first: I know this is a game and real life to game comparisons are difficult
second: I know that the 6 seconds to a round rule is just a mechanical convention not to be taken TOO seriously.
third: I know that people are going to ignore 1 and 2 and take the following as a personal affront to their gaming enjoyment.
having said that.
Does any one else find the six second rule as a bit too short. It works for the convention of melee combat... sort of.
but in the longer term its really quite short.
consider that most battles against mobs and dragons take about 30 seconds.
people hustle faster than most real people can sprint.
in fact.. if you have ever done a full dungeon clearing in rounds it probably takes no more than 10 or 15 mins for a major AP dungeon.
Im not saying it should change... doing so would wreak havoc with mechanics and spell conventions.
personally I just make things out of rounds and general descriptions of events into more realistic times.
I am just wondering what you all think about RAW time conventions.
I don't think it's too short. If you were in good shape (and any adventurer will be) you could leg it 30 feet in 6 seconds and have time to smack a guy probably.
I don't think it's too short. If you were in good shape (and any adventurer will be) you could leg it 30 feet in 6 seconds and have time to smack a guy probably.
But could you shoot 6 Longbow arrows?
I don't think it's too short. If you were in good shape (and any adventurer will be) you could leg it 30 feet in 6 seconds and have time to smack a guy probably.But could you shoot 6 Longbow arrows?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o9RGnujlkI
Yeah, its a "shortbow" but i've seen as fast with other bows. Just look up speed archery on youtube
I don't think it's too short. If you were in good shape (and any adventurer will be) you could leg it 30 feet in 6 seconds and have time to smack a guy probably.But could you shoot 6 Longbow arrows?
In real life trained archers were some BAMFs.
Given you have all arrows on hand, maybe firing 2 at once to save time, and magical help, it's especially possible.
I think it's too long.
In 6 seconds, a regular 10-th level fighter can only hit twice with its sword...
first: I know this is a game and real life to game comparisons are difficult
second: I know that the 6 seconds to a round rule is just a mechanical convention not to be taken TOO seriously.
third: I know that people are going to ignore 1 and 2 and take the following as a personal affront to their gaming enjoyment.
having said that.
Does any one else find the six second rule as a bit too short. It works for the convention of melee combat... sort of.
but in the longer term its really quite short.
consider that most battles against mobs and dragons take about 30 seconds.
people hustle faster than most real people can sprint.
in fact.. if you have ever done a full dungeon clearing in rounds it probably takes no more than 10 or 15 mins for a major AP dungeon.
Im not saying it should change... doing so would wreak havoc with mechanics and spell conventions.
personally I just make things out of rounds and general descriptions of events into more realistic times.
I am just wondering what you all think about RAW time conventions.
Back in the dark ages there were 10 melee rounds in a turn in AD&D. A melee round was 1 minute, a turn 10 minutes. Movement, etc. was the same in a melee round as it was in a turn iirc. The turn involved exploration, wondering around, mapping etc. Given the distances moved, etc. it was an overly long time for what you could do. A six second melee round and 1 minute exploration turn makes perfect sense to me. Not coincidentally, that's what I do.
*Cough* 13+ arrow with improved snap shot and combat reflexes *cough*I don't think it's too short. If you were in good shape (and any adventurer will be) you could leg it 30 feet in 6 seconds and have time to smack a guy probably.But could you shoot 6 Longbow arrows?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o9RGnujlkI
Yeah, its a "shortbow" but i've seen as fast with other bows. Just look up speed archery on youtube
Eh, by the time you could do that the fighter can survive a fall from orbit, swim in lava, and punch a hole through a steel wall. 3 arrows in 1.5 seconds is attainable, that's 12 arrows in a round (though I don't think anybody could actually do the 1.5 second trick 4 times in a row without pause).
The welsh longbowmen could fire a little over 15 arrows a minute and this was with a 90lb+ bow and accurately hit a target at over 200yrds. So this would equal to about 2 arrows a round without magical support. And as notabot mentioned by the time you can really do those whole 6+ shots a round you can also swim thru lava and contact beings from other planes and bend them to your will so with definitely entered into the realm of "fantasy" by that point.
