Touch spells delivered by hair!


Rules Questions

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This is one hairy thread.


pH unblanaced, thanks for the link. At least now we have an intent statement that all abilities that grant secondary natural attacks (and some that are primary and yet are still listed as -5 when making a full attack) are actually intended to work as normal for the rules regarding natural attacks.

- Gauss


Pippi wrote:
he finds it a bit "cheesy" and "munchkin-y".

I thought touch spells were the only reason for this ability, and that looking creepy was just a bonus perk to it.


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to be clear, when using a natural attack to deliver a touch spell, you can also do damage, but doing so requires targetting NORMAL AC, and the entire touch effect doesn't discharge unless you hit that full AC (albeit you can continue to hold the charge and try again later). if you are targetting touch AC, natural attack damage doesn't also apply. i also believe that when using the 'free touch attack' as part of a spell, that you must indeed be making JUST a touch attack, and can't use the natural attack/UAS option for additional damage.

it's plausible that when using hair (or grippli tongues, etc) to deliver a touch spell, that you MUST use it as a natural attack targetting normal AC, and thus can't do this as part of the casting of a spell, but only via the holding a charge rules. on the other hand, i can see that touch attacks can be made using your reach period... i can't really say unless paizo clarifies it.

i just visualized a Coup de Grace via Hair...


pH unbalanced wrote:


Yes, that's how Trip would work. I've also used my hair to Disarm and I'm strongly considering taking the Combat Swipe Rogue's Talent just so that I can pick pockets with my hair during combat.

That would be cool. My witch is straight up witchy, though, with a barely above avg. Dex. Stop making me jealous! :P

pH unbalanced wrote:


As for using Int for your CMD while the Hex is active -- I'd say that RAW no, but that there are situations where it would probably be reasonable and you might be able to talk your GM into it. Like resisting a grapple, for instance, or maybe even using your hair like a limb to keep you from Tripping. If you describe it right, it might make sense.

I can think of a million ways in which it'd make sense to me. Wrasslin' 10 feet of hair that possesses what amounts to an 18 strength? Release the kraken!

As far as bracing or helping with tripping, I've used my hair as a comfy seat when I wished to sit and chat with a man trapped in quicksand, and didn't want to get my skirts all yucky.

But convincing my GM? In the past he's been very good at considered stuff a little outside of RAW, so his balking at the "touch spell through hair" took me by surprise, a bit. I dunno if he was just messing with me, or if he just really wanted 3/4 of my Kit-Kat...

I guess we'll see? I think it's a fun idea. :P

@Geistlinger :P

@Archamus I had it the other way around. Creepy was the best thing about it, and touch spells were just icing on the cake!

@Quandary Good points to remember! Thank you. :)

And with a folicle based coup de grace, there's a "hair today, gone tomorrow" joke in there somewhere, but someone more clever than I would have to set it up.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Pippi wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:


Yes, that's how Trip would work. I've also used my hair to Disarm and I'm strongly considering taking the Combat Swipe Rogue's Talent just so that I can pick pockets with my hair during combat.
That would be cool. My witch is straight up witchy, though, with a barely above avg. Dex. Stop making me jealous! :P

Yeah, Viriel is a Rogue/WItch working towards going into Arcane Trickster, and the farther I go down that path, the cooler it ends up looking. But she ends up being more of a magically-enhanced Rogue than a true Witch. It also means that she's only grabbing Hexes that don't require DCs, because she's not going to end up with enough Witch levels for them to be effective later -- so she gets to have all the cool situational Hexes that most people never take.

(I should point out, though, that it doesn't work RAW because WItches can't be Arcane Tricksters because they don't have the Ghost Hand cantrip on their spell list for some reason. My GM is allowing me to get around that by taking the Varisian Tattoo (Transmutation) feat which gives you Ghost Hand as a Spell-Like Ability. That's still not RAW, but it was close enough for him.)

