Also, doesn't vow of poverty allow you to have one high-priced item? Just check with the GM and add all the various item properties you want onto the single item. I seem to recall that is the way the developers intended it to work... which strikes a lot of people as odd, but that was the suggestion as I remember it.
yes it does - and with wise choices, this could be and item that keeps you doing amazing things.
The thing people forget about the monk is that it's not supposed to "out dps" a fighter. In fact, my monks are never built to do that. The way I build my monks are all about battle field control and play to the strengths, not the weakness, of the class.
Because it seemed like a cool idea at the time and I did play for 7 levels and 6 months, the character concept was that the monk was sending all the money he earned back to his family. We have now got to the point that my monk makes an acrobatic check on the first turn to jump up somewhere high so he can have a good view of the fight and shout encouragement down. The gm even keeps sending the pc gifts from his family (equipment) in a not so subtle hint that a pc who can't hit his opponents on anything lower than a 15 (on his first attack of a flurry) isn't contributing much.With danger of sounding judgmental, if you don't want to play the Vow of Poverty, why did you take it?Because it gives him a massive ki pool
Talk to your DM about it instead of bringing it up on the boards, rarely if ever will you have the majority of people on here say "yes its ok to bend the rules this way" and thats really whats being asked isnt it? Even ifyou everyone on the board says its cool, that doesnt mean the dm will allow it.
If he agrees great, if not you still have a few options.
1. Your monk can see that he is causing more harm than good and retire, go back to the temple and (with his character level) become a leader. {Abandon the monk to the realm of npcs and if the group needs some advice while in the area they have a trusted friend to go talk to. Roll up a new character}
2. The monk can see that his vow is making things harder for everyone, he can take a sebatical (either played out in game or not) journey alone for a while to speak with his god (or sect leader or whatever) and drop the vow or find a way to improve on it {if done out of game try out a new character and keep the monk on the side, if you find you really enjoyed the monk more bring him back. Maybe this is the point in game where you can switch rulings from pf to BoED, maybe he comes back without the vow and retrained feats/skills/etc. Maybe the dm just decides that his god hears his call and "blesses" him with better numbers in the right places}
3. He can just decide to drop the vow, take the feat tax of a wasted early level feat and start gaining his share of the loot and carrying more than just one item. {No explination needed here}
What ever happened to the spirit of the game
Just asking
You know what happened to Old Yeller, right?
I firmly agree with Roberta in this. If someone tried pulling this kind of semantic chicanery at my table they'd be shown the door.
Old yeller ?
Sorry not ringing any bells is it a Sep thing ?
There are so many forgone conclusions with little to no proof or merit, Inflated/exaggerated opinions, and BADWRONGFUN arguements on this post so far....
Excited to see how far this convo goes.
It seems like the real problem is: Vow of Poverty's restrictions are preventing you from playing an effective character.
I don't see why you couldn't just drop the vow, lose the points from your ki pool, and move on. I wouldn't allow a player in my campaign to claim Vow of Poverty and then still take on items worth more than 50g.
If you want to keep the roleplay of sending your money away, you could drop the vow as it is, taking up the mindset that you're no good to your family dead and need the equipment to continue amassing money. Actually... can't a family live on just a few gold a month? At your level, you should be able to support all of your relatives and still have enough left over to get yourself decent equipment.
Ask the GM, their opinion is the only one that matters.
It seems like the real problem is: Vow of Poverty's restrictions are preventing you from playing an effective character.
I don't see why you couldn't just drop the vow, lose the points from your ki pool, and move on. I wouldn't allow a player in my campaign to claim Vow of Poverty and then still take on items worth more than 50g.
If you want to keep the roleplay of sending your money away, you could drop the vow as it is, taking up the mindset that you're no good to your family dead and need the equipment to continue amassing money. Actually... can't a family live on just a few gold a month? At your level, you should be able to support all of your relatives and still have enough left over to get yourself decent equipment.
Well given my character must of sent them over 16,000 gold they are not doing too badly off.
By battlefield control I assume you mean combat manuevers? Those are going to be hurt by lack of items too.Also, doesn't vow of poverty allow you to have one high-priced item? Just check with the GM and add all the various item properties you want onto the single item. I seem to recall that is the way the developers intended it to work... which strikes a lot of people as odd, but that was the suggestion as I remember it.yes it does - and with wise choices, this could be and item that keeps you doing amazing things.
The thing people forget about the monk is that it's not supposed to "out dps" a fighter. In fact, my monks are never built to do that. The way I build my monks are all about battle field control and play to the strengths, not the weakness, of the class.
Not nearly as much with tetori or maneuver master - you can caster hate and create general disruption quite easily without much of anything. Are there fights you'll have to think outside of the box on? Yes, but all classes have that. All of them.
