Ok, here's the situation:
The party wants to assert right to nobility in a backwater country that is racist and suspicious/unwelcoming to strangers. The reason for this is because the party has, by sweat, ingenuity, and good intention, cleared an area of land in this country that was accursed and dangerous -- which thanks to our efforts is now clean and safe. We were paid a pittance and denied any rights to build or develop there. Our GM is hard-nosed and despite my having HUGE knowledge skills and good rolls to boot, says there is "No precedent" for an outsider to take custody of such territory, even if it is used as part of the parent sovereignty and in good faith and service to the country. I have an idea for perhaps making that precedent, but I need help in mechanically getting the initial fib to work. Here's my idea/plan.
My character has through powers and skill ranks a GREAT linguistics skill. My linguistic check to forge would be D20+10 skill+20 from a special ability. So that's AT LEAST a 31 on how convincing my forgery will be, and I intend to forge false documents proving a member of our party is a few generations removed from a long deceased noble who helped found the colony in question. The documents will argue that one of our party members was an infant niece of one of these nobles or a relative thereof in the home country from which this colony sprung -- when the noble died after the founding, the fortunes of the family back home soured and they were forced to leave that parent country (ostensibly for the country the lady is actually from.) We have a ring of mind-shielding that while worn prevents the wearer from being effected by detect thoughts/discern lies/magical alignment detection -- We will no doubt have to go before one or perhaps a council of nobles to make our argument for her actually being an heir/of noble blood in this country. So the concern is -- how can be BEST make sure our lies hold water? The ring covers ONE of the two people required to make the con work (I'm the party face, lore guy, and guy with the diplomacy and bluff skills, though my bluff is far secondary to my knowledges and linguistics (my bluff is basically D20+12 -- by no means a guarantee to hit out of the park, and the would be heir is a very attractive specimen, but a barbarian by trade and likely not skilled at maintaining the ruse themselves. My idea is to show the documents of her lineage, vow that to prove her worth as one of the nation's noble daughters undertake a great quest, and return successful from that quest, and standing the requisite scrutiny, assert control of the territory in question.
So my questions are:
1) How can I maximize my bluff with minimum of expenditure so that while wearing the ring (or if I am required to give the ring to her so she can stand any chance at all of her lies carrying the day that I can be certain mine are convincing. Are there any ideas out there for boosting both of our bluff and diplomacy skills at the smallest expense?
2) By not telling HER the documents are forgeries, could that be enough to narrow the path of scrutiny only to me, for if she cannot know, and the documents are supremely convincing even to experts, doesn't that make her proof to scrutiny as it may very well seem to her, however unlikely, that she IS the heir? Is there anything else we can do to make her seem more the part either by idea or mechanically to the game?
3) What additional probes, tricks, counters should I prepare for so that I can pull the con off? If I get a great bluff roll perhaps that will carry the day, but the idea is to mitigate the risk as well as possible. Are there spells or potions that will improve my chances?
4) How if in any way could you improve the plan?
MUCH appreciated if you have any help or counsel!!!
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Long ago , bards could read the history of an object. I did not find any spell that allow to do this in Pathfinder, still it might be interresting to cast a misdirection on the forged paper in order to make them "old". (Another way is to travel back in time in order to write the paper, but it can be a little bit difficult;-) )
I'm not counting on an actual ancient document, just official documents cobbled together from all the requisite convincing sources that point to the person in question being who they are -- that this founder was a noble person who died without heirs HERE, but at the time of his death he had young relatives (say a niece) that wouldn't be taken on such a dangerous endeavor where the noble did indeed die. The noble with exist, and the noble's relative in the parent country will also have existed, but left that country for parts unknown... I fabricate convincing documents of the country of the would-be scions country of origin that corroborates the other documents. Because of the stratospheric quality of the forgeries, and hopefully a really good bluff (or however many is necessary) -- the story will hold water.
I will also go on to say because it helps serve the case, that though new to the town I had already acted as a barrister in a case to clear a man of grave crimes and expose corruption in the government of this territory. I also spent a night in jail as well since then, which I was really upset on the basis of how that happened, but I got out the following morning. But I'm hoping my reputation as an exposer of truths and exhonorator of innocent men will speak well to the content of my character and back up my ruse.
Will check that out, and ask questions as necessary...
