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The state of PFS pregenerated characters has me thinking. I know, scary, right? Anyway, I have in my head first-hand and second-hand knowledge of how pregenated characters are used and what their value to our little Society is. I'd like to gather some feedback from different regions around the world from all of you people who play pregens or coordinate game days and hand them out.
I'll get the ball rolling:
The appearance, quality and availability of pregens is often the first impression for someone new to PFRPG. Missing classes, having obvious errors, or being overly ineffective can turn (and have turned) people off from PFS.
Level 1 Pregens:
-Make up >90% of pregens used at small game days.
-Need to be simple for new players to understand.
-Need to have a few neat tricks to grab the attention of players. Something to help the "generic" character stand out.
Level 4 Pregens:
-Are pretty rare in my experience.
-Have the advantage of not being first level, but not so high level that players "wanting to try this game out but don't want to play first level" don't endanger the party.
Level 7 Pregens:
-Are used by players who want to try PFRPG but hate low-level play.
-Get more use at larger conventions.
-Are Kyra >70% of the time.
-Get used as an GM PC too often, usually resulting in bad things.
-No matter how well built, most players using them aren't effective enough at this level and often results in difficulty for "real" characters at the table.
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I think my experience is about the same as yours Kyle.
(granted since I've only done bout 11 events as a DM it's a smaller purview).
I've had one bad fall out come from a player playing a 4th level Kyra (he died and now is sweating the money to get up to rez his credited character by the time he hits 5th level (playing up a tier))
My experience with the 7th level character is much less. Just one event.
I agree with all your points. My issue is that..well.. the iconics have a bit of a 'thrown together' feel. at points.
Like having a caster beyond first with no spellcraft skill.
On the table usually the rogue and cleric are the ones get the play, with samurai and ninja next up.
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Off topic
I've had one bad fall out come from a player playing a 4th level Kyra (he died and now is sweating the money to get up to rez his credited character by the time he hits 5th level (playing up a tier))
Sorry to break this to you Thomas, though that was a idea Mike put forth at first when he was talking about changing the Pregen rules, there is no "Holding" the credit from a Pregen death in hopes of paying it off later before reaching that level.
If my PC or pregenerated character dies permanently, what happens?
Player characters and pregenerated characters who do not return to the realm of the living receive 0 XP, 0 PP, 0 gold, and no items or boons. This is marked on their Chronicle sheet along with a note that the character is permanently dead. If a player was planning to hold the Chronicle from a pregenerated character and apply it to a lower level PC once the PC reached the level of the pregenerated character, they must either apply the Chronicle sheet immediately and report the PC as dead or assign the Chronicle sheet to a new level 1 PC (ie a new PC number) and report that character as dead.
So either the PC he was holding it for is Dead, or a new PC he never played is Dead.
And on Topic.
I am going to change my last post on my experience on this subject in the last thread.
For Local play Pregen play is mostly seen to fill a 3 player table.
Then to cover someone who does not have a high enough PC, so 4th and 7th level, more 4 then 7.
And lastly for a new player, usually the new player has enough time to make a PC.
For Convention play
The Vast majority of time I see Pregen play is for new players and 90% they are 1st level, and 99% they are core classes. Only twice did someone pic a non core class, once a Ninja the other the Gunslinger.
I have seen a small handful of time pregen play higher then 1st but they are rare since most of the times I get a player without a PC of that level I try to find them another table to play at for 1st level.
I did once Muster a 6 player table for a Tier 7-11 game with 5 Pregens, but that was only due to the 5 players wanted to play together and wanted to play that scenario and I could not convince them otherwise.
I have never seen Pregen play to fill a 3 player table at a convention.
I personally think it is a waste of effort to make pregens for anything other then Core Class because of the lack of interest I have seen for them.
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Level 1 Pregens:
- are decent, if suboptimal builds. Nothing that can't get through a level 1 scenario with some teamwork though.
