What are your thoughts on this group’s chances of successfully completing a Pathfinder AP? Is there any Pathfinder AP where this couldn’t have conceivably worked?
I don’t get to play very often as most times, I’m the DM. For one of the upcoming campaigns we are thinking of playing an all fighter party. The idea is to be a group of ex-military, mercenary types, reminiscent of the The Black Company. We are out for hire and operate under our own code. At the moment, I’m looking forward to playing this group through either Reign of Winter or Wrath of the Righteous.
I really don’t want this to be a discussion on whether fighters are better than casters. I actually like playing casters too. Someday, I’d like to run an all arcane caster party too. However, I can’t think of a scenario in a Paizo AP that necessitates one type of class to be present.
I’m specifically calling out Pathfinder Aps since I’m not familiar with Shackled City, Age of Worms, or Savage Tide. I’ve read through RotRL, CotCT, SD, Lof, Serpent’s Skull, JR. I’m also somewhat familiar with Council of Thieves and King Maker, but only as a player.
But here is the group that we are considering.
1. Fighter, Archer Archetype
2. Fighter, TH Weapon Archetype
3. Fighter, Tactician Archetype
4. Cavalier, Houndmaster Archetype
The Tactician and the Cavalier are our “intellectuals”; decent INT scores, well-read, knowledgeable. Between them, they have ranks in UMD, Diplomacy, and various knowledge categories.
With all that said, please let me know you’re thoughts. I know that we won’t be seeing the RoW or RotR APs for some time so it is impossible to say what challenges will be there. However, based on what we know of past APs, I’d think this would be a fun challenge. . . . unless I’m forgetting some big pitfalls.
I doubt Wrath of the Righteous will be possible without at least one Divine Caster.
I doubt Wrath of the Righteous will be possible without at least one Divine Caster.
I'm not so sure. I would say WotR begs for some divine types to be played, but I'd be surprised if it will be impossible to play it without one. Of course it is all speculation until WotR comes out, which is why I was leaning the questions toward existing APs.
I ran a group through Second Darkness with a bard as the only caster. (They had two different clerics early on, but we lost both players due to RL issues and decided to go on without trying to replace them.) I provided an allied NPC cleric in a few cases.
Honestly, I found the lack of a full arcane caster much harder to replicate through wands/bard spells. By the time you get to books 4 and 5, the adventure assumes your party will have certain spells available (fly, see invisibility, dispel magic, etc.), and encounters become next to impossible without an arcane caster. I had to heavily fudge to keep my guys from being instantly shut down by some of the monster special abilities they had no way to counter. Without the bard, they never would have made it that far. I guess if you provide lots of extra wealth to purchase the right wands and make sure they're readily available, it could be done.
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CotCT could probably be done with a non-spellcasting group. It would be pretty difficult at times, but if you have enough UMD you can always use wands. It would probably be the hardest in Part 5, where the party goes to Scarwall, but as long as the GM is clear about what they will face and the party is good at preparing for it, things should be okay.
I would point out to any GM trying such a campaign that a little extra treasure is in order in this situation. Because of the lack of spellcasters, the party will be in need of a little extra gear. This would mostly be for cure potions and wands, restoration spells, visits to the nearest temple to get a fallen party member raised, and for other gear and spells.
I ran a group through Second Darkness with a bard as the only caster. (They had two different clerics early on, but we lost both players due to RL issues and decided to go on without trying to replace them.) I provided an allied NPC cleric in a few cases.
Honestly, I found the lack of a full arcane caster much harder to replicate through wands/bard spells. By the time you get to books 4 and 5, the adventure assumes your party will have certain spells available (fly, see invisibility, dispel magic, etc.), and encounters become next to impossible without an arcane caster. I had to heavily fudge to keep my guys from being instantly shut down by some of the monster special abilities they had no way to counter. Without the bard, they never would have made it that far. I guess if you provide lots of extra wealth to purchase the right wands and make sure they're readily available, it could be done.
Do you recall what made up the rest of the party? As it happens, I'm running Second Darkness for a "almost" casterless party. It consists of a fighter, paladin, rogue, and ranger; not exactly void of spell caster, but they don't have a dedicated caster. They've wiped everthing easily, but we're only just starting Endless Night.
Do you happen to recall any specific creatures you had to fudge with?
And thanks by the way.
CotCT could probably be done with a non-spellcasting group. It would be pretty difficult at times, but if you have enough UMD you can always use wands. It would probably be the hardest in Part 5, where the party goes to Scarwall, but as long as the GM is clear about what they will face and the party is good at preparing for it, things should be okay.
