Lead Designer
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hey there all,
I have been feeling for a while now that Amazing Initiative (pg 6) is perhaps too good in its current form, and can lead to some problems when it comes to tracking initiative. I wanted to float some alternative systems out there to the assembled playtesters to gather some feedback. Take a look through these suggestions and tell me what you think.
1. As the existing ability, but activating the power that grants you an extra turn requires you to expend 2 uses of your mythic power.
2. The bonus to your initiative changes to an amount equal to your mythic tier. In addition, you can spend one use of your mythic power to gain an extra standard action on your turn.
3. You can spend one use of your mythic power to gain a +20 bonus to your initiative check. At any one time during the combat, you can decide to take an additional standard action on your turn. After you do so, you initiative changes to what it would be without the +20 (you do not get an additional turn that round, your initiative just moves).
4. As option 3, but the bonus you gain to your initiative is +10 and your spot does not move after you spend your one free bonus standard action.
I've got a few other options floating around, but these are some of the most concrete. I am willing to entertain other options, but please keep them simple. If you need more than three sentences to explain the concept, its probably too complex.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I like 1 and 2 and think either option is solid. I think 2x mythic tier in bonus for option 2 might be more reasonable. I'm not sold on 3 as I think it is far too cumbersome. 4 seems to be much more reasonable than the current Amazing Initiative, but I'd like to see other opinions, or even have someone float a combat or 3 with that rule before judging.
Edit: Upon further reflection, I have a preference towards option 2 with my above-mentioned alteration.
I currently like 3 the most. It's an interesting resource management trick, and having to choose to either keep your awesome initiative or pull a clutch standard action is pretty exciting.
I like 1 and 2 also. 2 is also the only one that does away with the bookkeeping problem, and would probably get my vote. 1 would be acceptable also, though.
I'd go with 2.
Otherwise i would suggest this:
At 2nd tier, you gain a +8 mythic bonus on Initiative checks, you can also expend one use of mythic power to treat your initiative roll as if you had rolled a 20. In addition, you can spend one use of mythic power each round to take an additional standard action during your turn. Using this ability is a free action that must be decided at the start of your turn.
In order: 3, 2, 4, 1, existing
I think going from full round-> standard might shift the advantage a little towards spellcasters.
|
I'm kind of sad that we will lose the extra rounds for the monsters (from a DM point of view)
But the ability is too powerful for the players, I do agree about that... so
1) Good try, it can work well if you send a lot of challenge in a single day to your players, but most of the time... you will not spend half of your mythic point in a single day, so i would say (sadly for the Big Bad Boss who would benefit a lot from such a boost) No.
2) It's interesting, but with so many powers that let you make an extra attack as a swift action, it seems kind of redundant. You can get an extra standard action or make a standard action as a swift action, both powers needing one mythic point... So for the weapon-dudes, the ability doesn't seem that good, for the spellcasters, it's great since you can cast 2 spell in a single turn.
3) Probably my favorite but is kind of hard to track... and once again, the spellcaster might have a bit of an edge over others
4) well it's my favorite without the hard part to track!
So in order of preference, i guess it would be: 4,2,3,1
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm starting to think the standard action is unfairly favorable towards casters, so 1 is probably the best choice. Metis's suggestion s interesting too, and worth thinking more about.
|
Is the extra action feature a necessity? Initiative alone will factor hugely in combat and vs other Mythic characters it all comes out in the wash.
Running with Metis's suggestion (in terms of working within the initiative mechanic):
You can spend one use of your mythic power to gain a +20 bonus to your initiative check. In addition, once per round (excluding the surprise round) you can expend one use of Mythic power as a free action to gain +20 on your initiative count. This bonus comes into effect after your current turn ends.
This very slightly decreases the advantage of winning initiative in a mythic vs mythic combat, and could add some tactical fun involving delaying.
Option 4 seems to be the simplest -- it does not require keeping track of your initiative number after combat begins.