- Meresiel and Kyra are the best, and Ezren is awful
Level 4 Pregens:
- start to lose what steam they had
- Kyra often complains about her chosen spell list and asks to change it
- Meresiel remains the best and most versatile pregen due to skills and a +1 weapon with a good to-hit score
- have a ton of consumables that should be used completely
Level 7 Pregens:
- are pretty terrible when compared to any level 7 character
- Ezren has gotten better, but is a really lazy wizard when it comes to scribing
- have a ton of consumables that should be used completely
I would like to see some of these pregens improved. As for the level 1 versions, I'm tempted to take other pregens or make up a giant list of class/race combinations with pregenerated characters, because they don't even need to use the level 1 pregens.
Also, Valeros is always terrible.
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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I am a new player, so you folks should probably take this with a grain of salt, but in my second PFS game (I started playing at a con and had not yet developed a character), I played a 5th level Kyra pregen. While I enjoyed the game (We had a GREAT table and GM), I found it difficult to connect with Kyra without any information about her as a character. I think it would be good if future pregenerated characters could have a paragraph or two about the character's personality and motivations. Perhaps also a brief strategy synopsis because most new players will not really fully understand what their character can do. The player shouldn't be required to follow it, but it would be nice for those of us who are completely lost. Just my two cents.
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Mergy, d20pfsrd hosts a ton of 1st level stock PCs. (Not calling them pregens to prevent confusion with the official PFS pregens). It's a good resource.
Those are not pregens and should not be used as such.
Unless you made the PC yourself I have no interest in auditing a random level one PC taken from d20PFSRD.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Mergy, d20pfsrd hosts a ton of 1st level stock PCs. (Not calling them pregens to prevent confusion with the official PFS pregens). It's a good resource.Those are not pregens and should not be used as such.
Unless you made the PC yourself I have no interest in auditing a random level one PC taken from d20PFSRD.
Do you audit every character that comes across your table?
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Do you audit every character that comes across your table?Mergy, d20pfsrd hosts a ton of 1st level stock PCs. (Not calling them pregens to prevent confusion with the official PFS pregens). It's a good resource.Those are not pregens and should not be used as such.
Unless you made the PC yourself I have no interest in auditing a random level one PC taken from d20PFSRD.
What do you think?
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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What do you think?Do you audit every character that comes across your table?Mergy, d20pfsrd hosts a ton of 1st level stock PCs. (Not calling them pregens to prevent confusion with the official PFS pregens). It's a good resource.Those are not pregens and should not be used as such.
Unless you made the PC yourself I have no interest in auditing a random level one PC taken from d20PFSRD.
I don't know. I have played 4 sessions and GMmed 2. I have never played at your table, and all of my games have been within my region. If I knew the answer, I doubt that I would have asked the question.
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Kyle,
This is good input, but I'm pretty sure the pregens are what they are going to be. Mark has said we'll be using the level 1 and level 7 pregens from the NPC Codex and Paizo will be developing level 4 pregens that fit between the 1's and 7's.
As to the strength of pregens, this has been said many times before. They are not power builds so that most any player can go on to create a better PC on their own. The pregens are not meant to be great. Good enough, yes. But not characters that anyone will want to play long-term.
There has been lots of talk about pregens before. Paizo has developed the iconics into what they are with the release of the NPC Codex. I'm pretty sure this thread won't change them.
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Kyle,
This is good input, but I'm pretty sure the pregens are what they are going to be. Mark has said we'll be using the level 1 and level 7 pregens from the NPC Codex and Paizo will be developing level 4 pregens that fit between the 1's and 7's.
As to the strength of pregens, this has been said many times before. They are not power builds so that most any player can go on to create a better PC on their own. The pregens are not meant to be great. Good enough, yes. But not characters that anyone will want to play long-term.
There has been lots of talk about pregens before. Paizo has developed the iconics into what they are with the release of the NPC Codex. I'm pretty sure this thread won't change them.
Sorry, but I think you completely missed the concept of the original post and instead injected your own opinion of what what said ...
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Ok, so far, the major issue I have with Kyra is why they have healing spells prepared when she can spontaneously cast healing spells.
At level 1, the prepared cure light wounds is her Healing Domain spell, so no big deal. At 1st level, this actually makes better sense than endure elements.