I would point out to any GM trying such a campaign that a little extra treasure is in order in this situation. Because of the lack of spellcasters, the party will be in need of a little extra gear. This would mostly be for cure potions and wands, restoration spells, visits to the nearest temple to get a fallen party member raised, and for other gear and spells.
I could see Scarwall being very tough, though it looks like a slog for any group unless you just happen to have the right party.
Gear would be a big challenge. As would the availability of NPCs for downtime, healing, removing curses, crafting items. Though, I'm leaning toward the stance that most APs have enough treasure to survive. It may be short supply through certain episodes, but that would be part of the challenge too.
Do you recall what made up the rest of the party? As it happens, I'm running Second Darkness for a "almost" casterless party. It consists of a fighter, paladin, rogue, and ranger; not exactly void of spell caster, but they don't have a dedicated caster. They've wiped everthing easily, but we're only just starting Endless Night.
Do you happen to recall any specific creatures you had to fudge with?
And thanks by the way.
My group was fighter/chevalier, rogue/ranger, monk, and bard. Up until Endless Night, they had either a PC or NPC cleric with them most of the time.
We actually stalled out shortly after beginning book 5 (our bard was going to college out of town and then got engaged, and his fiancee didn't like him spending his weekend afternoons without her. :P ), but I was concerned about their chances against the banshees and demons in book 5 without a full arcane or divine caster to support them. I hadn't even gotten far enough to worry about how they were going to disable the glyphs in book 6, while making DC 25 or 30 rolls every round. Then again, we're very unused to high-level play. Most of the campaigns we were in before trying an AP ended by 9th level, so maybe I was just panicking needlessly. Having actually run an encounter where the PCs needed to roll, say, a natural 12 to save every round, and none of them ever made the roll the whole time, I'm leery about any encounter that relies on assuming people are going to succeed at saves.
Kingmaker could work.
Skull and Shackles would be better. That one can be played without a caster at all. Just have a healer around for down times. One of the crew with a wand.
All of the APs are gonna be tough without casters in the last 2 chapters.
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I agree with zagnabbit - Kingmaker and Skull and Shackles could easily work. Council of Thieves might work, too. Many of the other AP's assume certain spell capabilities at higher levels, particularly divination, transport, and healing ones.
Still, wouldn't hurt to hedge your bets and have an NPC healer travel with the group. Someone runs for cover when the fighting starts, and patches the party after combat is over. Allowing leadership past 6th level for spellcasting followers wouldn't hurt either. What group of warriors wouldn't have a bard following them chronicling there heroism?
My Group just finished Serpent's Skull, and while we did technically have casters, they didn't do much spell-wise. We had a paladin who mostly used heroic sacrifice to save others, an Inquisitor, who mostly just used divine power and once or twice Magic circle spells, and a bard who used the inspiring spells (and a few well placed Dimension doors). Other than the Dimension Doors (which was relevant in only 1 session where we bit off WAY more than we could chew) nothing required spells, the inability to fly was annoying, but we had 1.5 effective combat archers so they could usually handle flying things.
Many of the other AP's assume certain spell capabilities at higher levels, particularly divination, transport, and healing ones.
See I'm not so sure if the APs really assume this. It sounds reasonable, but I can't find or remember a situation that is insurmountable in an AP without casters.
By the way, I'm not trying to be arguementative. I really want to play this group, so I'm being a bit of an advocate to players who aren't as familiar with the APs. We know playing this group will be challenge. I'm guessing, we should be OK since no one has said. "Wait a second, in issue 6 of "X" AP, there's that room that you can't get past without teleport, plane shift, and wish."
Still, wouldn't hurt to hedge your bets and have an NPC healer travel with the group. Someone runs for cover when the fighting starts, and patches the party after combat is over. Allowing leadership past 6th level for spellcasting followers wouldn't hurt either. What group of warriors wouldn't have a bard following them chronicling there heroism?
I totally agree here. It seems that most APs have one or two NPCs that can help in the healing area if neeede. We'd be relying heavily on the fact that we deal significant damage, enought to end most fights fairly fast, and heal in downtime. We love having NPCs anyway.
Well, the Black Company had Goblin, Silent, and One-Eye around for the magic stuff. You could have some spell casting NPC's on the side that the party can parlay with for magical effects they think they may need.
"Hey Goblin, I think we may run across a vampire, a body of water, and its hot out. What could you whip up for us before we head out?"
I knew someone would point that out. Hopefully, there will be some NPCs who can fill the roles of Goblin and One-Eye.
but we had 1.5 effective combat archers so they could usually handle flying things.
We would cover this too. The goal is to have every member of the party capable of dealing some ranged damage, even though only one is focusing on archery.