Opinion - Scout Variant for Rogue or Ninja Worth It?


Advice

Shadow Lodge

I'm debating between using the Scout Variant with my Ninja. I just can't decide whether the trade-off of uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge for increased sneak attack opportunities is worth it. My character is a two weapon fighting build, heavy dex and charisma. Part of me believes that if I play it smart, the Scout Variant is less powerful than just playing the Ninja straight.

Thoughts?

Silver Crusade

It's nice that you can basically move and get your sneak attack. I've never been a huge fan of uncanny dodge. Now if it was something where you'd lose evasion, that would be a different story.

Really though, you're going to want to be in situations where you can make as many attacks as possible, so you get as many bites at the apple for sneak attack.

I guess at the end of the day, it's not a bad trade. I think it's actually pretty good. It guarantees a sneak attack if you hit while closing on a monster, which is nice. But I think that if you're playing properly, you're not going to see a benefit from it most of the time.


I have no real idea on how the Ninja works, so someone else will have to answer that.

On the Rogue: Scout - I think you're coming out ahead in the deal. Smart enemies will try to break your flanking attack so you wont get your SA in. With Scout (and a high enough acrobatics) you should get at least 1 SA attack in on your target per turn.


seems great for SAing while closing or positioning on the field, or the rare cases with a highly mobile opponent forcing you to chase them constantly (or just plain kiting you).


I've had scout and non-scout rogues in parties with me, and I think the value of the scout abilities is relative to what strategy you would be using instead.

Example #1 - Mobile Rogue - If you have good mobility, a high strength, a two-handed weapon, and each hit is dealing more than just sneak attack damage, one really good hit per round is your goal. Scout can help guarantee that one hit always has sneak attack damage.

Example #2 - Careful Rogue - If you have two-weapon fighting, low strength, and are counting on multiple attacks per round to deal damage, adding SA to a single attack on a movement round is fairly minor. You'd be better off using an item to cast Vanish on yourself and moving into position for a full attack from invisibility - ideally one that also sets up flanking.

Example #3 - Lazy Rogue - If you have two-weapon fighting, but you're not going to go through the trouble to play very carefully and coordinate with your melee buddies, pets, and summons to set up flanking, and use vanish/invisibility to set up SA when necessary, then you might want Scout anyway. It will make your bad-turns less bad.


I see scout as being most useful in two builds.

Mobile skirmisher-Two handed weapon. High str. Vital strike (I know people call this a trap feat but I disagree. It has its place in niche builds that max DPR is not the only goal.)

Archer Rogue-Since SA can be more then a little problematic to get at ranged it can work well here. Though again the build would need to focus on one powerful hit a round.

Best DPR? likely not but both could be fun to play. As for its usefulness in more normal rogue builds? Limited but there certainly are worse choices.


^ What?

What place does a feat that does nothing but increase damage (at tiny amount for the cost of entry) have in a build not focused on damage?

Dark Archive

Generally, taking a full attack is much better than using Vital Strike.

Also, iirc, you can't charge and use Vital Strike at the same time, so it'd probably be of questionable use to a Scout.


Because a build focused on damage would be a build focused on standing toe to toe and full attacking. Mobile builds are not that.

Vital strike not nearly as tiny if you put some thought into it. Get a large bastard sword (With EWP it is one handed. So you can wield a large bastard sword two handed at -2. That -2 means little when you are not full attacking.) get the impact enchantment. Wand enlarge person. (these do stack as only one is acutely a size increase.)

Add with this some extra source of damage. Like SA, Smite evil, Even channel smite can work. And things don;t honestly look so back for mobile builds. Not great but not bad.

Just because a build is not focused on DPR alone does not mean one should not try to make it as effective as they can.

Best build ever? Nope but stepping outside the run of the mill builds is nice now and then.


Seranov wrote:

Generally, taking a full attack is much better than using Vital Strike.