At level 7, however, all her domain spells are taken from the Sun Domain, and she has a cure spell of every level prepared. Why? This tactically makes her less versatile than she could be.
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I don't know. I have played 4 sessions and GMmed 2. I have never played at your table, and all of my games have been within my region. If I knew the answer, I doubt that I would have asked the question.What do you think?Do you audit every character that comes across your table?Mergy, d20pfsrd hosts a ton of 1st level stock PCs. (Not calling them pregens to prevent confusion with the official PFS pregens). It's a good resource.Those are not pregens and should not be used as such.
Unless you made the PC yourself I have no interest in auditing a random level one PC taken from d20PFSRD.
And in that time did you or anyone at your table have their character audited?
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I can't speak for the developers, but my guess is that they listed the cure spells for those players who don't know the game well enough to know they can switch one out for a cure spell. Assuming that in the heat of combat the other players and GM may not remember to mention this.
Besides, what GM would require the player to use the memorized spells on a Kyra's sheet if they ask to change them?
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I can't speak for the developers, but my guess is that they listed the cure spells for those players who don't know the game well enough to know they can switch one out for a cure spell. Assuming that in the heat of combat the other players and GM may not remember to mention this.
Besides, what GM would require the player to use the memorized spells on a Kyra's sheet if they ask to change them?
I agree with this. While not optimized, this is what I'd expect to see on a pregen for someone who may just be sitting down because it's an open spot. Not ideal, but ideal doesn't happen every time.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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And in that time did you or anyone at your table have their character audited?I don't know. I have played 4 sessions and GMmed 2. I have never played at your table, and all of my games have been within my region. If I knew the answer, I doubt that I would have asked the question.What do you think?Do you audit every character that comes across your table?Mergy, d20pfsrd hosts a ton of 1st level stock PCs. (Not calling them pregens to prevent confusion with the official PFS pregens). It's a good resource.Those are not pregens and should not be used as such.
Unless you made the PC yourself I have no interest in auditing a random level one PC taken from d20PFSRD.
I asked my GM to look over my character, once I built him, to make sure he was legal. I have not seen other characters audited, but I have heard that some GMs do audit characters fairly thoroughly. Again, I don't know what everybody else does, I'm new to all of this. :P
My experience...
I've seen pregens used for two purposes, as noted by others: to fill out a table (Kyra, every single time!) and for walk-in players (I think I've seen the rogue, cleric, alchemist and cavalier Level 1 pregens used once each and the fighter Level 1 pregen used twice).
I hope the APG pregens come back (after a few corrections, of course). I think every time I've seen them offered, someone has selected one, possibly because the art is pretty cool.
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As to the strength of pregens, this has been said many times before. They are not power builds so that most any player can go on to create a better PC on their own. The pregens are not meant to be great. Good enough, yes. But not characters that anyone will want to play long-term.
I'm more concerned with the strength of their role within the campaign, not at the table. I could care less if they're optimized or whatever, as long as they're interesting and easy to play and capture the players attention and gets the player to be at least minimally invested.
How do you see them being used? When do you find them most helpful? When do you wish they were different (levels, build, presentation, etc)?
I've read from a few people and see a few players (dozen or so) want to scratch the name off and keep the pregen going forward. Why shouldn't they be designed to accommodate that?
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My experience...
I've seen pregens used for two purposes, as noted by others: to fill out a table (Kyra, every single time!) and for walk-in players (I think I've seen the rogue, cleric, alchemist and cavalier Level 1 pregens used once each and the fighter Level 1 pregen used twice).
I hope the APG pregens come back (after a few corrections, of course). I think every time I've seen them offered, someone has selected one, possibly because the art is pretty cool.
Thanks Hogarth. I've seen new players pick a pregen based solely on the art as well.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Hmm...idea...
What if we had packets for players with the pregenerated characters? It could have the official pregen sheet, a page with the character information that I mentioned above, basic explanations about how the abilities and spells on the character sheet work, and a character sheet with a blank name area, already filled in with the pregen's info. Having a new player dig through the rulebook to look up each spell is arduous, and it would also be useful at cons, because the player could then just write the character name in and go without having to take time to transcribe the character between sessions.