If I had it to do over again, I'd probably make her a White-Haired Witch/Ninja with one level in a casting class with Ghost Hand (maybe Bard?) and then go into Arcane Trickster from there


yeah, i would definitely not use INT for CMD instead of STR.
clearly, that is not RAW,
but if they are not targetting YOUR HAIR in any way, then there is no reason to invoke INT even on some flavor/intent basis.
if they are tripping you (your legs), the hair isn't in play.
if they are grapplling you (grabbing your body/arms) or pinning you, they can avoid the hair.
if they are sundering the wand in your hand, they can avoid the hair.
sure, you can say 'oh, buy my hair would move in the way',
but that can go for many other things: if somebody tries Knockback Bullrushing a Rust Monster with their metal sword, the same 'hair logic' would let you say 'well, you hit their Rust Mouth, and your sword is disentigrated'. But that's not RAW for rust monster, and neither for Hair Witches.
further, there is a non-Core "Guided' weapon property letting you use WIS for attacks.
that doesn't affect CMD either, not even just for that weapon (i.e. disarm/sunder).

letting white hair witches min-max one single stat for casting, natural attacks, AND CMD is kind of going too far.


It's not cheesy.

It's the whole point.

Dark Archive

pH unbalanced wrote:
Pippi wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:


Yes, that's how Trip would work. I've also used my hair to Disarm and I'm strongly considering taking the Combat Swipe Rogue's Talent just so that I can pick pockets with my hair during combat.
That would be cool. My witch is straight up witchy, though, with a barely above avg. Dex. Stop making me jealous! :P

Yeah, Viriel is a Rogue/WItch working towards going into Arcane Trickster, and the farther I go down that path, the cooler it ends up looking. But she ends up being more of a magically-enhanced Rogue than a true Witch. It also means that she's only grabbing Hexes that don't require DCs, because she's not going to end up with enough Witch levels for them to be effective later -- so she gets to have all the cool situational Hexes that most people never take.

(I should point out, though, that it doesn't work RAW because WItches can't be Arcane Tricksters because they don't have the Ghost Hand cantrip on their spell list for some reason. My GM is allowing me to get around that by taking the Varisian Tattoo (Transmutation) feat which gives you Ghost Hand as a Spell-Like Ability. That's still not RAW, but it was close enough for him.)

If I had it to do over again, I'd probably make her a White-Haired Witch/Ninja with one level in a casting class with Ghost Hand (maybe Bard?) and then go into Arcane Trickster from there

I would have just taken the two world magic trait and added that cantrip to my spell list. Much cheaper then burning a feat on something you never use.

As for the WhW/Ninja.. You'd be giving up ALL your hexes. Forever. Seems to expensive to me.


Quandary wrote:
letting white hair witches min-max one single stat for casting, natural attacks, AND CMD is kind of going too far.

Hmmm... I don't have the Dragon Empires Primer (I think that's where the build is from?), so I'm afraid I'm really not too familiar with the White-Haired Witch Archetype. :(

If she can use her hair for everything and all of the days, then I can see how that might very well be a problematic interpretation.

And I think I get what you're saying Quandary, but I respectfully disagree with a few of your points:

Quandary wrote:

but if they are not targetting YOUR HAIR in any way, then there is no reason to invoke INT even on some flavor/intent basis.

if they are tripping you (your legs), the hair isn't in play.

While it's true that they wouldn't be targeting my hair in this instance, I do rather think that 10 feet of hair, treated as an additional limb with Str corresponding to my Int would play some factor on whether or not I fell to the ground. Kind of like the +4 vs. tripping a quadruped gains? Maybe a +3, as the hair essentially renders me a tripod, in a way? Definitely not RAW but not too far away from a reasonable expectation?

Quandary wrote:
if they are grapplling you (grabbing your body/arms) or pinning you, they can avoid the hair.

Here's where I disagree most firmly. If I had prehensile hair, and 10 feet of it at that, and 10' feet of it that didn't hurt my neck or head to use, and 10' that was as strong as I was smart, you'd better believe it'd get in the way of someone grappling me! :)

It's connected to my person, and more than likely hanging down around my person, so I'd have to imagine it'd get some say as to somebody grabbing my person.

