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i'm sure its been covered, i just don't wanna dig. my search fu sucks.
1. when a paladin is unconscious, using the infernal healing wand on her will not violate her paladin code, as she did not willingly accept it / may not ever know it was done to her.
2. while a paladin is conscious, but does not have spellcraft skill, if an ally does not ask her and instead just walks up and hits her with a wand of infernal healing in combat, does this violate her code of conduct? ( i allowed the paladin in question the will/harmless negates save, and as she saved, ruled it didn't violate her oath, but warned the player with the wand that it nearly did ). Was that correct? or is that also a non-violation because the player didn't ask the paladin first? or would that be "pvp-ing" by stripping another player of abilities ( kind of like putting some metal armor on the druid somehow =X)
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i'm sure its been covered, i just don't wanna dig. my search fu sucks.
1. when a paladin is unconscious, using the infernal healing wand on her will not violate her paladin code, as she did not willingly accept it / may not ever know it was done to her.
2. while a paladin is conscious, but does not have spellcraft skill, if an ally does not ask her and instead just walks up and hits her with a wand of infernal healing in combat, does this violate her code of conduct? ( i allowed the paladin in question the will/harmless negates save, and as she saved, ruled it didn't violate her oath, but warned the player with the wand that it nearly did ). Was that correct? or is that also a non-violation because the player didn't ask the paladin first? or would that be "pvp-ing" by stripping another player of abilities ( kind of like putting some metal armor on the druid somehow =X)
Why would this spell cause a problem with a Paladin’s Oath?
Because it has the Evil descriptor?
Because it makes then detect as evil for a few rounds?
Because it has the word “infernal” in its name?
Because it comes from Cheliax?
It has already been determined that casting an evil spell is not an evil act in PFS. The evil act is what you did with the spell. Albeit, if a Paladin cast the evil spell, that’s a different story.
For minor things like this, where it likely saved the Paladin’s life, I wouldn’t worry overly much about the Paladin’s paladinhood. Lets err on the side of the player.
However, if as a GM, you rule that casting this spell on a Paladin could hurt his code and paladinhood, then it could be construed as PvP and be handled as such.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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"Here, let me rub you with my Asmodeus Stick, it'll make you feel better." Is not the sort of phrase a paladin should nod his head at. If a paladin was regularly and knowingly benefiting from Infernal Healing, I'd say he was violating his vow (and willful ignorance is not a justification either).
That said, while I might make a comment to a player and raise an eyebrow, it's not the sort of thing a GM should write down on a chronicle sheet. That should be reserved for more egregious behaviors.
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BTW, my paladin will choose to not accept infernal Healing, especially from a caster of an evil deity. If someone offers healing not stating the source, and it ends up being infernal healing, he will make sure to let that person know to not ever do it again.
Furthermore (not 100% on this one), I believe you are still allowed to make a Will save even when unconscious to not accept infernal healing. I have done so in the past.
Finally, I think there is a difference of a Paladin accepting infernal healing once or twice to avoid, I dunno, DEATH, versus someone who will every time. I would have a problem with a Paladin that started an adventure "Infernal healing? Yeah no problem broski, hit me up with that stick every time I get hurt"
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I had a talk with him afterwards.By talk, I hope you mean a fist to the face.
No, I'm more even-keeled than that. I mean, I can understand the efficiency of it, and using it isn't evil in and of itself. I try not to force my own standards on others. He can use dark magic to heal himself, I just personally would rather it not be used on me.
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unless youre healed by my rogue with a ridiculously good bluff.
'that wand i just UMDed on you was a healing wand. a new kind they just invented. it's a stick how could it possibly be evil?'
assuming the paladin has no ranks in spellcraft. might want to put a point into it :)
regardless my stonelord paladin makes it a point to hunt down and kill devils so he has more blood component to heal himself so he cant hunt down more devils. that didn't start until i first played him though.
he always carries a 'special' wand with markings on it so he can only be healed with that one. which was made from the blood of that in the spoiler.
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anger leads to hate...
too bad paladin's don't get Dark Side points.
They certainly feel dirty though ...
The target detects as an evil creature for the duration of the spell and can sense the evil of the magic, though this has no long-term effect on the target’s alignment.
I guess losing your paladin-hood would be a long term effect...