One problem with any approach that changes your initiative number is that it is not automatically clear where a mythic character's initiative would fall if it moves to the same number as that of another combatant. A combatant who deliberately delays his turn could further confuse matters.
|
|
I like the 3: you get a boon that you can expand for an advantage.
after that the 2 seems better then plain +20, which is indeed a lot for a T2 (it means that no one non-mythic will ever beat you).
you can even go for both : +20 to init, if you take the extra action, the bonus reduces to 2xTier (yes, Tier one will not loose anything, but hey, it's the max tier)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The standard action does seem to favour casters. 2 also looks incredibly unimpressive compared with other options. It just doesn't have the same punch.
For me, the ability to go twice in one round is one of the very coolest things about mythic. I'm yet to play it, but that, to me, looks like the stand-out thing. I've even used it to explain the idea to friends.
"This is the difference between mythic and normal heroes. Mythic characters can get away with this sort of nonsense."
Options 3 and 4 both look OK, but I'd much prefer an extra turn, even if that means the price goes up to 2 power.
I currently am looking at option 2 (even if it favors casters), but I'll know more after I game on monday.
|
|
Hmmm, after a quick session of gaming combat I tend to say that I'm not really sure about those possibilities too.
Having an extra standard action is quite great... and the problem is, why shouldn't you take it on your first round?
A combat at mid or high-level (I'd say that mid level is around lvl7) doesn't last that long...
My players just all went: "We take the extra standard action now!".
I think the right now is that the "extra round" or "extra action" is either once every combat, or uses the same ressources that you use for mythic spells and other mythic abilities. And if you have to chose between an extra standard action (for 1 point) or to cast a mythic spell (1-5 points...), is there really a choice? You might take the mythic spell for some reason, but those would be "utilitarian spells" or use them in a non-conventional way (which is perfectly cool with me), but in a combat...
Taking an extra standard action is really really better than most of the other abilities, and once per combat is a lot.
Maybe we should try to find another way.
Every Mythic character could maybe get a number of extra standard action it can takes per day equal to half his tier? And limit the number of extra standard action to one per round?
I prefer option 2.
In its current form, a party of mythic characters (tier 2+) would all be going first before any other (non-mythic) creatures which to me, seems a bit boring. I'd like to see a bonus but not a guaranteed 'going first' rule.
I also don't think amazing initiative should be given to all mythic characters, I think it would be better off being an ability one would need to select (doesn't seem right that a DEX 8 wizard who is old and slow suddenly able to act before the goblin ninjas without a bit of luck)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I see the advantage to spell casters, but this will make burn thru their spells per day more quickly. This one is going to be a hard one to blance out.
Do not forget Recuperation, for a single use of Mythic Power, a spellcaster car recharge all of its spells for the day...
Initiative should always be tracked so effects and actions occur and are concluded in the proper sequence. Modifiers trump as usual for equal initiative counts. Where would the problem lie with delaying?
It is just more to keep track of. If you move a character's place in the initiative order for any reason other than the player delaying his turn, you have the issue of the game bogging down slightly as you figure out his new location in the initiative order. If enough players have delayed or otherwise changed their places in the initiative order, it could be a real pain to determine (for example) just where in the order a combatant with initiative count 16 is supposed to go. In a standard game, you only need to keep track of the order of play -- the actual initiative count is irrelevant once that order is determined.
|
|
David knott 242, keeping track of the count is crucial. Can I delay my wizard's second turn so his buffs last 1 turn longer for other party members? Can my slowed fighter delay his turn until after the count where the effect wears off? Tracking initiative by count is necessary and is part of the Core mechanics (see readied and delayed actions).
My option was intended to represent Mythic characters seizing the initiative.
Extra actions will unbalance Mythic tier 2.
We always went with the 4E rule that delaying has the most unfavorable possible effect on durations that end on your turn (although it should be noted that Pathfinder has fewer of those than 4E does). So if an effect is desirable, it ends immediately when your turn comes and you say "I delay", but if the effect is undesirable, it continues until you actually take your turn.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
New option to tip it in the favor melee of types:
You gain +20 to your initiative. You may spend 1 use of your Mythic Power as a free action to treat a full-round action or a spell with a 1 round casting time as a standard action.
THIS. THIS. THIS.
Yeah, this is pretty awesome.THIS. THIS. THIS.New option to tip it in the favor melee of types:
You gain +20 to your initiative. You may spend 1 use of your Mythic Power as a free action to treat a full-round action or a spell with a 1 round casting time as a standard action.