Perhaps these packets could also have a new pre-registered PFS number as well?
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I also wish they were more playable for a variety of styles. A mean a twfing fighter?!? The only one I've ever seen in play is the pregen. Couldn't you just make one with things like power attack, toughness, dodge, a greatsword, a longsword, and a shield? That way the player could simply pick his style and go with it.
Another example, the level 1 rogue should have had a bow and at least one social skill.
Spells memorized by the wizard also could have been the more frequently used spells. For example, a level 1 wizard should have had color spray or sleep already memorized. Both are in the spellbook, but new players commonly stick with the very poor burning hands and magic missle and skip the arcane bond spell altogether.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Besides, what GM would require the player to use the memorized spells on a Kyra's sheet if they ask to change them?Is that PFS legal? My understanding about the pregens is that they have to be used exactly as-is.
A cleric prepares spells daily. If the party isn't in a time crunch...24 hours pass, and Kyra selects new spells for the day?
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Okay - maybe this is a contrarian opinion here.
I've seen a lot of use of the PreGen Characters. In my view they are a great tool for starting players and despite the constant downsides I hear - I actually think they work - maybe with the exemption of Ezren who would be better suited as blaster as done in the Beginner Box.
What is this experience being based on?
Locally we have:
2 level 7+ Kyra characters - originally based on level 1 Kyra, even in one case using her mini
2 level 5+ Valeros chacarters - originally based on level 1 Valeros, a third one now level 4
1 level 1 Fighter, level 4 Magus - originally based on level 1 Valeros
2 level 4+ Merisiel characters - originally based on level 1 Merisiel
These are 7 characters by 7 different players. I would reckon that >85% of players here did start their first character either with one of the four official pre-gens (2/3 of players) or started with a pre-gen.
The whole opinion about pregens being underpowered is a matter of perspective. We do risk here to become elitist.
Yes - a pregen seems like a underpowered option for a player who knows what he is doing. But a pregen is a good base line and he tends to be stronger as a character generated by someone new to Pathfinder and new to overall RPG.
I'm probably in a very special situation that > 2/3 of local players I recruited here never have played RPG before. These players don't buy a Core Rulebook and lots of other books and know how their character will look at level 10. You slowly build them up, teach them. They find out how the game works, I slowly introduce them to what they actually might want.
And I still do a holding the hand for the first few levels that they upgrade their characters as they are lost doing it themselves.
Yes - ideally I would sit down with these players for 2 hours ahead of a game, talk them through and generate a character with them.
And I'm so glad that the rebuild rules now exist. It gives me a lot more freedom when the players have done the first few games.
This is quite a difference to convention play. There most players have a background in RPG, they know what they are doing, they are cappable of doing their characters themselves.
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So playing in 7-11s I generally don't like sitting down next to a player playing a pre-gen. As a general rule they are unfamiliar with their character's abilities and don't play the character with as much personality as a player playing a PC.
However I hated the elitism I found present when I tried to play LG, so I'm willing to make this compromise and play with the 7th level pregens to avoid the issue of "earning the right to play."
As a side note I did have a pleasant experience with a 7th level pregen at Nuke-Con this year. A player who hadn't realized their cleric had hit 10 until right before the slot started played the 7th lvl Kyra in a 5-9. They played it skillfully and breathed more flavor into Kyra than I had ever seen done before. In this case at least, having her play the pregen was much better for everybody involved than turning her away.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Besides, what GM would require the player to use the memorized spells on a Kyra's sheet if they ask to change them?
Is that PFS legal? My understanding about the pregens is that they have to be used exactly as-is.
Avatar-1, Kyra is allowed to prepare spells as she pleases at the beginning of the day. I consider the spells listed to be those she has prepared on the day of the Venture Captain briefing.
Both Kyra and Ezren need to have cheat sheets for their spells. If you hand a new player just the character sheet, he doens't have enough information available to play the character.
I would like to see four-page sheets, akin to those in the Beginner Box, for all the 1st-level pre-gen characters.