Also, iirc, you can't charge and use Vital Strike at the same time, so it'd probably be of questionable use to a Scout.

Well pre-lvl 8 anyway. But seeing as a rogue does not have the BaB for vital strike until lvl 8......

Dark Archive

...I guess I need to go reread the Scout archetype. Does it change something about how the charge action works, because otherwise it doesn't combine with Vital Strike at all. At least if what I had read previously is correct.

-e-

PRD wrote:
Skirmisher (Ex): At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.

Oh. Oooooohhh. Oooooooooooohhhhhhhh.

Yes, this is completely legitimate, then! My bad.


Seranov wrote:

...I guess I need to go reread the Scout archetype. Does it change something about how the charge action works, because otherwise it doesn't combine with Vital Strike at all. At least if what I had read previously is correct.

-e-

PRD wrote:
Skirmisher (Ex): At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.

Oh. Oooooohhh. Oooooooooooohhhhhhhh.

Yes, this is completely legitimate, then! My bad.

No worries. Happens to the best of us. there is just far to much stuff to remember it all at a drop of a hat.


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Scouts can make real good charger builds. I peronly like the Scout/Thug combo. So i can debuff with my sneak attack, too.

You do not need vital strike if you use the right kind of equipment. High damage dice weapon + Belt of Thunderous Charging (UE, weapon damage increase by 2 size categories on a charge) +
Rino Hide. Will lead to good damage on a charge for any character. Adding sneak attack makes this damage amazing. Power Attack + Furious Focus gives an other damage boost with a little penalty (you only want to attack once). See the build below and calc the numbers...

Race: Orc
Class: Rouge (Scout/Thug) 4/Alchemist(Vivisectionist) 3
Level: 7th

STR: 17 (+1 @ 4th Level)
DEX: 13
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA: 10

Feats:
________________

1st Level: Medium Armor Prof
2nd Talen: Offensive Defense
3rd Level: Power Attack
4th Talen: Furious Focus
5th Level: Toughness
6th Disco: Spontaneous Healing
7th Level: Weapon Focus (Greataxe)

Equipment
________________

Belt of Thunderous Charging 10000 gc
Rino Hide 5165 gc
+ 1 Greataxe 2050 gc


humm interesting. though I don't normally care for builds that relay on that much gear I kind of like this.

Let me see great axe with enlarge and the best is 4d6 + 2d6 from rhino hide. 6d6 + Str and PA and so on. Not bad. (Though atm I am unsure if the belt and impact enchantment can stack so I am leaving it out.)

Large Bastard sword, Impact enchantment, Enlarge person, and vital strike is 8d8 + Str, PA and so on.

The build you suggest would benefit from using a large bastard sword. that would even it out it seems.

The problem is that taking up a belt slot limits the STR you would get from using the normal ability score belt. So without using custom items it falls behind and with using custom items it will be more costly.

Then once one can get improved vital strike yours falls considerably behind. But that's high leave play and your build comes on line earlier assuming standard WBL is used.

So it really comes down to if the game is going to go to high leaves and if someone prefers a more feat heavy build or a coin heavy build.

EDIT- Ohh and your build relies completely on being able to charge. That can be a big problem right there. While the VS build pretty much always works.


It bears saying (and hasn't been mentioned) that the scout archetype is one of the two ways (the other being the shatter defenses and enforcer combo) to reliably get the extra sneak attack damage from sap master and sap adept round after round after round (you attack as if the enemy was flat footed which activates sap master for 2x SA).

So I'm definitely in favor of it.

prototype00


prototype00 wrote:

It bears saying (and hasn't been mentioned) that the scout archetype is one of the two ways (the other being the shatter defenses and enforcer combo) to reliably get the extra sneak attack damage from sap master and sap adept round after round after round (you attack as if the enemy was flat footed which activates sap master for 2x SA).

So I'm definitely in favor of it.

prototype00

This is a very good point and something I had not thought of. Interesting. Thanks I think I might try to flesh out this build.

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