tony stark would benefit, i'd assume.
as for what type of golem? a troll-flesh golem or adamantine golem spring readily to mind.
Golem Armour? Where is that from and I can tell you.
I presume he is talking about the extra features from Ultimate Magic. When I first heard about the 'golem armor' option I was excited but once I read the rules the felt in complete. I still love the idea (come on, fantasy mechs!) but...seems it needs to go back to the workbench on this one. I love Paizo/Pathfinder but this is one where I think the all mighty fell short.
Depends on the caster, a few get casting in medium armor (magus for example, there are others). Main issue is those that can are usually the ones strapped for feats.
And I agree, I was excited about the blurb before UM and disappointed with what was provided in the book.
How is being strapped for Feats a hindrance? Especially for those that can get Cohorts.
Also seems it would be wonderful to add onto a Shield Golem just for the added security when traveling for those surprise rounds.
I can see my Magus and his Wizard Cohort making a Golem Armour Mithril/Adamantine Shield Golem.
Part of the problem is by pure mechanics only the creator of the golem can ride it then I think it says the golem has to be the same size, not bigger or smaller.
I didn't see anything in that description that said it had to be worn by it's creator, unless I missed something.
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I can see my Magus and his Wizard Cohort making a Golem Armour Mithril/Adamantine Shield Golem.
Is that two golems like armor/sidekick or can you make a set of mithral/adamantine shield golem armor for your magus?
I'm interested in doing this for a magus build I'm working on, so could I persuade you to clarify a bit?
I didn't see anything in that description that said it had to be worn by it's creator, unless I missed something.
The very first sentence.
I can see my Magus and his Wizard Cohort making a Golem Armour Mithril/Adamantine Shield Golem.
Is that two golems like armor/sidekick or can you make a set of mithral/adamantine shield golem armor for your magus?
I'm interested in doing this for a magus build I'm working on, so could I persuade you to clarify a bit?
I mean either a Mithril Shield Golem or an Adamantine Shield Golem.
And what I was getting at with the Wizard is he creates Metamagic Rods, Scrolls, and such allowing my Magus to focus on only the Feats he absolutely needs.
Now I am thinking of refining the Construct Armor rules...
All one needs is change the first 2 sentences to:
"This modification allows the construct to be worn like armor. So long as it is worn, the construct performs no independent actions, remaining under the control of the wearer, and any attacks directed at the wearer damage the construct."
And clarify the way it works with Materials.
My groups use "If the golem is Iron/Steel or weaker it counts as Steel. If it is made of Mithril, Adamantine or other superior material to Steel it counts as said material. It also always classifies as Masterwork Armour."
I think there is a bit more that needs to be changed. Size limitation of equal size. Lets face it, most likely we are going to want to put this Mod on a golem. Most Golems are large+ sizes. In fact I think most constructs are large+.
Second, the CR + and the cost are a bit high. The CR plus is completely not needed, and 35,000 to be able to wear it! Sure, your essentially putting on an extra set of Xd10 HP but still.
Of course there is the creator only bit, I rather seen something like the shield guardian where the wearer needs an amulet or such. I would have been fine with that.
Though, not of this talks about needed or not needing armor proficiency. Yes, it says breastplate for X but never really says if you need to be profiecent to gain full AC. Just saying.
I understand they were trying to keep it simple and save space but...still vague in some areas.
Size is easily modified. The CR+ is for GMs. You don't have to be proficient in armour to wear armour. You just need proficiency to avoid a Penalty. Heck my Wizard can pop on an Armoured Coat before combat then remove it after the Surprise round when I actually need to cast.
See the Silken Ceremonial Armour & Haramaki discussions elsewhere.
The price is cheap considering from what I remember it doesn't have to be added at creation.
I spoke to my GM about this a while-ago. There are monster mods, which would apply to golems, that reduce its size.
@Azaelas, We are both agreeing that the rules need modifying. We are just in disagreement about how much.
There is a lot of room for assumptions.
Personally, I like and try to use the rules 'as is' as much as possible. If there are no rules for something, I find something close and use that as my guidelines. I really don't use house rules in the games I run.
'As is' I would not allow Construct Armor Mod in a game I ran but I don't think I would need to because it rather impractically for a player using them 'as is'. This is all I am real saying.
As a player I would not use them, and as a GM I would not use them without much modifying.
Young Iron Golem. or for the Halfling Wizard Young(x2) Iron Golem.
Young Iron Golem. or for the Halfling Wizard Young(x2) Iron Golem.
Make all large golems size medium.
Creatures with the young template are immature specimens of the base creature. You can also use this simple template to easily create a smaller variant of a monster. This template cannot be applied to creatures that increase in power through aging or feeding (such as dragons or barghests) or creatures that are Fine-sized.
Quick Rules: +2 on all Dex-based rolls, –2 on all other rolls, –2 hp/HD.
