Endless Power requiring 5th level spells

Player Feedback

Put is shortly, I think the requirement of Endless Power to be able to cast 5th level spells is unnecessary. The prerequisite of being a Tier 6 Archmage/Hierophant is more than enough to keep this ability limited (for a moment, let's assume that being able to cast infinite spells potentially up to level 3 can pass for "limited" in some way).

All the second requirement does is favor full casters over other classes who might potentially want this ability. Six level casters can qualify for it whole 4 levels after cerics, witches and wizards, while four level casters don't qualify at all. I see no reason for this, considering full casters already can cast many more spells (including those of higher level) and tend to have better spell lists. If we assume the ability to be balanced in the hands of a 9th level wizard, it's definitely balanced in the hands of a 9th level bard or paladin.

Paladins and Rangers especially could benefit greatly from this ability - they aren't the most likely classes to tread the path of the Hierophant, I'll give you that, but I can see a lot of appeal in a "Holy Man" paladin at least. Plus, they are already the weakest classes that can call themselves "casters", so the buff at mythic tier would be handy.


Maybe requirement for casting 5th level spells could be replaced with caster level 9th or 10th?

Yeah, caster level seems like a much more sensible requirement to me.

That'd be good. Still a bit punishing to Paladins and Rangers, but take what you can get - and they're objectively a fringe case anyway.

Hm, I'm mixed on the caster level requirement vs caster level check.

While, yeah Paladins and Rangers might be "fringe cases", what of the super common Magi? A Magus who has UNLIMITED shocking grasps a day is a scary though... If he has to wait till 5th level spells that's a bit more reasonable though.

Well, the Magus already has a lot of shocking grasps if he wants them. And he can meet that 5th level spells requirement already, albeit at caster level 13. So a change here would open up the ability to 4-level casters and just make it come a few levels earlier to the Magus.

I believe its mostly for magus, inquisitor, and bards

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Moved this to the Player Feedback forum.

As for the thoughts here, that is something I considered, but the spell level restriction is placed in here to prevent a number of abuses, some of those being that some of the limited spellcasting classes get some spells at lower levels than the full casting class counterparts, in part to balance out their reduced rate. This would really open up a few loopholes that have me concerned.

That said.. it is likely that Endless Power is going to see a number of changes so all of this might be a moot point.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

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