So a guy goes running head first into a wall....


Rules Questions


Let's say a character goes running and assumes there is no wall in front of him (it's an illusion and there IS a wall), would he take damage from slamming into it?

Does major illusion allow you to even make it look like a road continues on when there's a wall? In fact, can major illusion even create SEVERAL illusory creatures?


Interesting question, however Illusions are a tricky business at the best of time.

I wouldn't allow damage, but the will save would still be required, if he passes, he runs right through it. Fails, he stops and feel as if he hit a wall.

Dark Archive

Well, if you bull rush, you deal no damage to yourself or target. If you bull rush your target into an unmovable object, you deal no damage to your target, yourself or the object. So I'd say running into a wall deals no damage. Feel free to say "ow!" when it happens though to maintain immersion.

I'm not sure how'd you make an illusion of something not being there that really is. That sounds like invisibility, and you'd need to use invisibility for that.

As for making multiple creatures/objects, the description of silent image says "an object, creature, or force" I'd say just one per casting.


cmastah wrote:

Let's say a character goes running and assumes there is no wall in front of him (it's an illusion and there IS a wall),

I don't think you can have an illusion of no wall. Illusions are like 3D holographic models. You can't use an image for Invisibility.

If someone did run into a wall they didn't know was there, I'd make them take 1d6 damage, like if they were falling 10 feet. (They wouldn't be moving as fast as if they were falling, but wouldn't be protecting themselves either.)


Well, alright with the RAW, but if you try to run head on to a wall, you do take damage. A common person could die from it.

As for the illusion, RAW it seems that they can make 3D objects (or creatures) in opern spaces or overlapping occupying spaces, but not fake 3D in an illusion that in truth is 2D.
Yet, it's a fun thing (other than for the character slamming her head on it), so why not?
By the way, if you make it, you just invented 3D cinema without even stepping on all previous levels.


I agree with Matthew Downie. I would make them take 1d6 falling damage, maybe a bit more if it was a barbarian sprinting at the wall. If they're moving faster per round, then they'd hit the wall harder, right? You could maybe even work up a formula to determine the damage depending on the speed at which you hit the wall. It deals Xd6 damage, where X is the number of feet divided by ten (or twenty?) that the character would've exceeded the distance beyond the wall.
After all, the damage dealt for falling is determined by the distance fallen, because you build up speed while falling, so I don't see why running at a wall should be much different. It should just be lessened, obviously, because, unless you're Usain Bolt, you probably fall a lot faster than you can run.


As a quick option on how to rule it you could compare his running speed to the speed of a fall and use this as a guideline for the damage he takes.

As to RAW there is no damage: If I jump off a cliff and declare to bullrush someone on the ground do I take damage? I should not as I am not falling I am willingly bullrushing someone.

I could even say that I think I had seen indication that there is someone invisible down there and try to bullrush him.

Math for falling comparison:
Everything here is rounded and without looking something up from what I think I remember from physics classes.
1m ~ 3.3ft
If you fall you have an accelleration of about 10m/s²
So someone running has a speed of 30ft*4=120m/turn. If one turn =6sec that's 20ft/sec or 6m/sec.
When falling you reach the same speed after about 0.6 seconds after which you have fallen about 6m. As 6m ~ 20ft I'd say that running into a wall should deal damage equal to falling 20ft for which the rules give 2d6 damage.

If you find something wrong in this estimate (wasn't a real calculation with all that rounding and guessing) let me know.
Would perhaps have been easier to do just in feet but I'm used to using meters for calculation.


While I don't think the scenario you presented here would work, it is conceivable that a wall or door could be made invisible and a character could slam into it.

There is no RAW that covers this that I know of. However, as a GM I would resolve this the way that Umbranus does above.


cmastah wrote:
Let's say a character goes running and assumes there is no wall in front of him (it's an illusion and there IS a wall), would he take damage from slamming into it?