I still don't like it.|
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that a paladin can willingly or otherwise, accept being anointed with demon blood and unholy water, and feeling the taint of evil they're radiating for a minute, but that it has no effect on her paladin code / alignment. Its counterintuitive. I feel any deity empowering said paladin or good cleric would want to strip their powers after such an act.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I can see your point if the PC in question prefers the use of infernal healing over cure light wounds and requests it and whatnot. On the other hand, your statement seems to imply that even unknowingly being the target ("willingly or otherwise", you said) constitutes something for which a deity would strip powers. If that's what you meant, then you must think deities are downright stupid, because they'd have to be in order to hold someone accountable for someone else's actions. So I hope you don't actually think that.
Really, the problem is just with the spell. The whole point of it and it being an evil act is to tempt people into using evil to help their goals. Classic case of evil tempting good with more powerful things. In this case, it's better than CLW. A spell like that is going to cause issues, especially when the target can sense the evil coursing through their veins. A lot of the balance for it is dependent on RP reasons :)
And a side note, I don't think paladins are necessarily servants of gods in Golarion, unless it's also something PFS specific and I missed it in the Guide. Their powers come partly from their rigid following of their code, as well as something like a consortium of (Lawful?) Good deities.
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Oh I've always seen paladins pick one of the LG deities to follow.
Yeah the original post was whether it would suck away the paladin's powers even if she unwittingly accepted it from an ally. But everyone's comments on the thread seem to read as : even if the paladin willingly accepts it, repeatedly, Infernal Healing cannot violate her oath.
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A paladin's code of conduct can't be violated by anyone but the paladin.
Although Infernal healing does not cause Paladins to loose their abilities and fall from grace, I have yet to see a Paladin take up the offer of healing from my morally ambiguous Bloatmage.
Most of the comments are just about never having seen a paladin willingly accept an Infernal Healing. Just Dennis would rule it violates the vow.
If a paladin was regularly and knowingly benefiting from Infernal Healing, I'd say he was violating his vow (and willful ignorance is not a justification either).
It has already been determined that casting an evil spell is not an evil act in PFS. The evil act is what you did with the spell. Albeit, if a Paladin cast the evil spell, that’s a different story.
For minor things like this, where it likely saved the Paladin’s life, I wouldn’t worry overly much about the Paladin’s paladinhood. Lets err on the side of the player.
However, if as a GM, you rule that casting this spell on a Paladin could hurt his code and paladinhood, then it could be construed as PvP and be handled as such.
to me that sounds like:
a. most players of paladins avoid the topic altogether by asking never to be healed with a wand of infernal healing if they know someone at the table has one.b. its not an evil act in pathfinder society, so even if they did willingly allow or have it cast on them while unconscious, it wouldn't break their oath.
b1. even if conscious, and not asked, it wouldn't violate their oath. so unless the paladin has words with the infernal healer after the combat to correct their behavior, tacit approval of Infernal Healing won't violate the oath.
c. only if the paladin cast it themselves ( UMD? ) or repeatedly asked for Infernal Healing every game ( hard to judge as some GMs will only witness the character infrequently ), would it be enough of a problem to require an Atonement or something.
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Characters who commit potentially evil acts (casting spells with the Evil descriptor, killing or maiming someone, etc.) while following specific orders from their faction or the Pathfinder Society, do not suffer alignment infractions. These are cases where karma applies to those making the orders, not their tools.
Alignment infractions are a touchy subject. Ultimately, the GM is the final authority at the table, but she must warn any player whose character is deviating from his chosen alignment. This warning must be clear, and the GM must make sure that the player understands the warning and the actions that initiated the warning. The PC should be given the opportunity to correct the behavior, justify it, or face the consequences. We believe a deity would forgive a one-time bad choice as long as the action wasn’t too egregious (such as burning down an orphanage full of children, killing a peasant for no good reason but sport, etc.). Hence, the GM can issue a warning to the player through a “feeling” he receives from his deity, a vision he is given, his conscience talking to him, or some other similar roleplaying event.
If infractions continue in the course of the scenario or sanctioned module, an alignment change may be in order. If the GM deems these continued actions warrant an alignment change, she should note it on the character’s Chronicle sheet at the end of the session in the Conditions Gained box. The character may remove this gained condition through an atonement spell. If the condition is removed, the GM should also note it on the Chronicle sheet.
Characters who become wantonly evil, whose actions are deliberate and without motive or provocation, are retired from the campaign. This measure is a last resort; there is more than one way to play a given alignment.
If a character has become wantonly evil as defined above, the GM should escalate the report to the convention coordinator, or the local Venture-Captain or Venture Lieutenant. If they agree with the GM, then the character is deemed wantonly evil and considered removed from the campaign. Again, these measures should be taken as a very last resort.
