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A.) My witch is awesome, she can magically grow her hair out to 10' and use it as another limb! I know, right? You're all amazed.
So my question is this: This magical, prehensile hair that we just spoke of; cool as a means of distributing touch spells, or no? I tried pulling this on my GM last night against a few toughies, and while he eventually agreed to the usage (had to give him THREE whole bars of my Kit-Kat), he finds it a bit "cheesy" and "munchkin-y".
I dunno, it just seemed obvs to me, but he's the GM.
Thoughts?
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Sounds solid by the rules to me!
You could try to argue that realistically hair is made of dead cells and therefore not an extension of your body to transfer the magic, but that's just splitting hairs.
If he doesn't like it for being 'munchkin-y' compare it to the feat Lunge. Both would allow you to deliver a touch spell at a range of 10feet. Is prehensile hair equivalent to a feat is the main question. I would say probably, yes.
- Gauss
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...but that's just splitting hairs.
I love you.
I assume you mean the hex (supernatural ability).
Prehensile Hair (Su): The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score. Her hair has reach 10 feet, and she can use it as a secondary natural attack that deals 1d3 points of damage (1d2 for a Small witch). Her hair can manipulate objects (but not weapons) as dexterously as a human hand. The hair cannot be sundered or attacked as a separate creature. Pieces cut from the witch’s elongated hair shrink away to nothing. Using her hair does not harm the witch’s head or neck, even if she lifts something heavy with it. The witch can manipulate her hair a number of minutes each day equal to her level; these minutes do not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments. A typical male witch with this hex can also manipulate his beard, moustache, or eyebrows. Source: Ultimate Magic
The hair can certainly make an attack (a secondary natural attack) with a different strength than the character's regular strength. The only question I'd have is if, when making a touch attack instead, is the hair still secondary ?
Yes it is still secondary because primary or secondary is no longer defined as first or second natural attack forms. It is now bestowed upon specific types of attack forms. Hair would fall under 'other' (Bestiary Table 3-1) and thus is always secondary.
IF it included wording about full-attack action making it secondary that would be different. Then an argument could be made for it being primary when used alone. Example: a bite attack is primary when used alone or with other natural attacks but secondary if used during a full attack action made with weapons.
- Gauss
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When using a natural attack in order to discharge a held charge, it is a secondary natural attack.
However, when making the free touch attack or the standard action touch attack in order to discharge, you use the same rules for any other touch attack without a weapon. In this case you would still use your Intelligence modifier as the Strength score for the touch attack. You may discharge a touch attack with any part of your body after-all.
A bit hair raising I know...
If she's smart enough, sure !
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A bit hair raising I know...
You could make these puns from hair to eternity and I'd just be pleased as punch!
I have actually used my hair for melee already, in point of fact. I'm a smarty with with a +4 to my hair strength (and a -1 to my normal strength.)!
Killed a goblin with my hair, once. His buddies all ran away. I know I could imagine a few things creepier than seeing your friend slapped to death by someone's updo, but that's still got to be up there in the top 20 sights that will haunt you to your grave.
Also, for bonus party ickifying, I sometimes use my braids to prepare dinner. :P
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You could make these puns from hair to eternity and I'd just be pleased as punch!
I don't know what you're talking about? I saw a question that needed answered so I came in here to clear the hair!
Also:
+4 hair Gives all new meaning to conditioning...
Snrk! That'd be an awesome advert: New Pantene Conditioner gives you a +4 to hair!
Thanks for all your input (and I have to admit I find it a bit gratifying that there doesn't seem to be a dissenting opinion) on the matter. I just might demand a Kit-Kat refund after all!
I have a quick addendum, if that's okay. I was going to start a new thread but since my question is also about this particular Hex, I thought I'd just ask it hair, er- HERE (Gosh-darnit, GrenMeera! :P ):
*Ahem* Hexes are standard actions to use/active unless stated otherwise, right? The Prehensile Hair Hex states:
The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score.
I figured the hair grew instantly but that it took a standard action to start the hair to do so. Talking with my friend last night about the whole Kit-Kat debacle and the Hair Hex (Presidental elections? I have more important things to do!), and he felt that this was an indication that the Prehensile Hair Hex was an immediate action, so that you could activate the Hex and attack in the same round.
As I said, I'm not convinced that's the case, figuring that the description would be more explicit, calling it a "free", "swift" or "immediate" action in the text.
If this is actually the way it should play out, super neat! But I kinda doubt it.
Thanks again for the help here!
The hair is a supernatural ability. Those are usually standard actions (unless stated otherwise by the ability description) that do not provoke.
If I were the GM, I'd rule that it's a standard action to cause the hair to become active, but it can be used right away that same round (to pick up an item as a move action, for example) and for AoOs (due to the "instantly" in the description), but since the witch's standard action has been already used, not for an attack unless the witch has some way of making an attack as a swift or move action.