I don't have as strong a case for disarm, or sunder (as a matter of fact, I wouldn't even really argue for those), but I do think that, at least in the case of someone tripping or grabbing me, a good argument could be made for the hair giving at least some sort of circumstantial bonus. :)

Quandary wrote:
if somebody tries Knockback Bullrushing a Rust Monster with their metal sword, the same 'hair logic' would let you say 'well, you hit their Rust Mouth, and your sword is disentigrated'. But that's not RAW for rust monster, and neither for Hair Witches.

I don't see those two things as really that analogous. If the rust monster had a 10' long, prehensile "Rust Mouth", it might gain an AoO? But comparing a mouth to 3.3 yards of luxurious, mobile hair is just crazy talk! ;)

Regardless, I wouldn't cry if my GM said no to any of the above, as you pointed out, it's definitely not RAW. But I don't think the argument for a bonus of some sort would be entirely out of the question, in some cases?

Either way it's okay! Having crazy-long, creepy, moving hair is its own reward! :P


Just to add some color to this discussion:

Milia Rage

Sindel

Kumadori

Medusalith Amaquelin Boltagon (Gotta' love that name, particularly the "Boltagon" part due to Blackagar Boltagon being Black Bolt's real name)

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Pippi wrote:

Hmmm... I don't have the Dragon Empires Primer (I think that's where the build is from?), so I'm afraid I'm really not too familiar with the White Haired Witch Archetype. :(

The White-haired Witch actually gives up all of her hexes, so it's not as extreme as it may sound.


@GrenMeera: And this.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:
Pippi wrote:
That would be cool. My witch is straight up witchy, though, with a barely above avg. Dex. Stop making me jealous! :P

Yeah, Viriel is a Rogue/WItch working towards going into Arcane Trickster, and the farther I go down that path, the cooler it ends up looking. But she ends up being more of a magically-enhanced Rogue than a true Witch. It also means that she's only grabbing Hexes that don't require DCs, because she's not going to end up with enough Witch levels for them to be effective later -- so she gets to have all the cool situational Hexes that most people never take.

(I should point out, though, that it doesn't work RAW because WItches can't be Arcane Tricksters because they don't have the Ghost Hand cantrip on their spell list for some reason. My GM is allowing me to get around that by taking the Varisian Tattoo (Transmutation) feat which gives you Ghost Hand as a Spell-Like Ability. That's still not RAW, but it was close enough for him.)

If I had it to do over again, I'd probably make her a White-Haired Witch/Ninja with one level in a casting class with Ghost Hand (maybe Bard?) and then go into Arcane Trickster from there

I would have just taken the two world magic trait and added that cantrip to my spell list. Much cheaper then burning a feat on something you never use.

As for the WhW/Ninja.. You'd be giving up ALL your hexes. Forever. Seems to expensive to me.

If I'd noticed that Ghost Hand wasn't on the spell list when I created the character, rather than at level 2, I might have done that. :) However, Varisian Tattoo also gives +1 to my CL with Transmutation spells, so it's actually a useful Feat anyway.

As for giving up all my Hexes for White-Haired Witch, that actually wouldn't be a problem for this build. With only 4-5 levels in Witch, I'd only be getting 2-3 Hexes total anyway, and one of those would have been Prehensile Hair, which the Archetype takes care of. So it's not really that bad a trade.

The whole problem with going into a Prestige Class as a Witch is that it advances your spellcasting but not your Hexes, so they quickly become useless. So if you can get something useful for those hexes, it's not a bad trade. WHW is a pretty lousy archetype for a straight Witch, but I think it makes a lot of sense if you want to Multiclass/Prestige Class with a Witch.

@Pippi: Here's the info on the White-Haired WItch

Paizo Employee Design Manager

WhW/Ninja is such a fun combo... You can really even go striaght WhW if you build appropriately for it, although that low BAB progression is hard to get around for a character whose class abilities revolve around hair-to-hand combat for the first several levels.

Dark Archive

Ssalarn wrote:
WhW/Ninja is such a fun combo... You can really even go striaght WhW if you build appropriately for it, although that low BAB progression is hard to get around for a character whose class abilities revolve around hair-to-hand combat for the first several levels.

