attacking with it, a regular shield is still a shield".
did i at least get the damages right? id hate to be completely incompetent at the maths.
Ugh, knew I forgot something. I typed the last post over a period of roughly an hour and had to keep running around chasing my nephews between bouts of typing.
I'm beginning to wonder if, when I have a long post to make, I should make a note card first, so I can touch upon all the points that immediately came to mind.
Anyway, the damage is wrong too. Sorry!
+6 strength, +6 Weapon Training, +5 weapon, +4 Weapon Specilization, +10 power attack +2d6 damage vs Evil. Total of +31 damage +2d6 vs Evil. If he were ever forced to 2-hand his hammer, it changes to +9 strength and +15 Power attack for a +39 damage bonus.
With the shield, you get a +21 damage bonus twf/+34 damage 2-hand. Remember, Double Slice gives full strength bonus when two-weapon fighting, but Double Slice doesn't modify the Power Attack clause (though I houserule it to do so).
And, to top it all off, if you hit with your Warhammer and your Shield, you get an additional 1d10+9 damage.
[Edit] Also, your shield should have a Shield Spike on it, as this would change the damage of your shield bash to 2d6+21.
Also, I made a mistake in the previous attack bonus, I forgot you didn't include Weapon Focus/Greater for the Shield, so it's attack bonus is 2 points lower.
did i at least get the damages right? id hate to be completely incompetent at the maths.
Ugh, knew I forgot something. I typed the last post over a period of roughly an hour and had to keep running around chasing my nephews between bouts of typing.
I'm beginning to wonder if, when I have a long post to make, I should make a note card first, so I can touch upon all the points that immediately came to mind.
Anyway, the damage is wrong too. Sorry!
+6 strength, +6 Weapon Training, +5 weapon, +4 Weapon Specilization, +10 power attack +2d6 damage vs Evil. Total of +31 damage +2d6 vs Evil. If he were ever forced to 2-hand his hammer, it changes to +9 strength and +15 Power attack for a +39 damage bonus.
With the shield, you get a +21 damage bonus twf/+34 damage 2-hand. Remember, Double Slice gives full strength bonus when two-weapon fighting, but Double Slice doesn't modify the Power Attack clause (though I houserule it to do so). i am truly the worst practicioner of the wizardry of numbers
And, to top it all off, if you hit with your Warhammer and your Shield, you get an additional 1d10+9 damage.
[Edit] Also, your shield should have a Shield Spike on it, as this would change the damage of your shield bash to 2d6+21.
Also, I made a mistake in the previous attack bonus, I forgot you didn't include Weapon Focus/Greater for the Shield, so it's attack bonus is 2 points lower.
agh, i have been slapped in the face by the cold fish of nincompoopery!
We should probably take this to a discussion thread, because you should also include alternate builds for different archetypes, and alternate feat choices and why they should and or shouldn't be considered.
you make a good point. i'll throw out a thread momentarily.
EDIT: thread's over here if anyone hasn't found it already.
Hey broken zenith, got another build for you. It's a combo of barbarian/witch/eldritch knight/spherewalker. I call it the "spellrager". Silly high HP, good attack & defense, great use of transmutation spells.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qesp?Trying-to-build-an-witcheldritch-knight#6
Hope you like.