It simply my opinion that people expect the monk to be something it's not, I for one am very satisfied with how it is. I know that puts me in the unpopular minority - but I am there already. I don't min/max all my characters, I build around a concept or story and make my build decisions on what will be more fun and help me RP my character concept the best. I have never felt like I couldn't contribute to a combat as a monk, ever. Sometimes it has taken creative thinking to get there but that is half fun for me. Easy is boring. :)
OP, what is the problem here? Just drop the vow and pick another archtype.
I wouldnt show you the door for this munchkin move, as i find it common enough, but a good verbal slap of NO is in order. And like i tell my kid, once i have made a decision it is final, no more asking without consequences (grounding).
It should be plainly obvious to you. Just pick up something else and move on, end of discussion.
Hello, it seems you didn't quite read into the article enough! I play a lot of fighting games, and even play in tournaments fairly successfully. I Think it is important to note that "Playing To Win", doesn't really apply to pathfinder. Just looking at the casters shows how silly they get as they level up. It seems fairly obvious to me that the design here is not about balance, it is trying to maximize fun, since Pathfinder and most tabletop games are not competitive in any sense of the word.However, your comment on fighting games is pretty off base. The purpose of the fighting game is to beat your opponent, and if you play the best defensively, then that is what you should do if you want to win. I would like to say though, that historically the best characters in any fighting game has been the characters with the best offence, and characters with very strong defence are often lower tier
I've read it quite enough. Every two bit troll tries to post it to justify him using the latest game breaking glitch or weapon in every game ever.
I can read something without believing in it. "Playing to Win" is all well and good, but if "Playing to Win" consists of using the same 3-4 strategies and 5-6 counter-strategies it gets old damn quick. It's the problem I have with pretty much every high-level competitive game scene from Pokemon to Street Fighter to Team Fortress 2.
Those characters are generally the FASTEST, which is what gives them the best offense. The emphasis being on the poking and knowing that your character has priority over just about every single one of their character's moves, while guarding to make sure they do minimal damage to you. It's fun for a game or two but it gets old fast, in both directions.
That's a really bizarre attitude. No, every class that isn't a Monk or Rogue has a place. Monks suck because they do not work as advertised. Rogues suck because they are completely obsoleted by other class archetypes. Every other class has something to contribute and are perfectly viable.
Monks "suck" because you expect them to be Jet Li in his latest Wuxia film mowing down armies of mooks while jumping 30 feet in the air with no effort?
No wonder you hate them. They work just fine as long as you work a little bit at building them and not expect them to be the best at everything. My Monk is not best at DPR, he is second best. He is not best at Acrobatics, he is second best. He IS best at saves, and he IS best at taking on multiple targets and his AC is the second highest (with a bit of a defensive edge from Snake Style). He is NOT the best at tanking hits.
Second best might not sound like much, but when you're better than 6/7 members of the party at everything, and worse than 1/7 members at one thing it adds up.
Monks "suck" because you expect them to be Jet Li in his latest Wuxia film mowing down armies of mooks while jumping 30 feet in the air with no effort?
Again, this is an absurd argument. I never said what I expected them to be. In fact, I said they do not function as advertised. Unless they are advertised as Jet Li in his latest Wuxia film, I have no idea where you're getting that from. And if they are advertised like that (which they aren't), they should be able to fulfill it.
I do not need to argue this point with you and especially not here. Loook around the boards. There are dozens of threads that prove it. Monks can have really good defense or pretty good offense, but can't get both without ridiculous rolled stats or absurdly high point buy. They are not especially good "skill" characters as they get far too few skill points and no room for Intelligence. Just look around the boards. Monks need help, and the fact that your monk might be second best in some random party doesn't change that. You might be very good at building characters while the rest of your party is lousy at it, for example.
From where I'm sitting, though, I see no reason to ever play a monk unless:
1) I'm making a Sensei support build (which I've done before and would do again)
2) I'm going to be a Zen Archer
3) I'm just dipping into monk for a few levels
4) I have four 18s for attributes, or some other absurd numbers.
If you were allowed the 1 combi item i would sugest something like this.
05000 Amulet of Mighty Fists (Guided if wisdom Agile if finesse or Heartseeker? if strength)
06000 +2 Wisdom or Dex or Str
03000 +1 Natural Armor
01500 +1 Resistance
00500 Intellegent
00000 Int 10
00000 Wis 10
00000 Cha 10
00000 Lawful Neutral
00000 Empathy
00000 Senses 30ft
01200 Mage Armor CL8 3/day (24hrs duration)
06000 Greater Magic Fang CL8 1/day (+2 enhancement bonus on unarmed strike for 8 hours)
23200 Total
Something like this would give him some fairly good boosts while still only having 1 item with his level 7 wealth by level. I wouldn't say such an item is in the spirit of the vow but as long as your group is happy and it lets you enjoy the game more then its all good.