Don't forget with that archetype you are still using your strength bonus on your to-hit chance. So a poor bab class that dumps strength. Unless you do nothing but combat maneuvers all day you won't be hitting anything most of the time.

(This archetype only lets you use your Int for CMB and bonus damage, everything else still defaults off your strength).
As I've always said... horrible archetype for witches, should have been a monk archetype.

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
WhW/Ninja is such a fun combo... You can really even go striaght WhW if you build appropriately for it, although that low BAB progression is hard to get around for a character whose class abilities revolve around hair-to-hand combat for the first several levels.

Don't forget with that archetype you are still using your strength bonus on your to-hit chance. So a poor bab class that dumps strength. Unless you do nothing but combat maneuvers all day you won't be hitting anything most of the time.

(This archetype only lets you use your Int for CMB and bonus damage, everything else still defaults off your strength).
As I've always said... horrible archetype for witches, should have been a monk archetype.

That's a really good point. One way around it is that with a WHW/Ninja, you'd probably have a really nice Dex, so Weapon Finesse (either as a feat or a Ninja trick) can solve that problem.


I'm curious as to why people don't think you would use INT for the CMB. Weapon Finesse allows one to use dex instead of Str for finessable weapons and I think this would be similar.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Hawktitan wrote:
I'm curious as to why people don't think you would use INT for the CMB. Weapon Finesse allows one to use dex instead of Str for finessable weapons and I think this would be similar.

I don't think anyone was questioning it's use for CMB, I believe it was CMD that someone was asking about and being told it wouldn't work.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

wow, i just noticed another feature of the hair:

Quote:
When a white-haired witch grapples a foe in this way, she does not gain the grappled condition.

that's kraken style awesome!, i.e. the exact same thing as the -20 grab penalty but without the penalty.

that means you can use it to grab them, they are moved adjacent to you,
and you can subsequently move away with your move action/ 5' step... (since you're not grappled)
leaving them not threatening you, and unable to attack you.
(i'm not sure if the grapple rules intend them to always be able to try to escape/reverse the grapple whether or not they threaten you, but either way, them not being able to attack you normally is a huge deal!)

that's such a big benefit that in my games i've decide to limit it to the target remaining within your reach for grapple (since otherwise it doesnt' make sense for the grapple to continue, same as if the grappler teleported to the other side of a football stadium), but with the hair's increasing reach, that still allows plenty of room!

this is hugely useful for witch/ninja combos, with the reach they gain, they can grab (and move adjacent to them) any target they want to as part of a hair attack on top of a full attack, then use all their iterative attacks loaded with Sneak Attack. (ideally moving the target to an adjacent square that is flanked by another ally) that lets them more consistently get full attack, vs. having to move around to get single sneak attacks. of course, they need to succeed on the Grapple CMB to do that, but if they don't, they could always throw a bunch of daggers/shuriken/etc as a full attack also.

-------------------

i also noticed this part:

Quote:
Pull (Ex): At 6th level, a white-haired witch who successfully strikes a foe with her hair can attempt a combat maneuver check to pull the creature 5 feet closer to her as a swift action*.

it seems to pretty much be superfluous given you already have grab from level 1, and a succesful grapple check moves the target adjacent to you (whether you want to or not).

i will hit FAQ on that for errata, it seems like something has to go there, either Pull, or hair should be given an exception that says the target isn't moved towards you like every other grapple check.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Quandary wrote:

wow, i just noticed another feature of the hair:

Quote:
When a white-haired witch grapples a foe in this way, she does not gain the grappled condition.

that's kraken style awesome!, i.e. the exact same thing as the -20 grab penalty but without the penalty. that means you can use it to grab them, they are moved adjacent to you, and you can subsequently move away with your move action/ 5' step... leaving them not threatening you, and unable to attack you.

(i'm not sure if the grapple rules intend them to always be able to try to escape/reverse the grapple whether or not they threaten you, but either way, them not being able to attack you normally is a huge deal!)
that's such a big benefit that i've decide to limit it to you remaining within your reach for grapple (since otherwise it doesnt' make sense for the grapple to continue), but with the hair's increasing reach, that still allows plenty of room!

