Large whips and reach


Rules Questions

Contributor

7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required.

Thanks to this page, I understand how reach weapons work on a large creature. For a medium creature normally a reach weapon adds an extra 5 ft. of reach. However, a whip adds 10 ft. for a total 15 ft. reach.

The question is, how does the work for a large creature with a large whip? Would it be a total of 25 ft. of reach or 30 ft.?


It's 30 feet (and 45 feet for Huge). Where normal Reach weapons double your reach, Whips triple it.


The Balor from the Bestiary is a Large creature, with a Reach of "10 ft. (20 ft. with whip)". Perhaps that will help.


donato wrote:
Thanks to this page, I understand how reach weapons work on a large creature.

Note that's an unofficial page, and some of the diagrams are incorrect. Ten foot reach doesn't really threaten the second diagonal because that square is 15 feet away.

The official interpretation is you threaten that square only when a creature in that square provokes by moving directly towards you. The AoO happens in that 15' square, not the adjacent one. You don't threaten the square for all other purposes (making a regular attack, threatening for all non-movement, or movement to the side or away).

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Grick wrote:
donato wrote:


Note that's an unofficial page, and some of the diagrams are incorrect. Ten foot reach doesn't really threaten the second diagonal because that square is 15 feet away.

what are you smoking? 10' reach is square in pathfinder, it does indeed threaten two squares away from a creature. the diagrams may not be offical, but they're accurate for Pathfinder


10' reach is square in 3.5. The rule that makes 10' reach square was omitted in Pathfinder.


JJ's interpretation is that Large + Whip = 30'.


Roberta Yang wrote:
It's 30 feet (and 45 feet for Huge). Where normal Reach weapons double your reach, Whips triple it.

what happens when your normal Reach is 0'?

AFAIK, 'normal' Reach weapons (e.g. Long Spear) have 5' reach in that case. what would whip do?


Quandary wrote:

what happens when your normal Reach is 0'?

AFAIK, 'normal' Reach weapons (e.g. Long Spear) have 5' reach in that case. what would whip do?

10', going by JJ again.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

If you don't follow the 3.5 method of determining reach. then Reach weapons have a "hole" in their defense at corners where opponents can step through and go from 15' to 5' adjacent without provoking an attack of opportunity.

I'm just discovering this as a "change" in wording from 3.5.

its discussed elsewhere, but I don't know if a developer has addressed it link

edit: found grick's discussion with SKR
link

it still seems like a pretty arbitrary change , like something that surprised even the developers. gah.

Contributor

Well, I'm glad to have rulings from James. Has there been any other clarification as to how Reach works for anything other than Medium creatures?


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

well, as per the already posted JJ comment/link, he's saying that whips triple normal reach, except for 0' reach, where it increases the 0' reach by the same amount it is increasing 5' reach (apparently), so 0' reach creatures have a 10' reach using a whip (and 5' with normal reach weapons).

but JJ's comment doesn't match how the actual Balor Demon is the Bestiary is statted up: normal reach 10', 20' reach with whip (unlike the 30' that JJ's comment would predict). i have no idea how that would affect other sizes of creatures, huge/gargantuan/colossal, and tiny/diminutive/fine.

barring further discoveries or paizo intervention, i would say it is safe to use the balor's whip reach for other large creatures using a whip, although perhaps the balor's whip reach is in error and should be errata'd...?


I am absolutely for giving Balor's 30' Reach with whips.

Now all I need to do is find some abilities that allow a Balor to threaten with a whip, and/or switch out some feats to grant Whirlwind Attack on a custom Balor and we have the beginnings of a real party.

They've gotta earn that CR somehow.


Troubleshooter wrote:
Now all I need to do is find some abilities that allow a Balor to threaten with a whip,

The feat Improved Whip Mastery will let the Balor threaten with a whip, though only for 15 feet instead of the full 30.


Whips are a odd case unlike normal reach weapons they simply list their reach. Going by raw everything has 15ft reach with a whip. Sadly a lack if whip using creatures above or below small or medium make it hard to tell the RAI on a whip.


yeah, please hit FAQ people, hopefully to either errata the balor to match JJ's comment if that's the case, or just make the whip text clearer for all cases... i.e. if it just adds 10' to your reach regardless of size (in which case it's worse than regular reach weapons at some sizes). it'd be nice to have text explaining how reach weapons work for 0' reach creatures as well.

Contributor

I am raising my own thread. I just read this line in the 'Big and Little Creatures In Combat' section of the Combat chapter:

PRD wrote:
Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to double their natural reach but can't strike at their natural reach or less.

It seems to me that this is implying that for Medium and Small creatures, the whip is an exception and grants an extra 5 feet of reach. However, larger creatures are "hard-coded" to only have up to double their natural reach regardless of the weapon used. Thoughts?


donato wrote:

I am raising my own thread. I just read this line in the 'Big and Little Creatures In Combat' section of the Combat chapter:

PRD wrote:
Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to double their natural reach but can't strike at their natural reach or less.
It seems to me that this is implying that for Medium and Small creatures, the whip is an exception and grants an extra 5 feet of reach. However, larger creatures are "hard-coded" to only have up to double their natural reach regardless of the weapon used. Thoughts?

I don't really think it changes anything.

The quoted rule concerning large creatures and reach, is exactly the same as for medium creatures. The wording is important, since larger creatures got different reach based on their form.

Basically, you can't discuss the whip based on the wording in the books.
As written, it doesn't make sense for larger creatures, since it has got a flat 15 ft. reach per the description.
Now, this doesn't make much sense, a gargantuan giant wielding the same length whip as a halfling.

JJ has proposed a solution to that problem (whips granting triple reach), which works just fine despite being unofficial.

Dark Archive

Sorry for the necro but I've been looking for the answer to this and the fact that this has been marked as "no reply required" confuses me. There seem to be two pieces of evidence in figuring this out but both contradict each other: James Jacobs (30' reach) vs Balors (20' reach) (ps Paizo if you ever want to make a movie, there it is.) Is there some clarification that I missed that sides with either?


Hello I'm just bumping this thread as I am also looking for clarification on the reach large and huge creatures with whips.
JJ's interpretation seems to contradict that 20ft reach of Balors, which are large creatures. Has there been an official ruling?


I have been playing a whip magus character for the past 3 or so years in PFS. He has progressed all the way to 12th level. The general consensus has been that whips have 30 foot reach when large. I've played at a lot of tables, with many different GMs and none have ever ruled that the reach should only be 20 feet.

Definitely not an official ruling from on high, but this has been my general experience.


Kifaru wrote:

I have been playing a whip magus character for the past 3 or so years in PFS. He has progressed all the way to 12th level. The general consensus has been that whips have 30 foot reach when large. I've played at a lot of tables, with many different GMs and none have ever ruled that the reach should only be 20 feet.

Definitely not an official ruling from on high, but this has been my general experience.

That's always been my interpretation as well but my current GM has ruled whips to have the creature's natural reach +10ft.

Large = 20ft
Huge = 25ft
Gargantuan = 30ft

At higher levels this is even worse than normal reach weapons!
His reasoning is the stats of the Balor.
On the bright side, he challenged me to provide him with either an official ruling or an example of a large (or larger) creature which uses a whip to change his mind.
And thus the hunt begins...


Suggestion: Make a new thread. The "No reply required" response was common for the day because the FAQ system wasn't as sophisticated back then.


blahpers wrote:
Suggestion: Make a new thread. The "No reply required" response was common for the day because the FAQ system wasn't as sophisticated back then.

Thanks!

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