Barbarian vs Gun, barbarian wins?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


I was looking through barbarian abilities when I realized a silly loophole. A human urban barbarian with the favored class bonus to superstition and ghost rager could potentially have higher touch ac than regular ac.

so much for guns being more accurate within the first range increment.


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:

I was looking through barbarian abilities when I realized a silly loophole. A human urban barbarian with the favored class bonus to superstition and ghost rager could potentially have higher touch ac than regular ac.

so much for guns being more accurate within the first range increment.

A specific class with 3 specific prerequisites (though the urban part isn't needed) can have a marginally higher touch AC then normal AC and that makes guns inaccurate?

wut

Sczarni

and how high is that ac at what level? lol... pretty sure the gunslinger will still be able to hit it.


In theory you are correct, in practice a barbarian who doesn't have higher regular AC than touch AC with ghost rager bonus has problems. Ghost Rager is +2, +3 at level 4, +4 at level 8 etc maxing out to +9 at level 20. If your level 20 barbarian isn't wearing at least a +5 mithril shirt then his touch AC from ghost rager would be higher than his regular AC, provided the barbarian also didn't take the beast totem rage power, wear bracers of armor, wear an amulet of natural armor ... .

That said, yes ghost rager can raise touch AC and make barbs with it tougher for gunslingers, monks do it better.

Dark Archive

Level 12 barbarian human

Touch AC
10 + 3 (dex) + 9 (ghost rager) + 1 (insight) + 1 dodge - 2 rage + 3 deflection (ring of protection) = 25 touch AC while raging.

You can get more with urban barbarian (much higher dex), rolling dodge (+3)

Sczarni

awesome, so while raging you've got a awesome touch ac... let's see gunslinger lvl 12.

BAB 12, dex 5, gun enhancement 3 sounds fair. weapon focus +1. Just with basic stuff (dex might even be 6 or 7)

21 to hit vs a touch ac 25? seems tough to hit to me! lol...


lantzkev wrote:

awesome, so while raging you've got a awesome touch ac... let's see gunslinger lvl 12.

BAB 12, dex 5, gun enhancement 3 sounds fair. weapon focus +1. Just with basic stuff (dex might even be 6 or 7)

21 to hit vs a touch ac 25? seems tough to hit to me! lol...

penalties for shooting into melee +21 becomes +17

penalties for allies providing cover, another -4 for the gunslinger

deadly aim, another -4

those effectively reduce the Gunslinger to +9.

Guns are also more expensive than normal weapons, so a +3 gun costs a lot more, it also has the downside of being extremely rare treasure, and paper cartridges are quite expensive per shot. firing multiple times per round requires a free hand, rapid reload and paper cartridges. so no TWF for you unless you have one of the following, weapon cords and free action spamming, a prehensile tail, or a 3rd arm. which is another -2.

plus you have to be in barbarian charge (pounce) range to get your touch attack. DR 6/- takes the sting out of your pitiful innacurate bullets and being feat starved, either your accuracy suffers, or your damage per hit suffers.


Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
lantzkev wrote:

awesome, so while raging you've got a awesome touch ac... let's see gunslinger lvl 12.

BAB 12, dex 5, gun enhancement 3 sounds fair. weapon focus +1. Just with basic stuff (dex might even be 6 or 7)

21 to hit vs a touch ac 25? seems tough to hit to me! lol...

penalties for shooting into melee +21 becomes +17

penalties for allies providing cover, another -4 for the gunslinger

deadly aim, another -4

those effectively reduce the Gunslinger to +9.

Guns are also more expensive than normal weapons, so a +3 gun costs a lot more, it also has the downside of being extremely rare treasure, and paper cartridges are quite expensive per shot. firing multiple times per round requires a free hand, rapid reload and paper cartridges. so no TWF for you unless you have one of the following, weapon cords and free action spamming, a prehensile tail, or a 3rd arm. which is another -2.

plus you have to be in barbarian charge (pounce) range to get your touch attack. DR 6/- takes the sting out of your pitiful innacurate bullets and being feat starved, either your accuracy suffers, or your damage per hit suffers.