Once the hair is active, it remains active for at least a minute (10 rounds) per the description, but there's no additional action cost to keep it active beyond that, only the restriction that activation is measured in minutes, not rounds.
There's no "quick-draw" for hair, it takes a couple seconds to hair-raise.
Now I've got a mental image of the hair wielding a hair-brush and brushing itself.
@SlimGauge Yeah, that's how I figured it, too. Darnit, why am I only correct when it's detrimental? :P
Thanks for your help!
Now I've got a mental image of the hair wielding a hair-brush and brushing itself.
Which would be awesome, but you'd have to do a little bit of switcheroo with the strands holding the brush if you really wanted to get any tangles out. :P
@BBTroll Thanks! That's a good example!
the hex is just like the flight hez, free action to activate, free action to deactivate. or just like an inquisitor's bane as well.
No, the flight hex duplicates spells. The feather fall that the flight hex allows at level 1 is an immediate action just like the spell feather fall. At level 3, she can CAST levitate just like casting the spell (casting time and all). At level 5, she can fly PER THE SPELL.
Yeah, I'm afraid I have to side with SlimGauge on this one. The Flight Hex is the first Hex I took, and I just turned 5th at the end of our last session. I'm so excited to fly around and give folks the evil eye. It's going to be great!
I really love how the flavor of the text indicates that witches grow lighter as they become more powerful. It totally puts me in mind of this:
BEDEMIR: Tell me, what do you do with witches?
VILLAGER: Burn!
CROWD: Burn, burn them up!
BEDEMIR: And what do you burn apart from witches?
VILLAGER #2: More witches!
VILLAGER: Wood!
BEDEMIR: So, why do witches burn?
[pause]
VILLAGER #3: Be... 'cause they're made of wood...?
BEDEMIR: Good!
CROWD: Oh yeah, yeah...
BEDEMIR: So, how do we tell whether she is made of wood?
VILLAGER: Build a bridge out of her.
BEDEMIR: Aah, but can you not also build bridges out of stone?
VILLAGER #2: Oh, yeah.
BEDEMIR: Does wood sink in water?
VILLAGER: No, no.
VILLAGER #2: It floats! It floats!
VILLAGER: Throw her into the pond!
CROWD: The pond!
BEDEMIR: What also floats in water?
VILLAGER: Bread!
VILLAGER #2: Apples!
VILLAGER #3: Very small rocks!
VILLAGER: Cider!
VILLAGER #2: Gra- gravy!
VILLAGER: Cherries!
VILLAGER #2: Mud!
VILLAGER #3: Churches- churches!
VILLAGER #2: Lead- lead!
ARTHUR: A duck.
CROWD: Oooh.
BEDEMIR: Exactly! So, logically...,
VILLAGER: If... she.. weighs the same as a duck, she's made of wood?
BEDEMIR: And therefore-?
VILLAGER: A witch!
CROWD: A witch!
Actually, now that I think I think about it, I guess that was the deal with the ducking stools, huh? If the accused woman floated when the attempted drowning took place, then she was in league with the devil...
Man, good times, good times.
No, the flight hex duplicates spells. The feather fall that the flight hex allows at level 1 is an immediate action just like the spell feather fall. At level 3, she can CAST levitate just like casting the spell (casting time and all). At level 5, she can fly PER THE SPELL.
both have minutes per level durations, broken up as desired, both can be turned on or off with a free action after the first minute, one mimics a spell, the other doesn't, but both are supernatural abilities, and the flight hex offers more perks.
No, the flight hex duplicates spells. The feather fall that the flight hex allows at level 1 is an immediate action just like the spell feather fall. At level 3, she can CAST levitate just like casting the spell (casting time and all). At level 5, she can fly PER THE SPELL.both have minutes per level durations, broken up as desired, both can be turned on or off with a free action after the first minute, one mimics a spell, the other doesn't, but both are supernatural abilities, and the flight hex offers more perks.
There are some definite differences (the Flight Hex, IMO is way more kick-butt :P ), but I think SlimGauge was mostly refering to the time recquired to activate them both being the same.
Design Manager
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It does say the hair instantly grows... Anyways, I would assume that if the hex was activated going into combat or something you'd be just fine for the rest of the fight, right?
** spoiler omitted **
It does say the hair instantly grows... Anyways, I would assume that if the hex was activated going into combat or something you'd be just fine for the rest of the fight, right?
Oh, right, for certain. My hair can now beat people up for 5 whole minutes, if needed!
And yes, the hair instantly grows, but how long does it take to hit the point where it instantly grows? Does it grow the second I think of it growing, or does it instantly grow after the standard action of activating the hex?