Since there are no rules to cover this, it'd be up to the GM.

cmastah wrote:
Does major illusion allow you to even make it look like a road continues on when there's a wall?

I don't see why not.

Matthew Downie wrote:
I don't think you can have an illusion of no wall. Illusions are like 3D holographic models. You can't use an image for Invisibility.

Major "Image" is not making something invisible, it's creating an illusion over something that is real. Like a moving picture blocking your view of what's behind it. If you make an illusion of a rug, you can't see the floor under the illusory rug. That doesn't make the rug invisible.

cmastah wrote:
In fact, can major illusion even create SEVERAL illusory creatures?

One Major "Image" spell can create one object, creature, or force.


My take on this -

As a illusion it's doable.

On running into it and taking damage - 1D6 is way too much. As I remember plenty of times running into walls and doors in the dark and while it hurts, most of the time it wasn't painful and I could walk it off.
If you have to deal damage, I suggest 1D3 nonlethal damage.


Matt2VK wrote:

My take on this -

As a illusion it's doable.

On running into it and taking damage - 1D6 is way too much. As I remember plenty of times running into walls and doors in the dark and while it hurts, most of the time it wasn't painful and I could walk it off.
If you have to deal damage, I suggest 1D3 nonlethal damage.

Gus Frerotte, the then QB of the Washington Redskins, for some unexplainable reason after throwing a touchdown decided to head-butt the end zone wall. The end zone walls are heavily padded and he was wearing a helmet. When he hit the wall he injured himself severely enough that he was out of the game for weeks afterward, and most observers say he was never the same again.

Running headlong into a wall is a potentially life-threatening event. You can break your neck.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Matt2VK wrote:

My take on this -

As a illusion it's doable.

On running into it and taking damage - 1D6 is way too much. As I remember plenty of times running into walls and doors in the dark and while it hurts, most of the time it wasn't painful and I could walk it off.
If you have to deal damage, I suggest 1D3 nonlethal damage.

Gus Frerotte, the then QB of the Washington Redskins, for some unexplainable reason after throwing a touchdown decided to head-butt the end zone wall. The end zone walls are heavily padded and he was wearing a helmet. When he hit the wall he injured himself severely enough that he was out of the game for weeks afterward, and most observers say he was never the same again.

Running headlong into a wall is a potentially life-threatening event. You can break your neck.

So is walking down the street and tripping over your own feet.

I'm just trying to take the average here.


Matt2VK wrote:


So is walking down the street and tripping over your own feet.

I'm just trying to take the average here.

As am I. And on average, running full-tilt into a solid wall is a very dangerous thing to do, and generally results in significant injuries ranging from concussions to broken bones. Check out your local emergency room to see how many smashed faces and neck injuries they deal with from people who WALKED into posts, walls or glass doors, much less hit them at full speed thinking they were running free and clear.


Player: I headbutt the wall.

GM: Roll.

Player: I rolled a 1.

GM: A 1! And since we're using critical fumbles.... (rolling dice, consulting charts)... You have injured yourself severely! That's 6 points of CON damage, and a 1 point of INT damage that's permanent!

Player: What?!?

GM: Hey, you're lucky you didn't break your neck.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Matt2VK wrote:


So is walking down the street and tripping over your own feet.

I'm just trying to take the average here.

As am I. And on average, running full-tilt into a solid wall is a very dangerous thing to do, and generally results in significant injuries ranging from concussions to broken bones. Check out your local emergency room to see how many smashed faces and neck injuries they deal with from people who WALKED into posts, walls or glass doors, much less hit them at full speed thinking they were running free and clear.

True - but I'm also comparing the damage to what the standard 1st level character takes when he get's hit by a weapon. Running into a wall does not normally deal the same damage as being hit by a weapon.


GM Jeff wrote:

Player: I headbutt the wall.

GM: Roll.

Player: I rolled a 1.