In the event of a wantonly evil character, record the character as “Dead,” and the person who enters the tracking sheet should check that box as well. If the convention coordinator, Venture-Captain, or Venture-Lieutenant decides the character fits the criteria for being wantonly evil, she will then email the campaign coordinator to advise him of the situation, including the player’s name, Pathfinder Society Number, character name, and email address. She will advise the player of these actions and offer the player the campaign coordinator’s email address so the player may present his case.
The Campaign Coordinator will present all facts to the Venture-Captains and Venture-Lieutenants at large with all names (both player and character) removed. If the majority of Venture-Captains and Venture-Lieutenants feel that the act was wantonly evil and the character is irrevocably evil, then character will remain removed from the campaign. If the majority feel the character should be able to atone for his actions, the campaign coordinator will contact the player and advise him of such. The email may be printed and taken to the next game session so the GM may adjudicate the atonement and document it on the Chronicle sheet of the that game.
Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine. Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil. Knights, crusaders, and law-bringers, paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve. In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of morality and discipline. As reward for their righteousness, these holy champions are blessed with boons to aid them in their quests: powers to banish evil, heal the innocent, and inspire the faithful. Although their convictions might lead them into conflict with the very souls they would save, paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to bring about a brighter future...
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code.
Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil.
A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description in Spell Lists), as appropriate.
Lawful Good: A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.
Lawful good combines honor with compassion.
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Never.
I do have a "Gothie" cleric of Zon Kuthion that uses my domain power.
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It is table GM's call to make, not mine or another player.
In your follow-up post
I think Dennis would be right if he was GM'ing.
I think Andrew would be right if he was GM'ing.
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I have several characters with infernal healing wands and one character with paladin levels.
I have never seen a paladin willing accept infernal once they knew what it was.
I have however cast infernal healing twice on paladins. Once they were a buddy of mine and I had been chasing them around with the wand all adventure and finally got my chance when he fell unconscious. The other time was near the beginning of an adventure and neither the other PC, nor their player was familiar with the spell. After casting it on them I believe the Paladin nearly threw up and asked me not to do that again. Considering it was the only source of healing we had in the lvl 1 group, it was a notable sacrifice for them to not receive any more healing from it.
I have never encountered Sveden's "Bro-adin" who thinks it's awesome to have infernal healing cast on their paladin. Every single time I've seen it come up the Paladin refuses once they know what is going on, and I've never seen anybody suggest that they should lose their powers for having it cast on them when they didn't know or were unconscious.
TLDR:
I've never seen any abuses but I do think it would be reasonable for a paladin to lose their powers if they consistently violated the spirit of their oath by consistently relying on evil magic to heal them.
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The thing is, the end result is you're healing someone.
It might be evil magic doing it, but if casting an evil spell is not considered an evil act, and the evil act is what you're doing with it, you'd better be infernal healing a demon for the spell to affect your paladin's alignment or break the code.
Healing your party, even with evil magic, even if you're a paladin, is still a good act.
Evil is evil, man.
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So I have a paladin 2 sorcerer 2 from what I have got from this thread is that so long as I use the wand of infernal healing to heal a team mate I stay paladin, however if I use it to wake up BBEG and my team mates begin to "torture" him I then have to atone or have I missed the point somewhere along the line? Thank you for your time
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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So I have a paladin 2 sorcerer 2 from what I have got from this thread is that so long as I use the wand of infernal healing to heal a team mate I stay paladin, however if I use it to wake up BBEG and my team mates begin to "torture" him I then have to atone or have I missed the point somewhere along the line? Thank you for your time
Casting an evil spell will not violate the Pathfinder Society 'You may not be evil' rule, but will violate your Paladin oath IMHO.
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So I have a paladin 2 sorcerer 2 from what I have got from this thread is that so long as I use the wand of infernal healing to heal a team mate I stay paladin, however if I use it to wake up BBEG and my team mates begin to "torture" him I then have to atone or have I missed the point somewhere along the line? Thank you for your time
Expect extreme table variation.
I'm in the camp that wouldn't allow a paladin to do this. GMs that I respect would have no problem with it.
But keep in mind your GM IS right at their table. They have the responsibility of deciding. You get to make your case but THEY decide. And you then have to accept their ruling graciously. If you can't live with that don't do it
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Really, the problem is just with the spell. The whole point of it and it being an evil act is to tempt people into using evil to help their goals. Classic case of evil tempting good with more powerful things. In this case, it's better than CLW. A spell like that is going to cause issues, especially when the target can sense the evil coursing through their veins. A lot of the balance for it is dependent on RP reasons :)
And a side note, I don't think paladins are necessarily servants of gods in Golarion, unless it's also something PFS specific and I missed it in the Guide. Their powers come partly from their rigid following of their code, as well as something like a consortium of (Lawful?) Good deities.