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The d20pfsrd "quick start" characters are not pre-gens, sveden is right. They can't be used to fill out a table with only three PCs.
But they are great for giving a new player over a hundred reasonable choices for a new character, quickly customizable if the player has her heart set on something specific. And with the Level 1 Retraining rules, the quick-start characters can serve as a good basis for rebuilding and tweaking the character before 2nd level.
I appreciate the work that went into those builds, and I am a big fan of the results.
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Both Kyra and Ezren need to have cheat sheets for their spells. If you hand a new player just the character sheet, he doens't have enough information available to play the character.
I know that level 1 Ezren has short blurbs for all of his prepared spells.
Spells Ezren can cast the following spells (either from memory or from his spellbook). For full spell descriptions for these and the unprepared spells in his spellbook, see Chapter 10 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Acid splash: Ranged touch attack (+2 to hit, range 25 feet) deals 1d3 points of acid damage.
Burning hands: 15-foot cone of fire deals 1d4 fire damage to all within (Reflex save for half damage).
Detect magic: Detects all spells and magic items within a 60-foot cone.
Light: Touched object shines like a torch for 10 minutes.
Mage armor: Gives subject +4 armor bonus for 1 hour.
Magic missile: Dart of force automatically hits target within 110 feet, dealing 1d4+1 damage.
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I'll agree with everything Kyle said in his first post with these exceptions (from my experiences, Kyle has WAY more experience than I, check out all those stars).
Level 7 Pregens:
-Are used by players who want to try PFRPG but hate low-level play.
-Get more use at larger conventions.
-Are Kyra >70% of the time.
-Get used as an GM PC too often, usually resulting in bad things.
-No matter how well built, most players using them aren't effective enough at this level and often results in difficulty for "real" characters at the table.
I have had pretty much the opposite experience with level 7 pregens.
-Most of the people who use them were planning on playing a lower tier scenario but that table didn't make (or they occasionally step aside for another player) and they don't have a level-appropriate character.-Are used as "something different" which often leads to players doing unusual (annoying) things.
-Get used by new players at medium game days/small conventions. At large conventions new players are aggressively shunted towards one of the always-running First Steps tables precisely because of Kyle's last point.
-The "GM PC" problem stems more from lack of players and the added knowledge of the GM than a real pregen issue. When confronted by a puzzle, the GM PC is usually not going to offer a solution since the GM would have to decide between offering up the (known) solution or deliberately leading the rest of the party down a poor path. If pregen Ezren has a choice between fireball, scorching ray, and magic missile vs. something the party hasn't figured out is immune to fire, dilemma.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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My highest character is still level 5, so for next week's game (tier 7-11), I'll be using a lvl 7 pregen. Our group only runs one table atm, and wants to draw in higher level players in the area.
My level 5 is a musket master, so I'm trying to figure out Lirianne, the gunslinger, at level 7. She's either short 3 hp or 3 skills, from favored class. Her initiative is off by 2 (valid if she's run out of grit), and her overencumbrance (15 lbs into medium) isn't reflected in her other stats.
Her gear shows two pistols, but higher in her stat block it lists three damage codes. That might not be an error, I'm not certain how to read it.
She also doesn't have two-weapon fighting, so I guess the extra gun is just there for reloading purposes?
And she's only got 25 shots. Which is pushing it a bit close. I don't think I've used that much in a single session before, but, I also haven't done that high of level.
Do we just assign the missing skills where we like at run time? Or do they turn into more hp?
Less relevant: what's her diety? Her class doesn't require it, but every character seems to have one anyways.
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Well let me start off by saying the gunslinger pregen is hard to use without an ultimate combat on hand by a new player, as the pre gen references abilities not listed on the sheet in the book.
The overall feel of the pregens as they stand...I like, for new players.
For recruiting experienced tabletop gamers...they are not so great.
For recruiting DnD players of other editions...they are ok.
For recruiting people who have never seen a role playing table top game...they're great.
When we view the pre gens through the "generalized" eyes of those experience levels we can better provide feedback as to how to improve them.