GM: A 1! And since we're using critical fumbles.... (rolling dice, consulting charts)... You have injured yourself severely! That's 6 points of CON damage, and a 1 point of INT damage that's permanent!

Player: What?!?

GM: Hey, you're lucky you didn't break your neck.

LOL, believe it or not, that's a fairly reasonable real-world result. Just ask Gus.

Of course this is a fantasy game. Which is why we use hit points to abstract out damage from weapons, falls and other events. So having someone receive hit point damage from running into a wall is perfectly reasonable.

Taking con and permanent int damage, while probably somewhat realistic, isn't following the abstraction of damage model that PF generally uses.


Matt2VK wrote:


True - but I'm also comparing the damage to what the standard 1st level character takes when he get's hit by a weapon. Running into a wall does not normally deal the same damage as being hit by a weapon.

Depends on the weapon. And the wielder.

Damage in PF is a fully abstracted concept. Hit point damage either does or does not represent actual physical damage depending on which developer you talk to and what mood they are in at the time.

The concept here is that we are comparing running into a wall to something that seems reasonably comparable, such as falling and hitting a solid floor.

You could say the same thing about falling to the floor as you are saying about hitting a wall, but the rules give hit point damage consequences for falling.

There are no rules for this, so do it how you like. I'm just saying that comparing running into a wall with falling ten or twenty feet is completely reasonable. That's all.


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Umbranus wrote:

As a quick option on how to rule it you could compare his running speed to the speed of a fall and use this as a guideline for the damage he takes.

As to RAW there is no damage: If I jump off a cliff and declare to bullrush someone on the ground do I take damage? I should not as I am not falling I am willingly bullrushing someone.

I could even say that I think I had seen indication that there is someone invisible down there and try to bullrush him.

** spoiler omitted **
If you find something wrong in this estimate (wasn't a real calculation with all that rounding and guessing) let me know.
Would perhaps have been easier to do just in feet but I'm used to using meters for calculation.

Your math is incorrect. The formula for determining the final velocity is:

v = square root of (2 * acceleration * distance)

Plugging in the numbers, for a 10 foot fall (1d6 damage), you hit the ground at 17mph, which equates to pretty close to 150'/round:

((17mph * 5280 feet per mile)/3600 seconds per hour)*6 seconds per round

Compare this to the Feather Fall spell which describes falling 60'/round as equivalent to dropping a few feet and does no damage.

So, unless the character was running at 150'/round I'd probably just have them be stunned, maybe take some minor damage depending on how fast they were going.

Also, I am having a hard time imagining a character running head-first into what they think is an open hallway. Headlong maybe, but not head-first.


The Oddity wrote:
Umbranus wrote:

As a quick option on how to rule it you could compare his running speed to the speed of a fall and use this as a guideline for the damage he takes.

As to RAW there is no damage: If I jump off a cliff and declare to bullrush someone on the ground do I take damage? I should not as I am not falling I am willingly bullrushing someone.

I could even say that I think I had seen indication that there is someone invisible down there and try to bullrush him.

** spoiler omitted **
If you find something wrong in this estimate (wasn't a real calculation with all that rounding and guessing) let me know.
Would perhaps have been easier to do just in feet but I'm used to using meters for calculation.

Your math is incorrect. The formula for determining the final velocity is:

v = square root of (2 * acceleration * distance)

Plugging in the numbers, for a 10 foot fall (1d6 damage), you hit the ground at 17mph, which equates to pretty close to 150'/round:

((17mph * 5280 feet per mile)/3600 seconds per hour)*6 seconds per round

Compare this to the Feather Fall spell which describes falling 60'/round as equivalent to dropping a few feet and does no damage.

So, unless the character was running at 150'/round I'd probably just have them be stunned, maybe take some minor damage depending on how fast they were going.

Also, I am having a hard time imagining a character running head-first into what they think is an open hallway. Headlong maybe, but not head-first.