Clerics, inquisitors, paladins, cavaliers of the
order of the star, and samurai of the order of the star must
choose a deity as all classes in Golarion that receive spells
and abilities from a specific divine source receive their
powers from a deity. Druids, oracles, and rangers are
the exception to this rule.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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But keep in mind your GM IS right at their table. They have the responsibility of deciding. You get to make your case but THEY decide. And you then have to accept their ruling graciously. If you can't live with that don't do it
In other words: Of course you can play your character as you see fit, but the GM can play your diety the way he sees fit! :-)
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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HEY! My neutral aligned magus sees nothing wrong with a wand of infernal healing. He just goes around calling it a wand of regeneration.
Those pesky paladins, with their stuck up attitudes won't even know the difference...unless they use a detect evil on the person affected by the wand. Which they shouldn't do if I make a decent bluff roll.
(1) You can't use Bluff on another player, Matt.
(2) I would be very, very, very careful. I've seen situations much more benign than this, and they have nearly came to blows between players. In most cases, the session has fallen apart and people walked away with a 0 XP, 0 PP Chronicle sheet and a bad taste in their mouth.
If your magus casts infernal healing on a character without her permission, by lying about which spell he's casting, he has legitimately broken the trust of the party. It may or may not be considered PVP -- that's a GM call -- and if you cast it on a "pesky" paladin, that may or may not require an atonement on the recipient's part -- also a GM call, since the paladin chose to voluntarily fail his saving throw and accept the benefits of an Evil-aligned spell -- but it's absolutely going to get the character angry at your magus.
(And it doesn't require detect evil. All it requires is a modest Spellcraft check. Depending on the GM, perhaps not even that. "The target detects as an evil creature for the duration of the spell and can sense the evil of the magic ...")
At the very least, you -- the player -- should make clear to the other players what spell is being cast. Otherwise, you're breaking the trust of the other people around the table.
And I stand by that advice. At a PC level, try to describe the situation so it makes a fun story. On the players-around-a-table level, there shouldn't be any surprises about infernal healing.
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HEY! My neutral aligned magus sees nothing wrong with a wand of infernal healing. He just goes around calling it a wand of regeneration.
Those pesky paladins, with their stuck up attitudes won't even know the difference...unless they use a detect evil on the person affected by the wand. Which they shouldn't do if I make a decent bluff roll.
And I stand by that advice. At a PC level, try to describe the situation so it makes a fun story. On the players-around-a-table level, there shouldn't be any surprises about infernal healing.(1) You can't use Bluff on another player, Matt.
(2) I would be very, very, very careful. I've seen situations much more benign than this, and they have nearly came to blows between players. In most cases, the session has fallen apart and people walked away with a 0 XP, 0 PP Chronicle sheet and a bad taste in their mouth.
If your magus casts infernal healing on a character without her permission, by lying about which spell he's casting, he has legitimately broken the trust of the party. It may or may not be considered PVP -- that's a GM call -- and if you cast it on a "pesky" paladin, that may or may not require an atonement on the recipient's part -- also a GM call, since the paladin chose to voluntarily fail his saving throw and accept the benefits of an Evil-aligned spell -- but it's absolutely going to get the character angry at your magus.
(And it doesn't require detect evil. All it requires is a modest Spellcraft check. Depending on the GM, perhaps not even that. "The target detects as an evil creature for the duration of the spell and can sense the evil of the magic ...")
At the very least, you -- the player -- should make clear to the other players what spell is being cast. Otherwise, you're breaking the trust of the other people around the table.
Well, to be fair, the poster necroing the thread changed the question...it wasn't can I cast infernal healing on the paladin. It is now, can the paladin cast infernal healing with no ramifications? IMO, the answer is no.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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It is now, can the paladin cast infernal healing with no ramifications? IMO, the answer is no.
Does casting evil spells cause an alignment infraction?
Casting an evil spell is not an alignment infraction in and of itself, as long as it doesn't violate any codes, tenents of faith, or other such issues. Committing an evil act outside of casting the spell, such as using an evil spell to torture an innocent NPC for information or the like is an alignment infraction. For example: using infernal healing to heal party members is not an evil act.
So as long as your specific deity doesn't have any tenets more stringent than the default "don't commit evil acts", a PFS paladin can absolutely use IH without penalty.