Also -- what DCs do you think I can expect to face under these circumstances relating to the forgery and my bluff?
Blackblood -- wouldn't a noble court certainly or at least have a chance of recognizing this item or the phenomenon of people's faces turning to stone and speaking in monotone? I could attempt to counter this by wearing authoritative vestments which could easily include heavy hood and robes to hide my face... I'm just wondering if such an item might be a dead giveaway in the presence of people who might be able to Identify the item or the phenomenon.
My GM plays by the books, but he is also hard-nosed, and I am beginning to think prone to railroading... so if we are going to overcome, we've got to be RIGHT AND TIGHT!
Well, first of all, talk to the group and the DM.
From your description, it sounds like your DM doesn't want your characters to become rulers of that area - maybe that's because he has other plans and doesn't want the campaign to turn into a kingmaker-esque kingdom simulation or doesn't want to DM such a scenario.
If that's the case, no bluff check, no ruse, literally no plan whatsoever will help you.
Your only possibility might be to let someone else take over the DM seat for a while (maybe the DM would like to play in such a scenario more than he seems to like ruling it).
Once you're all on the same page, you can continue planning the ingame part.
Your possibilites of course depend on your level (and wealth).
Modify Memory is a 4th level bard spell that could help you. Implant necessary memories into the would-be heir (for example, memories of her parents/a royal herald telling her of her noble bloodline) or erase your own memory of forging the documents and implant memories of your "research" so that no one has to bluff. One scroll costs 1000 gp. (You might want to take some wis-damaging poison to lower your will save first).
Glibness is 3rd level (525 gp per scroll) and helps with the actual bluffing.
White Knight's Pennon of Parley
Alter Self could help you by hiding the stone face.
But I'm hoping my reputation as an exposer of truths and exhonorator of innocent men will speak well to the content of my character and back up my ruse.
I'm surprised that you aren't dead already. Thats the true miracle here, that they haven't had you put off. Especially when you seem 100% set on not only creating waves in asserting birthrights, but are a emonstrating that you certainly wouldn't be stopping there.
If it were my campaign, they'd be using every nasty means at their disposal to ensure you 'went out of town to deal with some urgent business matters'.
:)
I'm worried the DM will just make you automatically fail anyway and railroad you all out of there, though that'd make him one incompetent DM.
I haven't asserted anything about the birthright yet -- indeed I haven't even told my would be noble my intent at this point. I'm sure the exposure of corruption did make waves, but the noble in question got his own quick and vicious desserts.
Still, thank you for letting me know some of what I can potentially expect. I suspect not just myself but most everyone at the table will be profoundly saddened if, even in light of great preparation, ingenuity, and powerful dice outcomes our GM would still rather take the piss out of us than make for an triumphant and satisfying turn in the story.
I'm really afraid for what that would mean for the campaign, Icyshadow -- because once it's obvious that no matter what you do the GM isn't going to let you off the rails no matter how compelling desire, justification, or dice-rolls are... it kind of compromises the game from being a collective story where the players have agency to a kind of "interactive movie" where we can say what we like but really nothing is going to happen that the GM hasn't decided or accounted for.
I find it hard to believe that a GM would elect rather than enabling his players to have fun to instead lash them to an oar even if the story would be better or the players happier if they had agency. I know it HAPPENS, but a GM that is more in love with saying "no" then "yes" to his players when being implacable won't make anybody happy, is disconcerting.
Anyway -- the whole "Railroad GM" topic has been done to death in other threads... lets stick to the question and matter at hand.
-V
Hey, I had a DM like that and the words hard-nosed and "making sure you have to pull off an insane stunt just to get this one thing" really remind me of said person, whom I refer to like a trauma victim of his torturer. Because that's basically what our campaigns eventually ended up being, on the mental level. Then again, I find it funny he and I used to be childhood pals yet he didn't invite me anywhere on his last b-day and hasn't spoken to me at all online or IRL.
Accusing the OP of being a munchkin is taking it a bit far, you know. If these guys help those people out, I think even racist tendencies would start to fade as they see how nice these guys are. Also, exceptions almost always exist even in insular societies, though these rebels are either quiet or discriminated for not going with the herd mentality of these backwater hillbilly idiots. The world is not static, and the actions of the players have consequences, in both the good and the bad.