If you stop to think on it for 10 straight second you will realize that this is nothing different than gaining an extra move action. I don't think is that awesome when champion already can move and full attack or move and attack with a single mithyc point.
Based on my experience playing other 3.5/PF characters with abilities that grant extra standard actions, when faced with a challenging fight, I will always spam any ability which grants extra standard actions as much as the rules allow, including any of the four listed in the OP.
That being said, given the number of swift and immediate actions showing up in the mythic rules, I think mythic characters really need something like this:
Swift Initiative (Ex): You gain a +10 bonus on initiative checks, and can take one additional swift action each turn. This additional swift action must be taken during your turn and cannot be used to cast a spell.
I'm liking this one. The +10 to initiative isn't too insane, but will still put mythic characters above non-mythic in the initiative count in most cases, and the additional swift action is very useful with the new abilities in this book.
From a DM standpoint, I'm gonna keep Amazing Initiative as is for monsters and enemy NPCs that might have it. (maybe with the +10 instead of +20). I like the idea of enemies being able to do more, especially solo fights. It's always irked me when a party (even when I'm a player) just mows through the BBEG in a round or two and they don't get to do much.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I vote that in the final release, monsters retain the original ability (possibly with a re-worked initiative bonus), while players gain something that doesn't allow them to meatgrinder everything in the first round of combat. All in favor?
I think the whole initiative thing is pretty heavy. This would mean that players go first in nearly every encounter. Perhaps some mythic supermonsters and villains can counter that, but else most other encounters could be ended before they beginn. For example with an controller caster, or some caster dishing out so much damage, it´s even good for rogues and the like.
I think 2 is good.
My vote is for Epic Meepo's Swift Initiative ability, though I like the idea of the initiative bonus growing with your Mythic Tier like some of the other suggestions.
|
If you stop to think on it for 10 straight second you will realize that this is nothing different than gaining an extra move action. I don't think is that awesome when champion already can move and full attack or move and attack with a single mithyc point.Yeah, this is pretty awesome.THIS. THIS. THIS.New option to tip it in the favor melee of types:
You gain +20 to your initiative. You may spend 1 use of your Mythic Power as a free action to treat a full-round action or a spell with a 1 round casting time as a standard action.
Actually, it allows you to:
Full attack
Charge
Deliver coup de grace
Escape from a net
Extinguish flames
Light a torch
Load a heavy or repeating crossbow
Lock or unlock weapon in locked gauntlet
Prepare to throw splash weapon
Run
Use skill that takes 1 round
Use a touch spell on up to six friends
Withdraw
as a Standard action.
Plus, it allows you the benefits of still having 1 move action, 1 swift action, and any other free actions.
But what equates to is full round+move action. It's really kind of lame.
I think +20 init at tier two is honestly a bit much. +10 or so should be plenty. As far as the extra turn goes, it should definitely cost more than one MP, but being so inherently overpowered, limit it to being used only once per day? Even then, bumping this up to a higher tier may be called for.
Based on my experience playing other 3.5/PF characters with abilities that grant extra standard actions, when faced with a challenging fight, I will always spam any ability which grants extra standard actions as much as the rules allow, including any of the four listed in the OP.
That being said, given the number of swift and immediate actions showing up in the mythic rules, I think mythic characters really need something like this:
Swift Initiative (Ex): You gain a +10 bonus on initiative checks, and can take one additional swift action each turn. This additional swift action must be taken during your turn and cannot be used to cast a spell.
This to me is the most palatable. Mainly because not only does it do away with the bookkeeping problem but it does make all the "swift action" mythic abilities much more interesting. Given how you have classes like paladins and cavaliers whod rather spend that swift action smiting ratehr than anything or other characters that want to do things like use bardic performance this right here is highly appealing to me.
But seriously, it's just another move action... The end result is no different.
The initiative worried me as well, but I had not tested it. I like 2 and 4.
With #2 I would probably adjust it be twice your tier (yes eventually +20) or better yet you get to add your mythic power die roll to it, because who doesn't like rolling dice!