As for the 6sec being to short or to long I would agree when it comes to movement rate sometimes specially with high speed things like monks. Outside of that fights in real life don't last very long when it comes to wielding sharp pointy objects and sticking them into people. Watch a couple higher dan kendo videos and you will see how fast a fight can happen.
I am curious about the hustling faster than a sprinter statement.
Hustle = 60feet per round. 600 rounds per hour. 60*600/5280 = 6.818mph.
Far less than sprinters.
Pathfinder Run = 13.636mph
Now for the comparisons:
Usain Bolt can run very short distances (sprints) at a speed of 27.79mph.
The 24hour long distance running record for 2012 is approximately 7.18mph (converted from kph).
In between those two points is the IAAF Marathon (IAAF is the international marathon governing body) at a distance of 26.22miles. The fastest marathoner ran that distance in 2.06hours. An average speed of 12.72mph.
In short: I see no problem with the hustling speed. Pathfinder makes long distance running (sprinting) very difficult so there is no problem with that either.
I do however agree that there are certain things in pathfinder that should not be possible. Example: primitive muzzleloaders firing 3 shots per round at level 6 in the space of 6 seconds.
- Gauss
all fair points.
however agree that there are certain things in pathfinder that should not be possible. Example: primitive muzzleloaders firing 3 shots per round at level 6 in the space of 6 seconds.
Is the rapid-fire primitive muzzleloader any more impossible than gargantuan fire-breathing flying lizards who are smarter than Albert Einstein?
No? Then let the gunslinger have his fun! ^^
I think 6sec/round is a good enough approximation, as it makes calculating the duration of effects that last X-minutes-per-level a lot easier.
And okay, shooting 6 arrows every 6 second against moving targets in the middle of combat and still hit most(maybe even all) of your targets may be impossible... for us, real people, who are at best 2nd level commoners, experts or warriors...
A 11th level fighter? A man so powerful that he can (supposedly) beat a tyranossaurus or a Bone Devil all by himself? That is very possible.
Remember: Captain America is 5th~6th level. Hercules is about 8th.
Lemmy, gargantuan fire-breathing flying lizards can do that due to magic. rapid-fire primitive muzzleloader is not using magic. At no point in the history of firearms could a primitive muzzleloader be fired that fast. I have NO problem with magic being used to do that. I have a significant problem with a 3rd level musket user firing 2shots in 6seconds. The best musketmen in the world only managed 1shot in 20seconds.
- Gauss
At no point in the history of firearms were they used by a 10th-level gunslinger. Probably not even by a 6th level character! Who knows what kind of skill such character has!
And dragons don't need magic to fly. Or speak. Or... you know... being ageless lizards who breath-fire and are absurdly intelligent.
A low-level rogue inside a completely empty 10x10x10ft cell could take a fireball in the face and still escape completelly unharmed.
Hah! A mid-level monk has at least a 5% chance of surviving a nuclear explosion at ground zero! Not even radiation would harm them, as monks eventually become immune to poison and disease.
Why should casters have all the fun? I say we let everyone do fantastic stuff as long as their level is high enough.
Shoot that firearm 10x in 6 seconds! Trip that gargantuan creature! Sunder that mountain! That's what legends do!
One of the causes of the "martials-can't-have-nice-things" problem is the fact that people insist in restricting mundane characters to a notion of realism that does not make sense above 4th~5th level.
1 shot in 20 seconds? Sounds believable. But not fun in a fantasy RPG. I would have been fine without any firearms in the game, but they're here, so we can let them have their fun too.
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And dragons don't need magic to fly. Or speak. Or... you know... being ageless lizards who breath-fire and are absurdly intelligent.
While it is true they don't need magic to fly or speak, they do need magic to breathe fire. Breath weapons are Supernatural abilities (Su), and as such go away in anti-magic fields. They are magical in nature.
While it is true they don't need magic to fly or speak, they do need magic to breathe fire. Breath weapons are Supernatural abilities (Su), and as such go away in anti-magic fields. They are magical in nature.And dragons don't need magic to fly. Or speak. Or... you know... being ageless lizards who breath-fire and are absurdly intelligent.
I didn't say breathing fire... I said "being ageless lizards who breath-fire and are absurdly intelligent."
the simple fact that they are ageless lizards who breath fire and are absurdly intelligent is already much more fantastical than shooting incredibly fast with an old firearm.