The idea Lazar -- is that to deny the noble birthright of this outsider, when literally overwhelming evidence is put forward to it's veracity, is undermining the very system they believe in and depend on that sets them above everyone else. If they are so convinced and enamoured with their own superiority -- the idea of regaining a line of nobility previously thought lost, that not only promises but already HAS brought forsaken land back into the fold, and custodianship of said territory would not upset the natural order among the nobles as it might if they were say, vying for a slice of what was already claimed.
Wait, if it's "already claimed" then where are the real owners?!
JohnLocke90 -- We'd rather things be bloodless, we have no great love of the crueler side of the nobility and their elitist tendencies, but my character is neutral with good tendencies (though obvious moral flexibilities or such an intrigue would not be concieved of) -- the rest of the party is also for the better part good, but with accents on freedom and liberty that puts us at odds in our hearts against the nobles... the underclass is oppressed and we likely can do much more good within the system than outside of it... in fact that's certainly the case.
Even more to the point on viability of just knocking them over and asserting dominance -- we're impressive heroes (Epic 50-point builds to boot) ... but we're only 4th level. Perhaps the master plan can wait until we're tenth if that adds additional legitimacy... but if everything adds up and the caper is achievable, why wait?
We can neither morally nor practically realize a bloody coup at this juncture, though the plot may lead us to depose these guys in the process of the adventure anyway. Even with that being the case, establishing legitimacy could only further strengthen our position if we ended up causing a shift of power. The regime moving in to replace the old one would either be ours, or would be profoundly sympathetic to us being instrumental to their instatement and be far more likely in the grand scheme of things to be welcoming of claims to land and titles... especially to keep us, as their "saviors" close.
Icyshadow -- I am saying the territory is NOT claimed. It was only recently purged of evil and is likely going to be populated by a small security force because of it's strategic significance. The person in charge of those troops is a bureaucrat and almost certainly not a noble.
Because the would-be Lady was largely responsible for it's liberation AND would be determined of noble birth, it is my hope to assert control of the territory by right of conquest, much like many nobles do. There is most certainly not a former noble claim to the island at least not in living memory, as it had long been written off as a kind of "badlands".
Your insight is very valuable Lazar -- and while getting additional suggestions to strengthen the ruse is important (AND THE ITEMS AND SPELL IDEAS SO FAR HAVE BEEN VERY HELPFUL) it is also a worthy input in my perception (and a great opportunity as a mental exercise to discuss it) in relation to the difficulties one may likely encounter.
Considering your feats, I'd say that despite a majority opposition towards your group, some nobles (one family maybe) might be willing to extend a helping hand, possibly to also further their own ends. Like I said earlier, the people there shouldn't all be caricatures of some stereo-typical racist morons, but be individuals with a few exceptions here and there who would rather judge by actions instead of looks. Like I said, my only concern is the DM at the moment.
Oooo! IMPORTANT NOTE!
Because my character is a Bard, I can substitute my Perform (Sing) skill for my bluff skill with Versatile performance.
because of this, just as people have offered items that will effect bluff, can anybody think of items that will effect my Sing? If I use my sing skill I will likely fare even better than Bluff alone... though it does give me pause that if I use versatile performance (sing) the items that effect bluff with not help.
Still... any thoughts on that angle?
I wouldn't know of anything to boost Perform skills that don't involve an instrument of any kind, but maybe your DM could give an RP bonus if you sing an epic tale of your deeds and of your right to own that land you wanted to claim? Then again, that scenario there might be wishful thinking on my end as an appreciator of RP. Also, have you tried checking up the SRD? Most of the magic items that could help are there, and it's updated regularly anyway.
1) How can I maximize my bluff with minimum of expenditure so that while wearing the ring (or if I am required to give the ring to her so she can stand any chance at all of her lies carrying the day that I can be certain mine are convincing. Are there any ideas out there for boosting both of our bluff and diplomacy skills at the smallest expense?
Scroll of glibness and use magic device
2) By not telling HER the documents are forgeries, could that be enough to narrow the path of scrutiny only to me, for if she cannot know, and the documents are supremely convincing even to experts, doesn't that make her proof to scrutiny as it may very well seem to her, however unlikely, that she IS the heir? Is there anything else we can do to make her seem more the part either by idea or mechanically to the game?