It boils down to if it activates as a standard action, or as a quicker action (Swift, immediate, free, cheater-pants). My thoughts are that if it doesn't explicitly state that it isn't a standard action, I kind of assume that it is, just because of the original wording of the Hex description.
EDIT: Hee. I typed "teh".
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Design Manager
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I was thinking about this... Since it's a standard action to cast the spell (and you normally get the free touch attempt to deliver said spell) you probably couldn't do it same round, but if you held the charge and made your trip attempt it would go off just fine... At least that's how I'm understanding it.
I am wondering, as I was discussing this thread with a friend, could you deliver these touch attack spells say as part of a trip action? Because techincally you are touching them with your hair which we established can deliver touch attacks. Maybe I am just going crazy though in thinking this.
I've never even considered this. Huh.
Can you use a "normal" trip attack in conjunction with a held charge for a touch spell?
I feel like such a noob! :P
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Design Manager
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I am wondering, as I was discussing this thread with a friend, could you deliver these touch attack spells say as part of a trip action? Because techincally you are touching them with your hair which we established can deliver touch attacks. Maybe I am just going crazy though in thinking this.I've never even considered this. Huh.
Can you use a "normal" trip attack in conjunction with a held charge for a touch spell?
I feel like such a noob! :P
Normally you wouldn't be tripping with a part of your body, unless you're a monk. Could a monk/witch tripping with an unarmed strike normally deliver her touch spell this way? I know they could deliver it by making an unarmed strike as part of a standard or full attack.
Normally you wouldn't be tripping with a part of your body, unless you're a monk. Could a monk/witch tripping with an unarmed strike normally deliver her touch spell this way? I know they could deliver it by making an unarmed strike as part of a standard or full attack.
Y'know, after a little looking around, I think it'd be legal:
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge. [Emphasis mine.]
Interesting.
Excuse me for a minute while I cackle maddly to myself.
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I think it's definitely very interesting. Regarding holding a charged spell, because it just says "discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell" If you cast a quickened version of a spell and then hold it charged that same round, so quicken shocking grasp to a swift action, can you then expend when you make a standard action trip attempt?
I am spit ballin' on this trying to figure out in what ways this all works.
I'd say this is just the equivalent of a monstrous caster putting a touch spell on their bite / horns.
I want to make sure everyone realizes that as a secondary attack, it suffers -5 to hit and only does half strength damage.
Oh, pooh! You're no fun!
But thank you for the reminder. *Sigh*. :(
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I want to make sure everyone realizes that as a secondary attack, it suffers -5 to hit and only does half strength damage.
True...but if it is your only attack in the round, then it becomes a primary attack.
I wish you could have seen the look on my GMs face the first time I attacked with my hair. She's a Level 1/1 WItch/Rogue and got a flanking attack with Frostbite on a held charge and did 3d6+4 nonlethal.
Edit: Sorry 2d6 nonlethal + 1d3+4 normal
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I want to make sure everyone realizes that as a secondary attack, it suffers -5 to hit and only does half strength damage.True...but if it is your only attack in the round, then it becomes a primary attack.
I'm a little confused about whether or not that's really true.
Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature's description.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do. See the natural attacks by size table for typical damage values for natural attacks by creature size.
Format: bite +5 (1d6+1), 2 claws +5 (1d4+2), 4 tentacles +0 (1d4+1); Location: Melee and Ranged.
Natural Invisibility (Ex or Su) This ability is constant—the creature remains invisible at all times, even when attacking. As this ability is inherent, it is not subject to the invisibility purge spell.
Format: natural invisibility; Location: Defensive Abilities.
Negative Energy Affinity (Ex) The creature alive, but reacts to positive and negative energy as if it were undead—positive energy harms it, negative energy heals it.
Format: negative energy affinity; Location: Defensive Abilities.
Since it's a PC character, do they ever meet the requisite of not having any other attacks? Don't they always have the option of unarmed strikes? Does the specific rule of the hair being treated as a secondary natural weapon override the general rules about Natural Attacks? Or are they complimentary?
Now I want to see Pippi Longstockings as a Witch/Ranger dual wielding with her braids....
pH unbalanced: A secondary attack that is a secondary attack by virtue of it's attack type (see Bestiary 1 page 302 table 3-1) never becomes primary attacks when used as a lone attack. Pathfinder rewrote the rules on what defines a primary or secondary attack.
On the other hand, if a primary natural attack is used in concert with iterative attacks it becomes a secondary natural attack.
Types of secondary attacks: Hoof, Tentacle, Wing, Pincers, Tail Slap, and the category 'Other'.
Witch hair is a secondary natural weapon by type, not due to being used in a full attack.
