Lay on hands on self twice per round?


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
SRD wrote:
Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it is a swift action.

Can a paladin use LoH twice per round to heal himself? Once as a swift and once as a standard action or does the "swift action on self" override the normal use making it impossible to use it twice on himself because you can't take two swift actions?

As written it sounds as if the pala can heal himself once and someone else once but not himself twice. Can this be RAI?


I'd allow it. You have the actions for it and the uses per day for it. There isn't anything stopping you, arbitrary or otherwise.


I believe the only restriction on multiple swift actions in a round is only that you cannot cast multiple quickened spells in a round.
I could be wrong, or working from an old edition's rules, but you can generally downgrade an action to the next lower type.

Standard
Move
Swift

Playing a paladin in the past, I've found no issue with being able to LoH myself, Smite Evil, then take a single attack, as long as I started the round next to my target.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

You are actually working from 4E rules there. By Pathfinder and 3E rules, you only get one swift action per round and cannot "downgrade" a standard action to a swift action. You can downgrade a standard action to a second move action, but that is as far as it goes.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

most of my gm's and myself allow the downgrade as well.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

In this case, it is just a matter of using both "lay on hands - self" (as swift action) and "lay on hands (other)" on yourself (as a standard action). The rule about not being able to downgrade a standard action to a swift action would apply if the action in question has no standard or move action form and there is reason to believe that it should only be allowed once per turn.

Shadow Lodge

yeah, I don't think this is about downgrading but whether or not you can use the lay of hands (other) on yourself. I would argue that you can. You can use cure light wound on yourself even though it is touch. I think the swift is just a bonus because you don't need to reach out to someone else. It doesn't preclude using the standard to heal yourself.

Dark Archive

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I think, according to RAW, you cannot use your move or standard actions to perform an extra swift action. Outside of PFS, I always rule you can use a standard action to perform any move or swift action, not just another move.

In the specific case of a paladin performing Lay on Hands, I'd rule that he can target himself with the standard action use in addition to the swift action use. I see no reason why, if he could heal himself and also heal another in the same turn, he could not heal himself twice. Hell, after level 4, he could even spend an additional use of lay on hands (for a total of 3) to heal himself once, and then channel to heal everybody including himself.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

heheh , i saw a 4th level paladin do that in pfs the other night. construct had him laid out, and he'd just recovered to conscious. he healed himself as a swift, and channeled to heal the group as a standard, from the floor. its worth it sometimes. =)

Grand Lodge

well I had a paladin do this in my Carrion Crown campaign and assumed he had read the rules. Upon reading the rules, no you can't.

PRD wrote:
Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it is a swift action.

is the paladin targeting himself? If so it is a swift action. You only get one swift action per round. So he cannot target himself a second time. He CAN target himself and someone else, but not himself twice.


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Lay On Hands (Su): "Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it is a swift action."

Note that it doesn't say "unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it can be used as a swift action" or anything that denotes choice.

A) Ability is a standard action, unless
B) Targeting self is a swift action

That doesn't leave room to target yourself as a standard action.

I would probably house-rule otherwise, though, and give them the option of which action to use when targeting themselves.


Wow first let me weigh in the TWO LOH in one round is WAY OP. Should only be able to do yourself (as a move action) another (as a standard action) or a channel (as a standard action)

Secondly, the RAW apparently (I'll take everyone's word for it) allows you to swift heal yourself, but there is nothing keeping you from channeling to heal others which would also heal yourself.

Also where in the rules does it call out you can't use a standard as a swift (sacrificing a more complicated move for a simpler one)?


Pendagast wrote:
Should only be able to do yourself (as a move action) another (as a standard action) or a channel (as a standard action)

You can't LoH as a move action. Standard (other) or Swift (self).

Swift LoH self and Standard Channel is fine.

Pendagast wrote:
Secondly, the RAW apparently (I'll take everyone's word for it) allows you to swift heal yourself

No need to take our word for it. The rules are all online for free at the PRD. Lay On Hands (Su)

Pendagast wrote:
Also where in the rules does it call out you can't use a standard as a swift (sacrificing a more complicated move for a simpler one)?

Swift Action: "You can perform only a single swift action per turn."

Also, there's no rule at all that you can swap out actions, other than a specific exception that lets you use your standard action to get another move action.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

you count as your own ally, so in the time/action you could use a standard action to touch someone else, you can touch yourself :9


Seraphimpunk wrote:
you count as your own ally, so in the time/action you could use a standard action to touch someone else, you can touch yourself :9

If only it actually said that.

"Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it is a swift action."

Are you targeting yourself? Then it's a swift action.


That's reading into the rules and assuming RAI.

you can swap a standard to get an additional move or a full to do a move and a standard, why not a standard to downgrade to a swift.

RAW isn't put there to stop you from doing less than you could, it's there to call out there is only one swift action, one move action and one standard action, not that we are limiting you to sacrificing higher more complicated actions for more lesser action.

And above, I was stating that allowing LOH self as a swift is OP. It SHOULD be a Move action.


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Pendagast wrote:
That's reading into the rules and assuming RAI.

Well, yeah. The only sane assumption is that the rules mean what they say. If you're defaulting to the intent being something other than what the rules say, then the whole book is worthless.

Pendagast wrote:
you can swap a standard to get an additional move or a full to do a move and a standard, why not a standard to downgrade to a swift.

Action Types: "In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action."

You can take a move in place of a standard, because the rules say so.

You don't 'swap' a full in order to move and standard, you just get to choose one or the other. Because the rules say so.

Pendagast wrote:
And above, I was stating that allowing LOH self as a swift is OP. It SHOULD be a Move action.