Rebuild Rules: Size decrease by one category; AC reduce natural armor by –2 (minimum +0); Attacks decrease damage dice by 1 step; Ability Scores –4 Strength, –4 Con, +4 size bonus to Dex.
Using the young template could very much work, if you make sure adjust the price of the base construct.
My real issues are coming from this, using our Iron Golem as an example:
Do you have access to breath attack?
Are you using the Golem's strength score of 24?
Do you have access to the Golem's slam attacks?
Does the magic immunities apply to you? ie
Does electric attacks slow you down?
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Using the young template could very much work, if you make sure adjust the price of the base construct.
My real issues are coming from this, using our Iron Golem as an example:
Do you have access to breath attack?
Are you using the Golem's strength score of 24?
Do you have access to the Golem's slam attacks?
Does the magic immunities apply to you? ie
Does electric attacks slow you down?
Basically it is just Armour that doesn't reduce your speed.
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It's a breastplate which doesn't reduce your speed, and adds on a bucket-load of extra (virtual) Hit Points... which is a lot more boring than what everyone (or at least me...) assumed the thing was meant to be when first reading that section in Ultimate Magic. Magical power armour FTW! But no... as it is, it could potentially be very nice stuff if you happen to be built for it (maybe for a Arcane Duelist Bard, Magus, or ElK 'fighter-wizard' type), but most folks would prefer to spend their hard on ca$h on more usual magical armour, I imagine (or even a standard golem, which would be a ton and a half more useful than one of these things to most folks...).
EDIT: Felt I should expand on the above a bit. What I mean is that construct armour is likely to only be seen as a useful option for folk who've given up on AC - such as characters who rely on spells (blur, mirror image, etc.) to avoid getting the tar beaten out of them in combat. When they do get hit, the extra 'buffer' Hit Points are more useful to them than the higher AC they would have had if they'd invested in 'normal' magical armour.
Weirdly, one thing you don't want in construct armour is the base construct to actually be immune to any damage types - 'cos then the damage just hits you instead. So you want a base construct with lots of Hit Points and no immunities, if you can find one...
This should help.Using the young template could very much work, if you make sure adjust the price of the base construct.
My real issues are coming from this, using our Iron Golem as an example:
Do you have access to breath attack?
Are you using the Golem's strength score of 24?
Do you have access to the Golem's slam attacks?
Does the magic immunities apply to you? ie
Does electric attacks slow you down?
Thanks
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Well that stinks, but I still want to find a way to make this work for my magus build.
Let's just assume high level for a moment and assume we have piles of money for construction.
Could you put magical armor on your golem (that you are wearing) and give him proficiency through increased HD? Would that help any? Would those armor bonuses apply to you by proxy?
With the spell storing feature you could get off two spells first round if you were prepared and had a spell in your golem. Also, you could jump out of it and have a shield golem ready to go. That's not so bad.
I really wish these were more fleshed out, as I think we all do. And I apologize if this post is very train-of-thought. I'm posting on the run.
This armor is probably best for classes that can cast Make Whole. This armor is a god-send for Clerics.
ThanksThis should help.Using the young template could very much work, if you make sure adjust the price of the base construct.
My real issues are coming from this, using our Iron Golem as an example:
Do you have access to breath attack?
Are you using the Golem's strength score of 24?
Do you have access to the Golem's slam attacks?
Does the magic immunities apply to you? ie
Does electric attacks slow you down?
OMG! That is horrifying. I thought you would at-LEAST get the immunity. Not only does that make the armor next to useless for the price but makes NO SENSE what so ever.
Maybe have it add a bonus to your STR?
Also you can enchant golems to have magical armour properties and bonuses.
Here's my 2 cp...
Use the normal construct stats as follows:
Armor bonus from wearing is equal to the natural armor bonus of the construct.
Use the Str Mod of the construct as an enhancement bonus to wearers Str.
Max Dex is equal to the Dex mod of the construct.
ACP and Spell Failure are as a MW Breastplate. (Since I can't find any better way to derive these from the constructs stats.)
Speed and movement modes are as the construct.
Gain access to the construct's defenses and special attacks.
(You ARE still controlling it, after all.)
DR and/or hardness becomes DR/Adamantine. (They are objects after all.)
(And only take the highest if it has more than one.)
Fast/Natural healing only benefits the Constructs HP. (Though this could also be overcome with appropriate magic.)
Don't get the ability to not breathe, sleep or eat. (Unless you specifically add those enhancements in as additional magic items or already have them.)
Remember that per the modification rules these things are moddable but at high prices which seems an ok balance point for the bonuses you are receiving. (And for non CIY types, having to put the Shield Guardian mod on is basically a requirement.)
How's that grab you. IMHO, quick, easy and worth the mountain of gold you're going to plunk down.