Yes. You are only bluffing when you know something is a lie. Someone doesn't need to bluff at all if you've bluffed them well enough. If you tell a guard "I am lord Trafalgar. tell the king i'm here to see him" the guard goes to his sergeant. His sergeant can sense motive, mind read, throw up a zone of truth, and subject the poor guard to full on mind probing but the guard actually believes that Lord Trafalgar is at the gates to see the king.
To that end, fake the documents/history... and send you own party after it on a rumor you overheard. Your fellow party member is a lot more likely to believe the story if they work for it.
Or the next time you're rooting through dusty tomes, slide the fake history book in the pile.
3) What additional probes, tricks, counters should I prepare for so that I can pull the con off? If I get a great bluff roll perhaps that will carry the day, but the idea is to mitigate the risk as well as possible. Are there spells or potions that will improve my chances?
Hire (if you can't do it yourself) bards, story tellers, minstrels, and actors to create/tell the tale of the long lost nobility come back to reclaim their ancestral lands. Get the common people on your side. History is REALLY easy to fake for the masses.
David... I am sure there could be a valid point in there somewhere, but you haven't adequately explained yourself sufficient to be understood. Perhaps that's a failing on my part -- but I don't think your one line response has shed any light here. If you are dropping a one-liner to say the proposed situation is impossible, you are not giving enough credit to the system or are being myopic if you can only see one outcome. Either way you probably don't belong in a thread posting where somebody is seeking advice/help in effecting a dynamic if your only contribution is to say it won't happen.
Even if you had an explanation as to why I could forsee attempted murder even in light of convincing them that could be anecdotally useful... but nope... I don't see that in there.
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Convincing someone of something that isn't true is the easy part. But just because someone believes something doesn't mean he automatically goes with it. A bluff check only convinces him of the truth, what he does with that information is up to him.
You're basically trying to tell the owner of a piece of land that that piece of land is actually yours. He'll believe you, but he's not going to like it.
That said, you could always use magic to convince him otherwise. Or make up an even more elaborate lie why it's in his best interest to let you do whatever you want to do with that land. And even then there's a chance he might choose to do it for you...
As for the DM: He could be railroading you, or you could just be way off track...
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The Bluff skill may convince the people that what you say is the 'truth'. That doesn't mean they'll like said 'truth'. If they are as insular and racist as you are leading us to believe, they may indeed find a means to get rid of you, even though you have the 'proper credentials'.
What you need here is diplomacy, although the DCs for those checks are going to be as steep if not steeper than your bluff DCs.
Thanks for elaborating David. That does help.
The land was forsaken, fallow, and uninhabited until the lady in question utterly purified it of evil and made is safe for travel/habitation. It would be one thing to be trying to take land already in possession of a different noble -- but instead we are arguing the case that she is of noble birth, and fate and divine providence have conspired to give her a territory here by virtue of her deeds to the country, further strengthening the case (divine right to rule and all)...
...It's not even an elaborate lie that they would profit for the territory being in her custodianship... The area is already worlds safer, and was an ignored and fallow territory before her efforts there.
I guess I'm with IcyShadow in that I'm counting on the nobles not all being charicatures of the cultural ethos... that some people will see the OBVIOUS merit and risk vs. reward of allowing this to happen.
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...It's not even an elaborate lie that they would profit for the territory being in her custodianship... The area is already worlds safer, and was an ignored and fallow territory before her efforts there.
I guess I'm with IcyShadow in that I'm counting on the nobles not all being charicatures of the cultural ethos... that some people will see the OBVIOUS merit and risk vs. reward of allowing this to happen.
Convincing them of this is in the territory of Diplomacy, not Bluff.
Diplomacy is not my concern because I'm far better at forming cogent arguments (and my skill is higher) in diplomacy than it is in bluff.
The main issues in my question where in the domain of bluff because bluff, being used to cover actual untruths, would expose us to liabilities when associated with spells to detect deceit. The alter memory spells should help nicely in hedging our untruth appearing true, because we will believe it when we tell our story with altered memories.
With a couple of diplomacy items it should be possible to use diplomacy to great effect, and if magic items are forbidden "Authoritative Vestments" are non magical and will still allow me to double-up the number of diplomacy checks to change people's perception of us. Hopefully with diplomacy maxed, I can use the vestments to move them, even if they begin at unfriendly -- at least two stages to indifferent and then friendly.