Lemmy and Ciaran, I think you misunderstood my point. My point was not a call to nerf gunslingers because they fire too fast. My point was that there is no problem with a 6second turn as related to movement but there are other things that occur too fast in a 6second turn (such as firearms).
Lemmy, a 3rd level Musket Master can fire 2 shots per round. 1shot every 3 seconds. Historically the best in the world could only pull off 1 in 20seconds. I happen to shoot muzzleloaders. I think it is rediculous that they shoot that fast. I think PF could have gone a completely different route. (I would have used the Dead Shot mechanic as the base mechanic without charging deed points.)
Ciaran: I would have been fine either way. I think firearms are fine, I think the implementation is flawed (both in the extremely high damage that is done and in concept).
- Gauss
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Some of the fastest guys in the NFL run 40-yard dashes around 4.4 (on average)seconds. That's 27.27 feet per second.
Even the offensive and defensive linemen (based on the results of the 2012 rookie combine)can run 40-yards in about 5-5.5 seconds.
There's also a sense of time dilation that occurs during times of stress or intense activity. 6 seconds during a football play or karate sparring match (watch a kung fu movie with a stopwatch sometime) feels like an eternity. There've been an armload of papers written (by real scientists, no less) that examine this phenomenon.
Considering all the things those players do in 6-8 seconds (the average length of a play, depending on the source), and that time dilation thing, Pathfinder's movement rates and the length of a round is pretty acceptable in my book.
We are in agreement that it is flawed. But we could simply decide that the fantasy guns operate more easily than our real world counterparts.
Ciaran, I am fine with that too. Admittedly I am not fine with the high dpr but that is another discussion.
- Gauss
Ciaran, I am fine with that too. Admittedly I am not fine with the high dpr but that is another discussion.
- Gauss
Gunslingers are primarly a damage dealing class, if they aren't even in the ballpark of other damage dealers then why would one ever play them?
Lemmy and Ciaran, I think you misunderstood my point. My point was not a call to nerf gunslingers because they fire too fast. My point was that there is no problem with a 6second turn as related to movement but there are other things that occur too fast in a 6second turn (such as firearms).
Lemmy, a 3rd level Musket Master can fire 2 shots per round. 1shot every 3 seconds. Historically the best in the world could only pull off 1 in 20seconds. I happen to shoot muzzleloaders. I think it is rediculous that they shoot that fast. I think PF could have gone a completely different route. (I would have used the Dead Shot mechanic as the base mechanic without charging deed points.)
- Gauss
I see your point, but that's the thing...An elite shooter whos is among the top 5 best firearm specialist in the real world is probably a 5th level warrior (with NPC attributes)... Maybe a 3rd level gunslinger? I dunno, something like that.
I do not doubt your proficiency and skill with firearms, I just doubt you (or any real person that ever existed!) is higher than 6th level.
Who knows, maybe if an elite shooter became immortal somehow and was capable of reaching the skill level of a legendary character (such as Hercules, Achiles, Siegfried and other mythical heroes), he could be capable of shooting 10x times with a musket. He'd be able to use, reload and shoot antique firearms in ways we can even fathom, because we're not even close to being skilled enough.
Lemmy, I would also say that nobody has ever been higher than level 6. So what can a level 1 gunslinger do? He can fire 1shot every 6 seconds with a primitive rifle. That is over 3 times faster than the best trained shooters in history. So right off the bat we have to pretend these guns have nothing to do with history. NP I can live with that.
What bugs me more is that a properly built musket master can out dpr just about anything inside 40feet.
Mechanically it is just not that sound imo.
-Gauss
P.S. While I do shoot them I do not claim any great skill with muzzleloaders (or recurve bows for that matter). However it does not take great skill to study history. :)
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Lemmy, I would also say that nobody has ever been higher than level 6. So what can a level 1 gunslinger do? He can fire 1shot every 6 seconds with a primitive rifle. That is over 3 times faster than the best trained shooters in history. So right off the bat we have to pretend these guns have nothing to do with history. NP I can live with that.
What bugs me more is that a properly built musket master can out dpr just about anything inside 40feet.