Um.... velocity is defined as acceleration * time. So if you are being accelerated at 32 ft/sec*2, then after one second you are traveling at 32 feet per second (roughly 22 mph). In that time your distance traveled is v(0)*t + 1/2a*t^2 or 16 feet. 22mph would be a pretty good professional sprinter speed. So figure a heroic adventurer probably can make about 16mph in armor. That is at least equal to a ten foot fall.

Dark Archive

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Not a single mention of Coyote, Roadrunner and the train tunnel painted on a rock?

C'mon guys!


Matt2VK wrote:

My take on this -

As a illusion it's doable.

On running into it and taking damage - 1D6 is way too much. As I remember plenty of times running into walls and doors in the dark and while it hurts, most of the time it wasn't painful and I could walk it off.
If you have to deal damage, I suggest 1D3 nonlethal damage.

This would be my call too.


I see a lot of good suggestions, I think I'll probably go the route of 1d6 non-lethal and they fall prone (I don't want them dying an ignoble death :P). It's not going to be used for combat, what's going to happen is a creature is going to create an illusion of a rust monster and what I'm EXPECTING the players to do (since one of them values his Asian weapons, of which he can't find normally) is probably turn tail and run.

I brought up the major illusion (major image?) was because it said 'visual figment that cannot extend beyond four 10-ft. cubes
+ one 10-ft. cube/level', which I assumed meant it allowed for several things to be made that filled 10ft cubes.


I understand admantine dragon's calculation better than the odditie's (might be because of a combination of foreign languge and foreign dimensions).
I seem to have gotten something wrong but AD's stuff seems right.

I found a calculation (in german) that comes to the conclusion that a fall of 10 feet takes about 0.7 seconds and the end velocity is 6.68m/s or 6.78m/s depending on whether you factor in friction or not.So about 22ft/s which is only slightly faster than the normal run speed of a pathfinder pc.


It depends on the action towards this wall. If they were walking, I'd treat it like the multitude of videos you see of people walking into those glass doors and not realizing they're open.

If they're walking, or slowly moving: no damage, and if anyone else can see it, a temporary -CHR out of embarassment.

If they're running full speed as if escaping a monster or running as fast as they can down a hallway: 1d6, which accounts for just how you ran into the wall (nose broken vs bruised shoulder)

If a carriage/boat/horse/vehicle is involved: Have fun with that.

EDIT: yeah! the -CHR would potentially allow someone to fall unconscious from embarrassment! or is that another stat :(. I bet it could happen IRL too, someone panicking so bad about being seen making such a goofy mistake that they pass out.

Dark Archive

Lets look at what we have in the book + a little math.

a standard medium character moving along at 30' a round (6 seconds) is moving about 3.5 MPH. That same character doing a x4 run (moving about 120' in 6 seconds), is moving about 13.5 MPH. Someone falling for 6 seconds is going to hit the ground at about 17 MPH (pulled from Wolfram alpha).

Falling 10 feet does 1d6 damage and makes you prone. Running into a wall when expecting to move 120' in a round (x4 run for a 30' movement character) should do less then 1d6 to keep within the basic rules. My average would be 1d4/120' speed and staggered for 1 round. Only moving 60' I would consider an "intentional fall" and make it only 1d4 nonlethal with and acrobatics check to make it 0.

Unless you want to massively ramp up the falling damage to bring it into alignment.


If he hits the wall by casually walking into it, a few points of non-lethal damage (1d4-1d6 or so).

If he hits the wall by moving into it (a move action), more non-lethal damage (1d6-1d8 or so).

If he hits the wall in a full-on sprint (a run action), a few points of lethal damage (1d4-1d6 or so) and knocked prone.

All result in a save to see through the illusion.


In real life, I hate to admit this, I have walked, not ran... walked into a brick wall (was not paying attention and some of the brick wall was jutted out in a weird way). Just walking into a brick wall was enough to knock me unconscious for 3 hours.

Running into any type of wall (except the Japanese paper walls) would have AT LEAST, AT LEAST the same result.