-------------------

i also noticed this part:

Quote:
Pull (Ex): At 6th level, a white-haired witch who successfully strikes a foe with her hair can attempt a combat maneuver check to pull the creature 5 feet closer to her as a swift action*.

it seems to pretty much be superfluous given you already have grab from level 1, and a succesful grapple check moves the target adjacent to you (whether you want to or not).

i will hit FAQ on that for errata, it seems like something has to go there, either Pull, or hair should be given an exception that says the target isn't moved towards you like every other grapple check.

Hmmm, good catch. Some clarification on that would be nice.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

well, i guess per RAW the Pull ability could do SOMETHING when you decide NOT to grab/grapple the target at all, you could still Pull them anyways. but that seems really wierd, especially since you aren't grappled yourself, you don't have much incentive NOT to grab them.

also, i noticed both Trip and Pull just say you can do said Maneuvers against the target, but per RAW they aren't using your INT bonus like Grab does for CMB. i can't really say what the intent is there, but it seemed off to me.

Dark Archive

You are misinterpreting the Pull ability, it's actually a nice extra once you read it correctly. It's not a good enough reason to go more then 2 levels into this archetype but it's nice to have.

Pull wrote:


Pull (Ex): At 6th level, a white-haired witch who successfully strikes a foe with her hair can attempt a combat maneuver check to pull the creature 5 feet closer to her as a swift action*.

Normally you hit a foe with the hair and get a free attempt to grapple the target and if you succeed you move him adjacent. At 6th level when you get pull and attempt to grapple and fail you burn a swift action for pull and make another combat maneuver and if that one succeeds you yank the guy closer to you. Pull just gives you a second bite at the apple if your first (and only since it's a natural attack so you only get one shot) grapple check fails.

@quandry, Yup, one of the MANY reasons I NEVER recommend anyone do more then dip into this archetype.


pH unbalanced wrote:
@Pippi: Here's the info on the White-Haired WItch

Ta, pH!

That's an interesting archetype, perfect for a baddie in a Tian Xia setting. Very Chinese Ghost Story/Bride with White Hair. :)

I'm really happy with my witch just being a Witch so far (I rarely play a caster, so it's kind of fun to walk around being all arcane for a change), but I think I might look into this build with the next character I make.

To add to the flavor of the thread (along with GrenMeera and Detect Magic) TV Tropes has a whole page devoted to the Prehensile Hair character.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
You are misinterpreting the Pull ability, it's actually a nice extra once you read it correctly. It's not a good enough reason to go more then 2 levels into this archetype but it's nice to have...

Ah, OK, that's not that dissimilar to how I read it, but it's a bit better of a scenario.

Also to note: White Hair doesn't actually give you Grab per se (although it mostly works like it), so you aren't gaining the +4 bonus to CMB that Grab normally grants.
Of course, Pull/Trip not benefitting from INT probably does mean that they will be less effective, but another attack roll is another attack roll, so always useful if the first missed somehow. I'm still not certain if that's intended, but we will see if FAQ/Errata comes out for that.

Liberty's Edge

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My daughter just started playing a witch, and she just LOVES her hair :D

Liberty's Edge

And I think that my psychotic CN barbarian (Demon Focker) who has a wild head-dress, may have to take a level of witch, just to make him look that much more outlandish. lol


Dudeacles wrote:
And I think that my psychotic CN barbarian (Demon Focker) who has a wild head-dress, may have to take a level of witch, just to make him look that much more outlandish. lol

That would be rather intimidating, in a very Kublai Kahn way: "And all who heard should see them there, And all should cry, Beware! Beware! His flashing eyes, his floating hair!"

It's kinda sad, though, that unless your psychotic barbarian is also pretty smart, that your hair won't really be as effective as the rest of your arsenal.

Still, it'd be verah cool looking. =)

Liberty's Edge

He's got a 12 Int (genius in the land of barbarians lol).

He could certainly toss a weapon as a primary attack, followed by a witch hair trip of some sort - :D

But a better bet, I suppose, might be for that intelligent fighter archtype :-)

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