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Dunno about you, but you write your number on my report sheet before I hand out faction Missions.
Is it possible to require the player playing a Pregen to write their character number on the sheet(s) BEFORE the adventure?In theory this will end some of the reckless pregen behavior. If it's a brand new player, well that problem is harder to get rid of. If it's someone who wants to play "risk free" on their "main" this would prevent that behavior since the pregen dying would cause their character to die instead of just an unused PFS number.
I do that as a GM also, but only a couple of GMs I have played with pass out the report sheet first, maybe just making this a more common practice might alleviate some of the reckless pregen behavior since players ARE risking their characters lives by doing so.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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wouldn't you get bored of running first steps and that same 1-2 module? I've run first steps like 3 times and I'm sick of it already lolIf you want to start a character at level 3, GM 6 scenarios or two modules. :-)GM First Steps 1, 2, 3 and any level 1-2 Module -- start every character at level 3!
I was unaware of the ruling that allowed you to apply credit for 1-2 modules more than once, and ran 6 or so tables of WE BE GOBLINS before I figured it out. Heck, a majority of GMs have run a specific game or two a half-dozen times for no credit -- so credit isn't really the driving force.
Does it get boring? If it was the same group every time, yessir. Luckily, players are a diverse bunch, and the scenarios are open ended enough to result in varying results from identical inputs.
Really though, I was just making a joke. If you GM that much, you don't have enough time to play characters that frequently. And when you get to play, you'll want to play your favorite one or two a bunch. Can't get too much playing meat out of level 3s.
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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I do that as a GM also, but only a couple of GMs I have played with pass out the report sheet first, maybe just making this a more common practice might alleviate some of the reckless pregen behavior since players ARE risking their characters lives by doing so.Dunno about you, but you write your number on my report sheet before I hand out faction Missions.
Is it possible to require the player playing a Pregen to write their character number on the sheet(s) BEFORE the adventure?In theory this will end some of the reckless pregen behavior. If it's a brand new player, well that problem is harder to get rid of. If it's someone who wants to play "risk free" on their "main" this would prevent that behavior since the pregen dying would cause their character to die instead of just an unused PFS number.
If you take this approach, expect to end up with an awful lot of extra PFS character numbers.
"Oh, 12345-56 died? Time to create 12345-57! I'll call her Prejennifer Standin!"
But I don't know that pregens being reckless is a real problem. I have seen a lot of reckless players playing recklessly with level 2-5 PCs, regardless of the risk. For some people, risk means nothing. Thus, the real problem is players being reckless and *not caring* about the risk involved. It's not a pregen issue.
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If you take this approach, expect to end up with an awful lot of extra PFS character numbers."Oh, 12345-56 died? Time to create 12345-57! I'll call her Prejennifer Standin!"
But I don't know that pregens being reckless is a real problem. I have seen a lot of reckless players playing recklessly with level 2-5 PCs, regardless of the risk. For some people, risk means nothing. Thus, the real problem is players being reckless and *not caring* about the risk involved. It's not a pregen issue.
huh? that's the approach I'm suggest disallowing, as currently the rules for pregens are written in a way that you just play a pregen and if it dies write in PFS 12345-67, but if it lived you could give the chronicle/reporting to character PFS 12345-1 on the reporting sheet.
Passing out the sheet at the beginning makes the player make that choice without knowing the outcome, therefor risking a real character's life if they want a real character to get credit.
This is more in response to PFCBG's comments about overly rash players playing pregens because they don't care if they die, just an idea to make them care if they die. If it's simply a case of new players, then this approach won't help :p.
@Walter, I don't think We Be Goblins ever gets boring... first steps part 1, same deal, first steps 2-3 they get kinda boring :-p
I have characters with first steps credit that I doubt I'll ever play, so I totally get where you're coming from :D
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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If you take this approach, expect to end up with an awful lot of extra PFS character numbers."Oh, 12345-56 died? Time to create 12345-57! I'll call her Prejennifer Standin!"
But I don't know that pregens being reckless is a real problem. I have seen a lot of reckless players playing recklessly with level 2-5 PCs, regardless of the risk. For some people, risk means nothing. Thus, the real problem is players being reckless and *not caring* about the risk involved. It's not a pregen issue.
huh? that's the approach I'm suggest disallowing, as currently the rules for pregens are written in a way that you just play a pregen and if it dies write in PFS 12345-67, but if it lived you could give the chronicle/reporting to character PFS 12345-1 on the reporting sheet.
Passing out the sheet at the beginning makes the player make that choice without knowing the outcome, therefor risking a real character's life if they want a real character to get credit.