I presume he is talking about the extra features from Ultimate Magic. When I first heard about the 'golem armor' option I was excited but once I read the rules the felt in complete. I still love the idea (come on, fantasy mechs!) but...seems it needs to go back to the workbench on this one. I love Paizo/Pathfinder but this is one where I think the all mighty fell short.
Agreed, I suggest synthesist for the Iron Man feel.
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It works well for any caster that can cast in armor or has the Still Spell Meta Feat. I actually got to use this with a modified Clockwork Soldier and used the Limb modification on a construct i designed to have an at will Burning Hands ability. It got more fun when i made 10 Rune Guards with Magic Missile that floated behind me.
Maybe have it add a bonus to your STR?
Also you can enchant golems to have magical armour properties and bonuses.
A simple mod to make the wearer immune to the same elemental type would be a good start IMHO.
Some clarifying thoughts while I'm on lunch...
Any ability which changes the form or shape of the construct that the wearer can not perform results in the removal of the construct. (If you want your mithral golem suit to squeeze through the space under that door, it goes, you don't.)
While wearing the construct, you do not gain immunity to mind affecting spells or effects. (Your mind, not the machines. Also something you could magic item into the "suit".)
The ACP and spell failure of Breastplate and Heavy Steel Shield are for constructs that do not already have these stats. If you animate an armor or shield, you get whatever ACP and spell failure it has.
Any thoughts on this?
If you add the Golem Armor modification, is the golem still active when the "wearer" is no longer inside of it?
If you add the Golem Armor modification, is the golem still active when the "wearer" is no longer inside of it?
From what I've read, that would be the only time it is active as an independent entity as it pretty much "turns off" it's brain while being worn.
It works well for any caster that can cast in armor or has the Still Spell Meta Feat.
Seems like it would also work fairly well for a wizard using wands along with the Staff-Like Wand discovery to spam a specific spell or two.
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First of all, I love construct armour. Absolutly love it!
Second of all, it is so poorly thought out and designed as to make me cry :'(
Problems with construct armour;
1: golem has to be same size as creator.
2: golem can only be worn by creator.
3: what does the golem actually provide you defensive wise? Only works against things that your AC work against. No protection against magic of almost any sort. You gain its DR/hardness and its pool of hps.
4: Can you use the golems slam attacks? How about manufactured weapons that you can create into the golem?
5: Can you use a golems special qualities or special attacks?
6: You can specifically enchant a golem to have magic weapons or armour. Can you benefit from this at all?
7: Who carries who? A stone golem weighs 3000 lbs! do you carry that or does it support itself? does it carry you? The golem has its own carrying capacity correct?
8: What happens when the golem gets destroyed?
9: What happens if you cast teleport or somesuch?
10: Can a golem use its own feats or skills?
11: How does the brain bioconstruct modification work?
12: Cost. Friggin expensive is what this is! A stone golem costs 90 000gps stock. when you add in the cost for extra Hd (almost mandatory)(52,500 for 7), brain construct (22,750) and an armour enhancement (say +1 medium fortification, 8,000) and you are looking at 173,250gp if you crafted it yourself. You are looking at half of a 17th level characters wealth there...
Now onto the question, who would benefit from this? Who would even want to use this?
Most martial characters would love to option of wearing a near indestructible suit of armour. How about a suit of armour that can do all sorts of funky powerful things and can turn into its own creature? Hells yes! Barbarians ignoring AC completely and wearing a suit granting massive extra hps as well as its own DR and with its own special abilities would be a welcome sight.
A cleric or other divine caster would greatly appreciate the boost to survivability that this would grant, especially if they have plans on sticking near the front lines all the time.
Someone who plans on using the armour itself, not just wear it. For example a gunslinger wearing a cannon golem and applying all its abilities to the cannon on its arm (assuming it even can).
A real good combo would be to have someone who can cast transmute mud to rock or wear a spell storing armour enhancement with this and wear a stone golem. They are quite sturdy and are instantly healed of all hps at a single cast of this! Helps prevent the 'was a golem, now useless pebbles' effect. >.>
A fighter with the master craftsman line of feats would also enjoy the benefits of golem armour and would be able to craft them himself.
For what its worth, here is the re-write that we came up with for this. It should address MOST of the problems associated.