That should probably be addressed in the house rules forum. And even if using LoH on yourself was a move action, that would enable a paladin to LoH himself twice in one round, which she currently can't do.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

There is absolutely nothing in the rules that allows action swapping, other than a specific exception that says you can downgrade a standard to a move. You never "downgrade" a Full-round Action, you choose whether or not to take one on your turn. This is a specific intent. Allowing multiple swift actions in a turn can lead to a number of issues in game (a wizard spending his move to take a swift and fire off two quickened fireballs and a standard action spell in a single turn for instance) and many class features are balanced to this expectation. Also note that in the description for Swift action it states that it takes a small amount of time but a larger expenditure of energy, thus the 1/ round limitation. If you allow free action swapping, a magus could use Spellstrike 3 times in a single round, a potentially devastating combo, and that's just one basic example.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

yeah the downgrading action is a 4th ed bleed over. still, not a bad bleed. i leave it unbandaged, it hasn't gotten infected yet.

i'd house rule it possible to standard action heal yourself.
but agreed, RAW paladin can only heal himself once per round with lay on hands as a swift.
I was just being cheeky b/c i'm bored.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Seraphimpunk wrote:

yeah the downgrading action is a 4th ed bleed over. still, not a bad bleed. i leave it unbandaged, it hasn't gotten infected yet.

i'd house rule it possible to standard action heal yourself.
but agreed, RAW paladin can only heal himself once per round with lay on hands as a swift.
I was just being cheeky b/c i'm bored.

It works all right in 4th, but in PF the Swift actions are often much more potent then 4E's minor actions. None of the Minor actions you can take in 4th by trading out your move or standard are comparable to a regular standard action like the swift actions in PF are.


Ssalarn wrote:
If you allow free action swapping, a magus could use Spellstrike 3 times in a single round, a potentially devastating combo, and that's just one basic example.

Spellstrike does not use an action.

If a magus can make three attacks on his turn, and he's got three touches from a spell, he can use Spellstrike all three times.

Shadow Lodge

Ssalarn wrote:
You never "downgrade" a Full-round Action, you choose whether or not to take one on your turn.

You can take a standard and a swift and skip your move, which is effectively the same as downgrading a full-round action to a Standard.

Ssalarn wrote:
Allowing multiple swift actions in a turn can lead to a number of issues in game (a wizard spending his move to take a swift and fire off to quickened fireballs and standard action spell in a single turn for instance)

No, there's a specific rule saying that you can't cast two quickened spells per round:

Casting a Quickened Spell wrote:
You can cast a quickened spell (see the Quicken Spell metamagic feat), or any spell whose casting time is designated as a free or swift action, as a swift action. Only one such spell can be cast in any round, and such spells don't count toward your normal limit of one spell per round.

A bit odd to specify that if it wasn't possible to have two swift actions in a round. EDIT: Though I agree that the RAW does not appear to permit extra swifts normally, and this may be included to prevent abuse in case a future ability gives extra swift actions.

Ssalarn wrote:
and many class features are balanced to this expectation.

I'm not a game balance expert, but I don't see a problem. It would allow characters with swift-action buffs (combat styles, magus arcane pool, inquisitor judgment or bane) to activate an extra buff or two per round, at the cost of either sacrificing a move or sacrificing your full attack. Might make certain builds a little more effective, but I see this as letting a character charge their laser in one concentrated burst rather than gradually over two or three rounds.

Ssalarn wrote:
If you allow free action swapping, a magus could use Spellstrike 3 times in a single round, a potentially devastating combo, and that's just one basic example.

First, I don't know what you mean by free action swapping, since within reasonable limits you can take as many free actions in a turn as you want and don't have to downgrade a swift action to a free action to get more of them.

Second, what Grick said. Note also the above limitation of two spells per round, which prevents the Magus from using three Shocking Grasp spellstrikes in a round.


Weirdo wrote:
A bit odd to specify that if it wasn't possible to have two swift actions in a round.

Swift Action: "You can perform only a single swift action per turn."

Swift Actions: "You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take."

Weirdo wrote:
Note also the above limitation of two spells per round, which prevents the Magus from using three Shocking Grasp spellstrikes in a round.

Except that's actually possible.

Cast Shocking Grasp, hold the charge. Next round, use Spell Combat and attack, delivering the spell via Spellstrike when you hit. Then cast Shocking Grasp, and deliver the spell via Spellstrike with your free attack. Once all that's done, cast Quickened Shocking Grasp, and deliver the spell via Spellstrike with your free attack.

He can't cast shocking grasp three times in one round, but he can deliver it three times. (None of which has anything to do with action swapping)

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Grick wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
If you allow free action swapping, a magus could use Spellstrike 3 times in a single round, a potentially devastating combo, and that's just one basic example.

Spellstrike does not use an action.

If a magus can make three attacks on his turn, and he's got three touches from a spell, he can use Spellstrike all three times.

My point was that he could swift cast twice and then standard cast to get three spells and three attacks out of a single rounds worth of actions, although I had forgotten about the limitation on uses of Quicken Spell.

Shadow Lodge

Which is exactly what the Quicken Spell limitation prevents him from doing, though Grick's note about holding the charge from a previous round's casting of Shocking Grasp is accurate (assuming you hit and discharge the spells successfully). Hadn't considered that one.

Grick wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
A bit odd to specify that if it wasn't possible to have two swift actions in a round.

Swift Action: "You can perform only a single swift action per turn."

Swift Actions: "You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take."

Hence the edit on my post which you may have missed, clarifying that while I do think the RAW you reference is clear, the restriction against casting two swift action spells in a round suggests that the devs considered that at some point a player may gain the ability to use two swifts in a round.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Sometimes, they just like to restate the rules in little reminders throughout the rules.

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