Unfortunately, up to here things are clear. Afterwards, they become confusing because there is the line that states a creature with only one natural attack (even a secondary attack) uses it's full BAB and 1.5x strength damage. However, I believe that any time a special ability calls out an attack as being secondary (type, not due to full attack) it stays secondary even if it is the only natural attack. Specific vs General.
- Gauss
Absolutely loving this thread!
I have a 'naga' race 'group' in my campaign, more of a number of 'sub-races' than a central race, including a group of 'hair' gifted. This group tend to have legs and includes the several forms of Medusa and about a dozen others. One was based off the Star Wars dancer that got fed to the Rancor in Jabba's palace. They are not currently 'onstage', but I will have to include a witch or three in their next appearance!
Has your DM ever heard of a familiar? If he has a problem with "Prehensile Hair," he's going to have to object to familiars as well.
A psuedodragon has 5 foot reach with its sting attack, thus should be able to stay out of melee range while delivering touch attacks for its master.
Imps and quasits can become invisible, allowing them to maneuver the battlefield virtually uncontested, delivering touch attacks against unwary foes.
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pH unbalanced: A secondary attack that is a secondary attack by virtue of it's attack type (see Bestiary 1 page 302 table 3-1) never becomes primary attacks when used as a lone attack. Pathfinder rewrote the rules on what defines a primary or secondary attack.
On the other hand, if a primary natural attack is used in concert with iterative attacks it becomes a secondary natural attack.
Types of secondary attacks: Hoof, Tentacle, Wing, Pincers, Tail Slap, and the category 'Other'.
Witch hair is a secondary natural weapon by type, not due to being used in a full attack.
Unfortunately, up to here things are clear. Afterwards, they become confusing because there is the line that states a creature with only one natural attack (even a secondary attack) uses it's full BAB and 1.5x strength damage. However, I believe that any time a special ability calls out an attack as being secondary (type, not due to full attack) it stays secondary even if it is the only natural attack. Specific vs General.
- Gauss
Here's a link to a thread where the devs weigh in on the issue (SKR, about a third of the way down the page.). If you only have one Secondary Natural attack, it is treated as primary.
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If you deliver an evil spell that way, does that mean you are having a bad hair day?
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Sounds solid by the rules to me!
You could try to argue that realistically hair is made of dead cells and therefore not an extension of your body to transfer the magic, but that's just splitting hairs.
Actually, all the outer layer skin-cells of your hand are dead cells too, so that argument doesn't really hold up either....
Sorry for more hair splitting ;)| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Now I want to see Pippi Longstockings as a Witch/Ranger dual wielding with her braids....
Widjit, stay out of my diary! :P
This post kinda makes me a little sad that a witch's hair can't wield weapons.
FIGHTER: What the heck? Are you seriously shooting arrows with your hair?
WITCH: Duh! Don't tell me you've never heard of hair bows before.
Actually, all the outer layer skin-cells of your hand are dead cells too, so that argument doesn't really hold up either....
I guess we could get really nit-picky and state that technically we never really "touch" anything. :P
Okay... So according to the SKR post that pH unbalanced (thank you!) linked to, my witch, Magrat, lacking any other natural attacks besides her hair, would attack at a +6 and deal 1d3+6 dmg. That's kinda bad-A. Does this seem like a fair interpretation of the rules?
There are more useful things that my witch could do most times than try to replace our sluggers with her hair-fu, but it still gives me some fun and potentially surprising options in the event that the baddies try to close on her.
Some other thoughts:
Tripping with hair for my 5th level witch with an 18 INT would happen at a CM bonus of +6 if she were using her hair, right? (base attack +2 and hair strength of +4)
Would I adjust my CMD when my hair is active? My character's STR would still be at a -1, but I'd have 10' of hair being all 18 strength-y under my command and connected to my body. My initial thought would be I would not adjust the score, but it'd be nice to have a CMD above a stupid 11 for a few minutes. :P
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Some other thoughts:
Tripping with hair for my 5th level witch with an 18 INT would happen at a CM bonus of +6 if she were using her hair, right? (base attack +2 and hair strength of +4)
Would I adjust my CMD when my hair is active? My character's STR would still be at a -1, but I'd have 10' of hair being all 18 strength-y under my command and connected to my body. My initial thought would be I would not adjust the score, but it'd be nice to have a CMD above a stupid 11 for a few minutes. :P
Yes, that's how Trip would work. I've also used my hair to Disarm and I'm strongly considering taking the Combat Swipe Rogue's Talent just so that I can pick pockets with my hair during combat.
As for using Int for your CMD while the Hex is active -- I'd say that RAW no, but that there are situations where it would probably be reasonable and you might be able to talk your GM into it. Like resisting a grapple, for instance, or maybe even using your hair like a limb to keep you from Tripping. If you describe it right, it might make sense.