Are you interested in having us playtest these ideas? Or just spitballing?
|
Hey there all,
I have been feeling for a while now that Amazing Initiative (pg 6) is perhaps too good in its current form, and can lead to some problems when it comes to tracking initiative. I wanted to float some alternative systems out there to the assembled playtesters to gather some feedback. Take a look through these suggestions and tell me what you think.
1. As the existing ability, but activating the power that grants you an extra turn requires you to expend 2 uses of your mythic power.
2. The bonus to your initiative changes to an amount equal to your mythic tier. In addition, you can spend one use of your mythic power to gain an extra standard action on your turn.
3. You can spend one use of your mythic power to gain a +20 bonus to your initiative check. At any one time during the combat, you can decide to take an additional standard action on your turn. After you do so, you initiative changes to what it would be without the +20 (you do not get an additional turn that round, your initiative just moves).
4. As option 3, but the bonus you gain to your initiative is +10 and your spot does not move after you spend your one free bonus standard action.
Jason,
In my opinion, I think that the initiative bonus shouldn't be a static figure that everyone gets. It would be different if some players got it and others didn't, but is there really much difference between players with a +4 and +8 initiative and players with a +24 and +28 Int?
For that reason, I'm not a fan of the current power nor options 1.
Option 2 seriously tones back the initiative bonus, and while it's still somewhat static, I think it being reduced helps. However, I don't know about purchasing standard actions with mythic power.
I like what the 3rd option does in terms of giving players a choice and adding another source to burn mythic power on. However, I worry that +20 to initiative is too good to be a real "Choice" and I think that managing a shifting imitative order will slow combat.
For those reason, I like option 4. I think +10 to your initiative is a great bonus, but not so much that it becomes a mandatory math fix, and I like the fact that players can take advantage of their free standard action without shifting in initiative.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
What about....
Amazing Initiative (Ex): You gain a bonus equal to twice your Mythic Tier on your initiative. In addition, a number times per day equal to your Mythic Tier, you may spend 1 point of Mythic Power to go again in the initiative order at half your rolled initiative.
My reason why I suggest the above is that being able to go twice is a very attractive ability for me both as a player and GM, but more so as a GM. Being able to get an extra attack routine out for Mythic Monsters is important to me, because it really lets those monsters feel terrifying and powerful, without having huge numbers. The +20 to initiative has always bugged me because you move from something like +6 to +26 at the drop of a hat. I like seeing the bonus grow organically as the player grows in power. It also limits how often the Mythic creature can take advantage of going twice, forcing him or her to really make a choice as whether or not those goblins are worth it.
I'd go for option 2.
Amazing Initiative is what makes me do not want to go beyond 1st mythic tier... it's too strong for just a second tier ability.
Full round action as a standard means you can do a a full round and a move in a single turn.
Now what if you had an extra move in a turn?
You could, like, combine a move and a standard to make a full round. And still have a move left. Sounds familiar?
Actually having an extra move is better since it allows the flexibility of taking two moves and a standard instad of a full round and a move when you want to.
that is What i was thinking:
Amazing Iniative (Ex): You gain a bonus equal to your Mythic Tier to Initiative rolls. In addition, you can spend two uses of your Mythic Power to gain an extra standard, move or swift action on your turn.
or maybe just a move and swift action...
|
|
What about....
Amazing Initiative (Ex): You gain a bonus equal to twice your Mythic Tier on your initiative. In addition, a number times per day equal to your Mythic Tier, you may spend 1 point of Mythic Power to go again in the initiative order at half your rolled initiative.
My reason why I suggest the above is that being able to go twice is a very attractive ability for me both as a player and GM, but more so as a GM. Being able to get an extra attack routine out for Mythic Monsters is important to me, because it really lets those monsters feel terrifying and powerful, without having huge numbers. The +20 to initiative has always bugged me because you move from something like +6 to +26 at the drop of a hat. I like seeing the bonus grow organically as the player grows in power. It also limits how often the Mythic creature can take advantage of going twice, forcing him or her to really make a choice as whether or not those goblins are worth it.
I like this one (even more than mine). Retains the original flavor and awesome while limiting the spam.
I'll likely keep cycle cycle through some of these options as I run my campaign with the mythic playtest. (Get to start on Monday, yay!)