A Ninja wrote:

Interesting question, however Illusions are a tricky business at the best of time.

I wouldn't allow damage, but the will save would still be required, if he passes, he runs right through it. Fails, he stops and feel as if he hit a wall.

This. If I could figure out some fast way of dealing "falling" damage like that, I'd have the runner take damage if they ran into a real wall. (So, smacking into the wall and not taking damage would alert the victim that it's not a real wall.)

Don't quite a few illusions automatically reveal themselves if you touch them? (I think Illusionary Wall, or whatever it's called, specifically avoids this.)


Illusions do not automatically reveal themselves. Once you interact with an illusion, you are allowed to save. If you fail the save, your mind tricks you into believing what you see is real and true. Many players try to power game through illusions - DMs need to stand firm and declare 'you think there is no wall, would you really do that?'

Dark Archive

Some of you seem to forget we are discussing the rules for Pathfinder, a fantasy adventure role-playing game, and not Pathfinder, a reality simulation experience.

But if we wanted to keep it "real" within the genre, action heroes walk through walls, not into them.


I'd do 1 nonlethal damage if a person failed a reflex DC 10 save and was walking into it, (kinda stupid to even mention this part)

1d4 nonlethal + 1d4 lethal if they were running or charging into it. DC 15 Reflex save for not falling prone and stunned for d4 rounds or something.

But obviously the DM can really choose whatever they want; be no ill effects, or even 2d6 damage or something (which isn't even that harsh if you're level 15 and charged into a crystal/concrete wall or something)

This would be a funny trap though; have someone carrying around a long invisible iron rod that they can set up as a trap. If someone walks/runs into it, they'd take damage to the head and chance of stunned/unconscious. (I guess the more popular thing is just setting a tripwire)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

from the telekinesis spell (to compare to existing PF rules)

If a telekinesed creature is hurled against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points).

so I'd rule the same 1D6 of damage for running into an invisible wall/illusionary scene

note that figments cannot "hide" items, only make new one appears.
Glamers can alter/hide items.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

1d6 damage / 10 ft. of running into the wall. =D


Vrischika111 wrote:

from the telekinesis spell (to compare to existing PF rules)

If a telekinesed creature is hurled against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points).

so I'd rule the same 1D6 of damage for running into an invisible wall/illusionary scene

note that figments cannot "hide" items, only make new one appears.
Glamers can alter/hide items.

The illusionist crated a very thin piece of paper, the size of a wall, that looks remarkably like a picture of a hallway that exists in this very castle.

There, you didn't hide anything. You created a painting. A damn good one.

Dust Raven wrote:
But if we wanted to keep it "real" within the genre, action heroes walk through walls, not into them.

Sounds like a sunder attack against the wall. oh ho!


To me the choice is either to use the falling object rules or treat the impact as a slam attack and to me a speed adjusted slam attack seems a better fit.

If somebody falls into a pit they have a split second to brace themselves for the impact as the damage is caused by falling and the body reflexively braces itself. If someone walks/jogs/runs into a wall then they don't have the opportunity to brace themselves and as several previous posters have pointed out does cause damage. Similarly a martial artist attempting to breaking bricks etc usually either succeeds or damages themselves.

I would rule If a person is moving stealthily or otherwise below half speed, they are able to feel the wall and stop. Otherwise that every 30 feet of movement causes 1d4 points of damage to a medium creature (using the slam damage natural attack table, so small would be 1d3 and large 1d6). I would also use the falling rules adjudicating that every 30 feet of movement is equivalent to 10 feet fallen. The damage applied to the individual should also be applied to the wall if relevant.

So in the original poster's example I would rule that a human moving along at a run (120 feet) into a wall they did not see would suffer 4d4 damage and fall prone.

I would also use the same technique if someone was bull rushed into a wall, i.e. the bull rushed opponent would take slam damage from the wall, but unlikely to be more than 1d4 (for a medium creature) as it would require beating the opponents's CMD score by +30 to move them more than 30 feet.