This is more in response to PFCBG's comments about overly rash players playing pregens because they don't care if they die, just an idea to make them care if they die. If it's simply a case of new players, then this approach won't help :p.
@Walter, I don't think We Be Goblins ever gets boring... first steps part 1, same deal, first steps 2-3 they get kinda boring :-p
I have characters with first steps credit that I doubt I'll ever play, so I totally get where you're coming from :D
All I'm saying is that even with your approach, it is still possible to engage in the type of deception that you are trying to prevent.
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not really, if they start out writing down "i'm playing this pregen for 12345-1" and they live it's applied to that guy, if they die and later try to play 12345-1 they are cheating. If they don't write down a number ahead of time it's always getting applied to a random dudder, because nobody would kill a character they have time invested in given the choice.
If they don't apply that or simply ignore that the character is dead and continue playing them, they are cheating but that is a different problem.
It's always possible to cheat, I'm just attempting to make the situation a cut and dry "doing this is now cheating" instead of a gray area. It will prevent many people from doing it. There are many more people who would "game the rules" than flat out cheat.
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wouldn't you get bored of running first steps and that same 1-2 module? I've run first steps like 3 times and I'm sick of it already lolIf you want to start a character at level 3, GM 6 scenarios or two modules. :-)GM First Steps 1, 2, 3 and any level 1-2 Module -- start every character at level 3!
Pretty sure you can only get credit at level 2 for a level 1 module once; maybe twice if you get it once for GMing and once for playing. This means you can start at level 2 forever with First Steps 1-3 or a level 1 module that credits 3 xp (e.g. Crypt of the Everflame), but not level 3.
Tier 1–2 sanctioned modules are available for unlimited replay with a 1st-level character for credit. The sanctioned modules can also be played with a 2nd-
level character once for credit. You may continue to replay the sanctioned modules with 1st-level characters after playing through them with a 2nd-level character. GMs can receive another Chronicle sheet each time they run one of the Tier 1 scenarios or Tier 1–2 sanctioned modules.
I guess that is a little ambiguous (unless this has been addressed by Mike/Mark) as to whether a GM can get credit on a level 2 multiple times...
(See this thread where someone asked the question (and it was not answered).)|
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Well, I think that they allow credit for these ones to be earned over and over again because, due to the level 1 requirement, the potential for grinding is lessened. They also want to encourage people to offer First Steps, but it is a bit hard to ask GMs to keep running it over and over if they're not getting any credit for it.
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it is a bit hard to ask GMs to keep running it over and over if they're not getting any credit for it.
Not really. There are a bunch of GMs who have run certain scenarios a million times. Hyperbole aside, I think DougDoug has run Mists of Mwangi over 20 times. I've run something like 6 scenarios 10 times each (too lazy to go look).
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Of the 59 scenarios I've run I've only received credit for 70% of them.
That's largely because I'm new to this campaign. I expect that percentage to decrease as I continue to GM.
The credit is important but its more important to me that my store's gamedays serve as many people as possible.
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As a Casual Gamer who has only played on 5 senarios (and two of these at a con)since, I think, August, I would be saddened if I went to a bimonth game and found I was baned from playing because I hadn't played in enough senarios with a single character (I know this would never happen in my region. Props to our VC who has been more than great). I see the word optimized thrown around a lot, and I think it's great if players wish to have characters like that, but I don't think it should be expected when you sit at a table to play, each character should be as fun and unique as the person playing it, when you start excluding based on build of the character and the experience of the player you have entered into the realm of elitism, and that's fine if that's what you like... if you don't want to play with a fresh off the street player who happend to show up on a day a teir 5-7 is being run that's your option. by turning away the newly interested you can only hurt the community, if an "elite" player dosen't want to run with the "newbs" they can choose a different route, the PFS is not here to cater to the "old guard" (unless I'm very mistaken by the reason PFS was started) it's ultimate goal is to get people playing, and in turn sell more product. At the end of the day win or lose, live or die, the experiences we take away from the table are just as much built on the interactions we have with our fellow players as it is on the story we're told, any new player, playing at any teir will be back if they have a good time, share a few jokes, and meet some liked minded people to share an afternoon with. "elite" players should be more vocused on growing and supporting the community than in protecting their "snowflakes" from the curse of the deadly "newb"
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Any gameday organizer worth their salt has a low-level table available for the new players. If there's only one higher-level table running then I suggest the event should be changed to a private table so no one mistakes it for an invitation to come out and play. A gameday implies that the event is open to the public and is promoting the campaign.