Once they are friendly, in the face of proof that will stand to enduring scrutiny, and our obvious sincerity -- Well... lets just say my GM would have to be a pretty awful dick to try and dissemble that... even if he could do a good job at that point.
@Stubs - This makes the caper more complicated, but it definately gives food for thought.
@Malach:
It should be painfully obvious to our GM that this is not only what ALL of his players want, but easily justifiably what they deserve.
It was the "No Precedent" remark that seemed to me that he was uncreatively handwaving a GM fiat -- but by the entire group doing one thing or another to engineer things in this direction I am hoping he gets the impression we're really serious about taking a pittance and walking away from the territory we single-handedly purified.
There is a council of nobles but it's been iterated that one noble in particular is the real power... they are very much instrumental to keeping the regime xenophobic, racist, and relatively hateful. The GM may use this reality (which was established even before we got it into our minds to make a play for the territory) to make us spin our wheels. If that's the case we may need to remove that woman... but I'm not sure... you can be the most hateful bastard in the world and if the diplomacy rolls put you from unfriendly to friendly... they've got to like us despite themselves.
So to answer your question there is a "King" of sorts (really a noble that is playing puppeteer) but they really are the last person in the land that would likely be receptive to our wiles. With our initial furtive requests and explanations to the GM is should have been abundantly clear that our intentions for the territory would be of great benefit to the local economy. The area formerly ATE commerce. We had resolved to make sure that it would instead be a waypoint for trade and protection of travellers in an area where the fiscal situation is sorely lacking. Wanting to do the right thing, astoundingly enough, hasn't proved to be a very compelling argument.
If it comes down to having to explain we've all got much bigger problems then trying to justify custodianship of a small hex of ground.
Sounds like I may decide to push the timetable on this further along, to about when the party is approx. 10th level -- Both so that my skills in defending the ruse will be able to stand on their own without magic items...
...and because it would be harder to justify putting a ceiling over us by nobles when we are reaching stratospheric levels of power. (10 isn't 20, but it's pretty damn amazing.) We'll be in a much better position to negotiate.
Thanks ot everyone that helped -- it will both assist in this matter, and in a lot of intervening matters as well.
Best of luck with the plan!!
Thanks Icy. I really appreciate it.
ya i really agree with the idea's Stubs is saying. You need to not use magic items as a crutch here as it would be fairly common knowledge that there is many magic items out there that would give advantage in these situations, and so that at the very least would be a expected safeguard from the nobles to watch for.
Also, you need to proactively gather info on who the nobles contacts are, specifically looking for any diviners that they might have access to, and then you need to convince these people via bribe,diplomacy,death ext that backing your story is for the best.
This isnt a easy ploy, but it sure would be fun to play out.
The other option is, plant your flag on the turf and say hey, it is ours now, but diplomacy to say you will pay taxes, homage ext to the nobles. But things like bluffs or shows of strength would be needed to show them you have the power to hold this land, and it is up to them if they would rather fight you and lose, or accept you in the fold as willing partner that only makes them stronger/richer.
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imo Start a revolution. If the underclass is oppressed, tell them to move to area X, where you will be providing food and some protection. Honestly if you WANT to do this and others are in on the idea and the GM says "No you can't do that, I don't want that to happen." See if somebody would be willing to step in and GM for him while this happens and give him a chance to play, or if he refuses to hand over the reigns find another GM.
The game is NOT about what the GM wants to happen so much as what the whole group wants to happen. If the GM is railroading this type of issue will pop up enough times to start bringing negative feelings into the game. I suggest talking to the other players, write up a list if they want to be in on the revolution/whatever and then present it to a GM along with a rough outline of how you guys would plan to take over the area.
Really the GM doesn't have to make the revolution into the main story but as a side adventure where you support the rebels by providing intel gathering, or send them artifacts that can help with their fight, there are many ways to wrap the story into whatever he has planned. He should at least consider your proposal and adapt for you guys as much as you are adapting for him.
As for the 'no precedent' How did the kingdom get formed in the first place unless someone came out here and asserted their rule on the area? The first rulers of an area are always the people who come from someplace else.
As for the 'no precedent'... How did the kingdom get formed in the first place unless someone came out here and asserted their rule on the area? The first rulers of an area are always the people who come from someplace else.
Racists don't understand logic on any level.
You should know better than trying to understand such scum.