GM Jeff wrote:
cmastah wrote:
Does major illusion allow you to even make it look like a road continues on when there's a wall?

I don't see why not.

'Image' spells are 'figments'. See the Illusion bit of the Magic chapter (Core p210): "Figments cannot make something seem to be something else."

They're supposed to go in empty air, not where something else is.
Otherwise you could use Silent Image to give your entire group greater invisibility for as long as you want.
To make something disappear, you need a 'glamer'.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
KHShadowrunner wrote:
Vrischika111 wrote:

...

note that figments cannot "hide" items, only make new one appears.
Glamers can alter/hide items.

The illusionist crated a very thin piece of paper, the size of a wall, that looks remarkably like a picture of a hallway that exists in this very castle.

There, you didn't hide anything. You created a painting. A damn good one.
...

so I'd give a straight ST disbelieve: it's not a 3D illusion anymore but a 2D illusion, on an additional layer on the wall.

that's why illusonary terrain is this high level, as it hides the existing and replaces with something else.

Sovereign Court

This is an easy one. As a GM you can assign some damage just to make the event more vivid. Describe the crash of armor, or the writhing pain in the characters head or shoulder, then have the player roll 2d6, or 1d6. This is the incidental type of stuff a GM does to give teeth to situations. The net effect is usually harmless and easily cured by a cure light wounds, but assigning incidental damage like this gives more believability to the situation of slamming into a stone wall.

Just my 2 cp.
-Pax

Edit: For added flavor - ask the character to make a strength check, and assign +1 to +4 to the damage based on whether that check results in a low medium high or very high score. Again, its mostly flavor and shouldn't actually kill that character unless they are 1st level, even then you're dealing with them knocking themselves unconscious - which is always hilarious but recoverable.

Second Edit: If the player was just walking - probably no damage. The description above assumes a full charge.


Mapleswitch wrote:
Illusions do not automatically reveal themselves. Once you interact with an illusion, you are allowed to save. If you fail the save, your mind tricks you into believing what you see is real and true. Many players try to power game through illusions - DMs need to stand firm and declare 'you think there is no wall, would you really do that?'

No gaming necessary after running into the wall hidden behind the illusion of an open doorway. While passing through the illusion a few cm before the wall, one would roll a save, but this has no effect with the interaction with the wall behind.

if afterwards the char gets up and useses his hands to find the invisible object he ran into, he will feel the wall behind the illusion perfectly.


Dust Raven wrote:
But if we wanted to keep it "real" within the genre, action heroes walk through walls, not into them.

Now I want to make a Mythic Kool Aid™ Man with an "Oh, Yeah!" power to ignore the hardness of and auto-crit walls.

-TimD


Vrischika111 wrote:
KHShadowrunner wrote:
Vrischika111 wrote:

...

note that figments cannot "hide" items, only make new one appears.
Glamers can alter/hide items.

The illusionist crated a very thin piece of paper, the size of a wall, that looks remarkably like a picture of a hallway that exists in this very castle.

There, you didn't hide anything. You created a painting. A damn good one.
...

so I'd give a straight ST disbelieve: it's not a 3D illusion anymore but a 2D illusion, on an additional layer on the wall.

that's why illusonary terrain is this high level, as it hides the existing and replaces with something else.

ST?

You mean you haven't seen the chalk-drawings on the floor that give the illusion that there is actually a man-hole in the road when there isn't?

Sure, I'd make them circumstantially explain what direction someone is coming from, and how observant they are. But if they play it right (IE, the person being fooled is running directly in one direction at said wall, no turns) and the created image is DESIGNED to fool something running in that direction, I fail to see how you'd be running from a hobgoblin, start racing down the hall and suddenly stop and go "nope, that clearly looks like a piece of paper somehow strapped to the wall". It's even built into the check (Will save if interacted with)

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