Mechanically it is just not that sound imo.
-Gauss
P.S. I do not claim any great skill with muzzleloaders (or recurve bows for that matter). However it does not take great skill to study history. :)
It sounds like you have more problems with the gunslinger and less with the actual '6 seconds per round' thing.
Karui, I never claimed to have a problem with 6second rounds. In fact I was initially refuting the ops movement related problem with 6second rounds. Then I stated that I did have a problem with certain things being allowed such as firearms. We have been on that tangent since.
- Gauss
Lemmy, I would also say that nobody has ever been higher than level 6. So what can a level 1 gunslinger do? He can fire 1shot every 6 seconds with a primitive rifle. That is over 3 times faster than the best trained shooters in history. So right off the bat we have to pretend these guns have nothing to do with history. NP I can live with that.
What bugs me more is that a properly built musket master can out dpr just about anything inside 40feet.
Mechanically it is just not that sound imo.
-Gauss
Fair point.
I'll just add that I like gunslingers, but I hate PF's firearm mechanics. Isn't it fun how no armor can protect you from gunfire (even a adamantine golem is easily pierced) but dodging bullets is actually very doable?
Hey, maybe those kevlar vests used by cops and the military are actually Belts of Incredible Dexterity?
It'd make more sense if it targeted flat-footed AC, but that would make it too good for any character with sneak attack. So why not simply make it use the same rules as a crossbow instead of making firearms the worst weapon ever (unless you're a gunslinger, in whiche case they become the best weapon ever).
^Lemmy, there's a reason why plate armor and such fell into disuse. It was utterly worthless even against early firearms.
^Lemmy, there's a reason why plate armor and such fell into disuse. It was utterly worthless even against early firearms.
Actually, I'm pretty sure armor and firearms shared the battlefield for a somewhat long time. But those "bullet-proof" armors were very expensive, while firearms were relatively cheap and easy to use.
But even if that's not the case, tell me how a random iron bullet (or lead... or steel... or silver... or whatever) completely ignores adamantine armor!
It would be nice if fire arms were slower had a significant advantage when the shooter is left ignored. As is, it might as well be just another fighter wailing on his enemy until it dies (although the extra class features are nice).
^Lemmy, there's a reason why plate armor and such fell into disuse. It was utterly worthless even against early firearms.
Armor fell into disuse because it cost too much. Its much cheaper fielding mercenaries or conscripts armed with firearms than to field heavily armored soldiers.
At anything longer than point blank a musket ball has a hard time penetrating plate. A riffled barrel can help extend the effective range, but those were slower firing until the invention of ammo that could be loaded quicker (minie ball? I don't recall exactly)
http://www.allenantiques.com/Armour-Suits-ForSale.html Shows a good example of a breastplate with the proof mark right in the center of it. A quick google search shows other 17th century examples.
I'm just guessing here... But if the bullet is made of a softer material than the armor, shouldn't it be damaged instead of the armor? Or just ricochet?
We see that happen in real life. We have vests that can stop bullets. And tanks that pretty much ignore firearm from many modern firearms!
And not one of those things is made of adamantine, a fanstastical metal who is supposedly one of the hardest substances in a fantasy world!
Yay science!
Thanks for the great post, TL, it makes a very interesting read.
That said:
The force is obviously the same on both objects, but it affects one to a much lesser degree? Right?
Like you said, tanks take minor damage from bullets, while said bullets are probably destroyed on impact, right?
And those tanks are not made of adamantine. And those guns and bullets are much more powerful than the ones commonly seen in PF games, right?
So, anyway, a bullet should not be capable of completely ignoring armor. Unless said armor is made of wood or something like that.
So it took you 3 (admitedly interesting) posts to basically say we agree?
Heh... Gotta love the internet...
I think giving firearms the same mechanics of crossbows woudl be good enough. But every RPG designer wants to give firearms their own unique mechanics and amazing advantage. Then, in order to make it balanced, they adds some stupid drawback. In the end, all we get are clunky mechanics that do little more than needlessy complicate the game.
And all that could be easily avoided by giving firearms the same mechanics as "similar" ranged weapons, such as crossbows, but with different attributes (maybe a higher critical multiplier, or larger base damage die).