And yes I've run both Mists of Mwangi and The Midnight Mauler over 20 times each. I hope I get to do them 20 more times. I prefer to run those scenarios because they are well-written and fun for players. I can't say the same if I had to run First Steps 20 times.
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I try to have twice as many tier 1-5 tables as any other table.
At our normal game day we have 5 tables. At least two 1-5 tables are always run. A 3-7 or two, and at least one 5-9 or 7-11. I try to cover it all. If anything gets axed, it's typically the 7-11 table.
When we were smaller. 2 tables a day, we still always had a 1-5, and the other table would cycle between all 4 tiers.
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Any gameday organizer worth their salt has a low-level table available for the new players. If there's only one higher-level table running then I suggest the event should be changed to a private table so no one mistakes it for an invitation to come out and play. A gameday implies that the event is open to the public and is promoting the campaign.
pfft. What do you know?
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I don't see how this helps anything for anyone involved.What if we limited 7th level pregens to subtler 7-8 and maybe only 5-6 of the 5-9's?Another option: Pregens level must be equal to or lower than all other PCs in the party or the lowest possible for that tier.
Maybe this is already addressed in the rules and I missed it but I had a table at Gencon one year wanting to play up by grabbing higher level Pregens to the dismay of the one real characters there. I talked them out of it.
While you certainly could have put this a bit more diplomatically, I also didn't explain myself clearly. I was referring to a similar issue to what Kyle was talking about. Being that I have run into a scenario where Pregens are chosen intentionally to up the average party level in order for the group to play up. This sucks for groups that have several Pregens for all the same reasons previously referenced- they are somewhat underpowered and the players don't know the characters well enough to be effective. Sort of the reverse situation of having the level 7 Pregens playing at a high tier. At least in that scenario it is the pregen that will be the one who is most likely to die.
Perhaps I am the only one who has experience this. I saw it quite a bit when mustering at Gencon. Most walk-ins will naturally choose to go for the highest level character they are allowed to take, but are usually better off playing low tier.
Admittedly a bit off topic but a symptom of the same problem in my eyes.
I agree with everyone who says this is largely an issue that is preventable by good planning.
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Most walk-ins will naturally choose to go for the highest level character they are allowed to take, but are usually better off playing low tier.Weird, I would have assumed it was the other way round.
Generally, if they aren't new to PFRPG or RPGs in generally, they want to play as high of a level as they can. If they're new or relatively new, they usually choose 1st level. Again, IME, YMMV, all that stuff.
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Of the 59 scenarios I've run I've only received credit for 70% of them.
That's largely because I'm new to this campaign. I expect that percentage to decrease as I continue to GM.
The credit is important but its more important to me that my store's gamedays serve as many people as possible.
I agree witj this sentiment. Gms receive unlimited credit for first steps, same as players.
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Some places don't have more than one table, and even that can be crammed in with the taller people hitting their heads on merchandise.
This is a different conversation, but many game stores don't make good game hosting locations. Locally, we have discovered restaurants and bars are happy to accommodate games so long as the players order drinks or food. It might not be intuitive to try this, but it works. The Western Michigan VC runs a 4-table slot at a grocery store. You just have to look around your community for the possibilities.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Two of the players wanted to take their 7-9 builds out for a spinPersonally, I don't think that organized play is the right forum for experimenting with high-level characters, pregen or otherwise. I suppose, in a local venue, with known players, and if everyone knows that is what is going on, it's okay, but I would not want to see that in general play, especially at a convention.
Apparently I wasn't clear.
These were their characters, advanced through play, to levels 7-9. We don't have many people available at the same time with higher level characters, and they were hoping to play them.
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The faction war is silly as well. I enjoy D&D 4e as well and a few of the orgnaizers took an effort to make me feel unwelcome. I had a player throw a die at me and then the clique passed it off as a joke. One as a GM straight out cheated to try to kill my character. Having played D&D for over 2 decades I was able to question some of his ruling since they were onyl effecting me, but still. Jerk are jerks, and some nerds are elitest as jock were in high school.
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There's a lot of discussion about 7th level pregens, so I'll let all of you in on my standard operating procedure for such things, in case it means anything:
-First, I would tell the player playing the pregen that there are risks involved, and that player(like everyone else) has to put down a PFS number prior to beginning play. If they put down a random number(e.g. XXXXX-91), they are throwing away an opportunity to play the scenario for credit, which is fine by me. In case the player doesn't know this, I inform them of this. Side note: If they're replaying for no credit whatsoever, just to help fill the table(which is cool), all of this obviously doesn't apply.