What ever happened to the spirit of the game
Just asking
The spirit of Vow of Poverty faded away when Paizo did a sad job of rewriting it. It reads more like a kludgy list of technicalities than a serious roleplaying of an ascetic. And, as Tameknight noticed, they did not give it a good way for the restrictions to scale up as the monk leveled up. 50 gold is a lot to a first-level character, but it is pocket change to a seventh-level character.
Vow of Poverty: The monk taking a vow of poverty must never own more than six possessions—a simple set of clothing, a pair of sandals or shoes, a bowl, a sack, a blanket, and any one other item. Five of these items must be of plain and simple make, though one can be of some value (often an heirloom of great personal significance to the monk). The monk can never keep more money or wealth on his person than he needs to feed, bathe, and shelter himself for 1 week in modest accommodations. He cannot borrow or carry wealth or items worth more than 50 gp that belong to others. He is allowed to accept and use curative potions (or similar magical items where the item is consumed and is valueless thereafter) from other creatures. A monk with this vow increases his ki pool by 1 ki point for every monk level he possesses.
If the monk is trying to fund an orphanage and earns 2000gp from his labors, he cannot carry that money to the orphanage himself. A male human monk would be bearded because a razor is not on his list of allowed items, unless it has personal significance to him. If the party has to purchase ship berths for a two-week sea voyage, the monk has to arrange to work to pay off the second half of the voyage because he is not allowed to pay cash for it. If the profane ritual to summon the dark god can be stopped by pulling out the 500gp gemstone eye of the idol and throwing it into the volcano, then monk has to sacrifice his ki points until he pays for an Atonement spell as a consequence of his heroism. And how is he going to pay for the Atonement spell when before the Atonement he has to recommit himself to the Vow of Poverty?
Yet this Vow of Poverty still allows him to own a +4 Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists that costs more than most mansions, furniture and all, so long as he says that that amulet has great personal significance.
How does a Vow of Poverty monk even get a share of the party loot? (Other than the very few gp required to live, of course.)Because he is allowed to own money just not carry it, so as long as the party hold the loot for him he is sorted.
Tameknight, why find the lame technicalities that are easily countered? Use the loopholes that are written into the Vow of Poverty. Then spice them up with good roleplaying.
First, the monk is allowed to receive gifts that do not become property, such as giving him a potion of Bull's Strength to drink rather than to carry. Likewise, a gift of a Bull's Strength spell would be just as acceptable. Monks perform well when heavily buffed. So if the wizard and cleric buff the monk with their spells and the fighter contributes potions, the monk can perform at full level.
Why would the rest of the party stretch themselves in order to aid the monk? It builds off of the classic advice that the best magic item for a low-level monk is a 1000gp Pearl of Power. The monk does not use it himself; instead, he gives it as a gift to the wizard who casts Mage Armor on him every day.
Make an out-of-character deal with the other players. When the monk denies himself a share of treasure because of his Vow of Poverty, and the other characters gain extra wealth, ask them to spend half of that the wealth on magic items that let them freely buff the monk, such as Pearl of Power, Wand of Cure Light Wounds, Potion of Bull's Strength. In character, the rest of the party buys that stuff because they want to help the beloved, selfless monk. You never have direct control of those gifts, which means that the other characters might use those items for themselves too. Let them: such generosity gives your monk a role in the party as a source of useful wealth.
Second, ask the players to save up the other half of that extra wealth. One day, after a trip to the local magic emporium, they surprise the monk with a gift of your choosing (you the player, not you the monk), such as an Amulet of Mighty Fists or a Belt of Physical Perfection. The monk will cherish the gift greatly as a symbol of friendship.
Because it seemed like a cool idea at the time and I did play for 7 levels and 6 months, the character concept was that the monk was sending all the money he earned back to his family. We have now got to the point that my monk makes an acrobatic check on the first turn to jump up somewhere high so he can have a good view of the fight and shout encouragement down. The gm even keeps sending the pc gifts from his family (equipment) in a not so subtle hint that a pc who can't hit his opponents on anything lower than a 15 (on his first attack of a flurry) isn't contributing much.With danger of sounding judgmental, if you don't want to play the Vow of Poverty, why did you take it?Because it gives him a massive ki pool
Ask your DM if he'd consider making some of those "gifts" in the form of some permanent spell effects (maybe not from your family though). Maybe as a reward for a valuable service you've done a powerful Wizard/Cleric (or hell, maybe your god) decided that you deserve nice things after all so you can continue your good work.