Requirements: Craft Construct, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, animate objects
CR increase: +1 (for GM use only)
Cost: 35,000 gp
This modification allows the construct to be worn like armor. So long as the creator (or someone the creator allows to command it) wears it and is the same size as the construct, the construct performs no independent actions, uses the wearers initiative and cannot take any actions of its own while remaining under the control of the wearer. Any attacks directed at the wearer first damage the construct. Physical attacks are first affected by the wearers AC then subject to the golems DR or hardness and finally deducted from the golems hp total. A characters DR or other source of damage mitigation is ignored while the golem is worn. If the target of a spell or similar ability, first apply the golems spell resistance or immunities if any then have the spell affect the wearer as normal (spell resistance, will saves, ect). In effect the golem wearer gets 2 chances to save from each effect (being surrounded in 2 tons of magic dampening rock provides extraordinary protection). If the golem fails its spell resistance, it also gets affected by the spell if it is a valid target (fireball would affect him where dominate person would not). Alternatively a spell can be directed to affect the golem only, counting as if the wearer wasn't there. A golem must attempt to save against every spell being cast at it unless specifically commanded not to. Note that since most golems are immune to magic this can be a potent defence against spells. There are 2 exceptions. The first is when the wearer targets himself with a personal or self only spell (not a touch spell) he can affect himself unimpeded. The second is spells with the mind effecting discriptor and spells of the illusion school which affect the wearer normally.
When a construct is destroyed while serving as armor, the wearer loses all the benefits of the armor, but retains all the hindrances until the armor is removed, specifically ASF, ACP, maximum dex bonus, reduced speed and its weight (the golem no longer carries the wearer). Removing the golem armor takes the same amount of time that removing breastplate armor does. Any damage dealt to the golem in excess of its total hps is not transfered over to the wearer. If the construct is still active, the creator can order the removal of the armor with a swift action, at which point the construct leaves the creator’s space and enters a space adjacent to the creator. If no space is available the armor cannot be removed. Donning construct armor takes a full-round action if the construct is still active while you cannot don destroyed armor. Armor so destroyed can only be restored with a carefully worded wish or miracle which would bring the armor back to 1 hp and still in pieces. Further magic would then be required to put the body back together and then repair it back to full functionality. Alternatively you can use a craft check equal to the check used to create it +10 after the wish spell to reassemble it, counting as having half the raw materials (requiring you to supply the other half of the materials). Failing this check by 5 or more causes the golem to be destroyed requiring high level magic to bring it back again. Any effects that activate on death (like the clockwork golems death burst) affect the wielder for maximum effect with no save. A construct armor counts as carrying its wearer and all his possessions (the wearer can still be encumbered if he is carrying to much weight despite himself being carried).
While worn the wielder can chose to use his own arms or the arms of the construct, but not both. If using his own arms, the construct arms hang listlessly to the side and grant no benefit nor can they be used. While using the constructs arms the wearer can use any weapon or natural attack those arms possess using the golems str and dex while his own arms are considered full (he cannot cast spells using them nor can he hold a weapon ect.). Switching between controlling the golems arms and using his own requires a move action while dropping a held object or otherwise freeing said hands might require further actions. While worn you can use any special ability or power the golem has normally but this may be subject to GM discretion (you can use a stone golems slow breath freely while a clockwork golems 'wall of gears' would not be usable with you inside via GM discretion). While worn, you benefit as if you were wearing masterwork breastplate (+6 armor bonus, +3 max dex bonus, -3 ACP, 25% ASF) and any enhancements affect you normally while worn (this is an exception to the Basic Construct Armor Modification normally affecting the constructs natural armor bonus).
When creating a construct, the creator has a few template options at his disposal. The GM is encouraged to add or subtract to these as he sees fit.
Clockwork construct. Apply as stated.
Shield guardian. Apply as stated.
Advanced. Cost =30,000. Only applies to Str, Dex and Wis. +1 CR
Minor. Apply as stated with following modifications: No reduction to con, reduce bonus hitpoints based on Table:Construct size and bonus hitpoints, +2 size bonus to Dex, halve its height, length, and width and divide its weight by 8, reduce its raw materials cost by half. +0 CR
Giant. Apply as stated with following modifications: No increase to con, increase bonus hitpoints based on Table:Construct size and bonus hitpoints, double its height, length, and width and multiply its weight by 8, Increase its raw materials cost by a factor of 8. +1 CRA final few words of warning. Certain spells and effects, especially those that relocate the target can behave rather oddly. Casting etherealness while inside the construct sends you to the ethereal plane while leaving your armor behind on the material plane. Similarly casting teleport would only teleport you and leave your construct behind. Specific spells like gate may be required to travel while other people might only require less advanced methods of travel. GMs are encouraged to apply other limitations that carrying around 2 tons of rock might create as the rules stated here are noticeably more powerful than those provided in the core rulebook.
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Size is easily modified. The CR+ is for GMs. You don't have to be proficient in armour to wear armour. You just need proficiency to avoid a Penalty. Heck my Wizard can pop on an Armoured Coat before combat then remove it after the Surprise round when I actually need to cast.
See the Silken Ceremonial Armour & Haramaki discussions elsewhere.
The price is cheap considering from what I remember it doesn't have to be added at creation.
*Young* Golem? :p
Edit: I see I'm late to the party. :p
Yup :D I renamed it minor in my variant rules.
Welcome to the party EldonG!