Another little thing broken zenith; it seems all of your links for "ravingdork" builds are broken. He switched all his stuff to skydrive a little while ago. So I've made a list of the new links for you to avoid having to mess around:
Lily oleander:
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=be45a5e31b322825&id=BE45A5E31B322825%211 94&authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno#!/view.aspx?cid=BE45A5E31B322825&resid= BE45A5E31B322825%21312&app=WordPdf&authkey=%21AAVhtc9jjDglhno&w do=1
Vallairs Ulm
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=be45a5e31b322825&id=BE45A5E31B322825%211 94&authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno#!/view.aspx?cid=BE45A5E31B322825&resid= BE45A5E31B322825%21250&app=WordPdf&authkey=%21AAVhtc9jjDglhno&w do=1
Seregon
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=be45a5e31b322825&id=BE45A5E31B322825!194 &authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno#!/view.aspx?cid=BE45A5E31B322825&resid=BE 45A5E31B322825!348&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno&wdo=1
Kang Makhai
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=be45a5e31b322825&id=BE45A5E31B322825!194 &authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno#!/view.aspx?cid=BE45A5E31B322825&resid=BE 45A5E31B322825!308&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno&wdo=1
Shiso Dafoe
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=be45a5e31b322825&id=BE45A5E31B322825!194 &authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno#!/view.aspx?cid=BE45A5E31B322825&resid=BE 45A5E31B322825!352&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno&wdo=1
Blind ganji
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=be45a5e31b322825&id=BE45A5E31B322825!194 &authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno#!/view.aspx?cid=BE45A5E31B322825&resid=BE 45A5E31B322825!267&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno&wdo=1
Araonna chorster
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=be45a5e31b322825&id=BE45A5E31B322825!194 &authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno#!/view.aspx?cid=BE45A5E31B322825&resid=BE 45A5E31B322825!9270&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno&wdo=1
Roshgog
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=be45a5e31b322825&id=BE45A5E31B322825%211 94&authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno#!/view.aspx?cid=BE45A5E31B322825&resid= BE45A5E31B322825%219485&app=WordPdf&authkey=%21AAVhtc9jjDglhno& wdo=1
She'er Falen
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=be45a5e31b322825&id=BE45A5E31B322825!194 &authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno#!/view.aspx?cid=BE45A5E31B322825&resid=BE 45A5E31B322825!351&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno&wdo=1
Durin Wrang
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=be45a5e31b322825&id=BE45A5E31B322825!194 &authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno#!/view.aspx?cid=BE45A5E31B322825&resid=BE 45A5E31B322825!278&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno&wdo=1
Angol Ceredir
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=be45a5e31b322825&id=BE45A5E31B322825%211 94&authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno#!/view.aspx?cid=BE45A5E31B322825&resid= BE45A5E31B322825%21262&app=WordPdf&authkey=%21AAVhtc9jjDglhno&w do=1
Gilgeam Grayhem
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=be45a5e31b322825&id=BE45A5E31B322825!194 &authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno#!/view.aspx?cid=BE45A5E31B322825&resid=BE 45A5E31B322825!290&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno&wdo=1
Akoran
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=be45a5e31b322825&id=BE45A5E31B322825%211 94&authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno#!/view.aspx?cid=BE45A5E31B322825&resid= BE45A5E31B322825%21259&app=WordPdf&authkey=%21AAVhtc9jjDglhno&w do=1
Kirom Lancaster
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=be45a5e31b322825&id=BE45A5E31B322825!194 &authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno#!/view.aspx?cid=BE45A5E31B322825&resid=BE 45A5E31B322825!307&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno&wdo=1
Revin Bitter
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=be45a5e31b322825&id=BE45A5E31B322825!194 &authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno#!/view.aspx?cid=BE45A5E31B322825&resid=BE 45A5E31B322825!335&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno&wdo=1
Adin Lir
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=be45a5e31b322825&id=BE45A5E31B322825%211 94&authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno#!/view.aspx?cid=BE45A5E31B322825&resid= BE45A5E31B322825%21258&app=WordPdf&authkey=%21AAVhtc9jjDglhno&w do=1
Aleil Sylvari
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=be45a5e31b322825&id=BE45A5E31B322825!194 &authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno#!/view.aspx?cid=BE45A5E31B322825&resid=BE 45A5E31B322825!260&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno&wdo=1
Grey
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=be45a5e31b322825&id=BE45A5E31B322825!194 &authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno#!/view.aspx?cid=BE45A5E31B322825&resid=BE 45A5E31B322825!291&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno&wdo=1
Grunk
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=be45a5e31b322825&id=BE45A5E31B322825!194 &authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno#!/view.aspx?cid=BE45A5E31B322825&resid=BE 45A5E31B322825!293&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AAVhtc9jjDglhno&wdo=1
Hope it's helpful!
Is the guide still being updated?
If so i would like to add this build