-Next, (unless the aforementioned side note applies) I tell the player I'm tracking the resources the pregen uses, and putting a net total of all items used in their items purchased column. This will make them think before consuming resources wastefully, as the character they apply it to will have to buy those items as if they had used them. E.g.: Player Z is playing Kyra, and expends a scroll of daylight, whether its just to light up a room or to make a vampire go *poof*, so I ask them if they're sure, and if yes, I put a note on the Kyra pregen's chronicle that they just bought themselves a 3rd level scroll, and expended it.
-Finally, if the pregenerated character dies, that player then has two choices: he can sell the remaining items on his pregen to purchase a raise dead(or try to convince the other players to chip in). If so, I note the appropriate expenditures on his chronicle and give it to that player. If not, I put the "dead" condition on his chronicle (double-checking I've filled in the PFS # section with the appropriate numbers) and report that character as dead. In addition, I do not allow them to use PP for any purpose, since pregens effectively have zero fame/prestige.
Do you think this is harsh? Well, I don't. If somebody wants to play a pregenerated character for credit, they have to be willing to pay the price. Just like ammunition, wand charges, and other consumables are used if the player plays their own character, this should also apply if the player is consuming resources from a pregenerated character as well, in my opinion. Now if they're playing a 1st-level pregen, I'd probably end up hand-waiving this, of course, because they're probably a new player, and anyone can do a full rebuild of a character before their first session as a level 2. I really, really, really do hate using the "I'm the GM" card like this, but there has to be a mechanism somewhere to prevent abuse, and unless someone of VC or higher rank comes to overturn it, I will use this rule whenever possible (even if makes people call me "the father" in German and start saluting me in an odd manner), and I think other GMs should do it as well.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I don't think it's unduly harsh, Josh, but I do think your second point -- making the actual player character buy gear if the pre-gen uses it -- goes against my understanding of the rules.
If the pre-gen credit is being applied to a first level character, dropping the gold reward to 500 gp and then subtracting all the equipment the character used will effectively bankrupt the beginning character if it uses, say, a single 3rd-level potion. (Indeed, that will start the character with (150 + 500 - 750 =) -100 gold. The character will need to adventure for at least another scenario with no equipment. No weapons. No spelbook. Not even a holy symbol.
That's not the "I'm the GM" card. That's the "I'm going to screw you over" card.
I don't understand how that's conducive to a fun session, or a welcoming environment.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Josh, while I don't think that your approach is incorrect from a rules perspective, you might consider trying to word what you are saying in a more friendly manner. Unless the player you are referring to is experienced, they are A) not going to have a clue what you are talking about and B) be confused at why you are being so harsh on them. They obviously would not have a frame of reference for the problems that you describe.
If it is an experienced player, then that changes matters.
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There's a lot of discussion about 7th level pregens, so I'll let all of you in on my standard operating procedure for such things, in case it means anything:
Things
Do you think this is harsh? Well, I don't. If somebody wants to play a pregenerated character for credit, they have to be willing to pay the price. Just like...
As Chris Mortika pointed out, you should go read the PFSOPG, since I think that it makes sure to say that you can't force the linked character to pay for a Pre-gen's consumable use the way you want to.
About #3, I think that pre-gens are not allowed to sell anything, even to pay for to recover a character. Also if you are linking a higher level pregen to your character, and that pregen dies I don't think that the character dies right away. They die only when the pre-gen chronicle hits them at the appropriate tier, giving them time to save up gold or PP for the raise they are going to need, so be careful about that.
So yes, I think that you are being too harsh. In principle this sort of thing is fine, but make sure that you are not breaking any of the PFS rules about pregens in the process. I would also question if pre-gen use is enough of a problem to warrant such draconian treatment of your players. I suspect that it is not.
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So to clear some misinformation from the last few posts....
You can't make a player pay for consumables used by a Pregen, those items are not part of a players wealth.
Second on Pregen death, there is no holding off death until a pc matches the level of the Pregen. Ther was talk about adding that when the new rules for pregens were initially proposed, but that was never added to the guide.
How to deal with Pregen death is clarified in the PFS FAQ, linking is a b+~+# on the iPad so I will just post what the FAQ states here
If my PC or pregenerated character dies permanently, what happens?
Player characters and pregenerated characters who do not return to the realm of the living receive 0 XP, 0 PP, 0 gold, and no items or boons. This is marked on their Chronicle sheet along with a note that the character is permanently dead. If a player was planning to hold the Chronicle from a pregenerated character and apply it to a lower level PC once the PC reached the level of the pregenerated character, they must either apply the Chronicle sheet immediately and report the PC as dead or assign the Chronicle sheet to a new level 1 PC (ie a new PC number) and report that character as dead.