Um, gunslinger is definitely going to have the feat to shoot into melee without penalty. He should also be able to ignore cover.


johnlocke90 wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
lantzkev wrote:

awesome, so while raging you've got a awesome touch ac... let's see gunslinger lvl 12.

BAB 12, dex 5, gun enhancement 3 sounds fair. weapon focus +1. Just with basic stuff (dex might even be 6 or 7)

21 to hit vs a touch ac 25? seems tough to hit to me! lol...

penalties for shooting into melee +21 becomes +17

penalties for allies providing cover, another -4 for the gunslinger

deadly aim, another -4

those effectively reduce the Gunslinger to +9.

Guns are also more expensive than normal weapons, so a +3 gun costs a lot more, it also has the downside of being extremely rare treasure, and paper cartridges are quite expensive per shot. firing multiple times per round requires a free hand, rapid reload and paper cartridges. so no TWF for you unless you have one of the following, weapon cords and free action spamming, a prehensile tail, or a 3rd arm. which is another -2.

plus you have to be in barbarian charge (pounce) range to get your touch attack. DR 6/- takes the sting out of your pitiful innacurate bullets and being feat starved, either your accuracy suffers, or your damage per hit suffers.

Um, gunslinger is definitely going to have the feat to shoot into melee without penalty. He should also be able to ignore cover.

the first of those requires a feat tax of point blank shot. the second has much harsher requirements and a minimum level of 11. meaning no signature deed.

i guess there is a property to ignore cover. but it reduces the Gun's effective DR bypassing ability. firearms aren't cheap. they cost more than most siege engines. masterwork ones even more so.


Firearms are just a flat few thousand gold. Making them magical makes the base price negligible.

Grand Lodge

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
lantzkev wrote:

awesome, so while raging you've got a awesome touch ac... let's see gunslinger lvl 12.

BAB 12, dex 5, gun enhancement 3 sounds fair. weapon focus +1. Just with basic stuff (dex might even be 6 or 7)

21 to hit vs a touch ac 25? seems tough to hit to me! lol...

penalties for shooting into melee +21 becomes +17

penalties for allies providing cover, another -4 for the gunslinger

deadly aim, another -4

those effectively reduce the Gunslinger to +9.

Guns are also more expensive than normal weapons, so a +3 gun costs a lot more, it also has the downside of being extremely rare treasure, and paper cartridges are quite expensive per shot. firing multiple times per round requires a free hand, rapid reload and paper cartridges. so no TWF for you unless you have one of the following, weapon cords and free action spamming, a prehensile tail, or a 3rd arm. which is another -2.

plus you have to be in barbarian charge (pounce) range to get your touch attack. DR 6/- takes the sting out of your pitiful innacurate bullets and being feat starved, either your accuracy suffers, or your damage per hit suffers.

Um, gunslinger is definitely going to have the feat to shoot into melee without penalty. He should also be able to ignore cover.

the first of those requires a feat tax of point blank shot. the second has much harsher requirements and a minimum level of 11. meaning no signature deed.

i guess there is a property to ignore cover. but it reduces the Gun's effective DR bypassing ability. firearms aren't cheap. they cost more than most siege engines. masterwork ones even more so.

Seriously, you gonna tell me your making a gunslinger who isn't gonna have precise shot? Really? And improved precise shot? Deadly aim isn't something you HAVE to use you know. The base cost of weapons is insignificant to actual magic weapon prices really.

I thought we assumed NOT a moron...or did I miss the memo where the gunslinger in question was suppose to be built by the guy who wants skill focus craft basketweaving?

Sczarni

Everything you mentioned was silly and not even a point at lvl 12. Lets say standard wealth and a 15pt buy

dex 21(25)(+7) (three level increases)
feats: weapon focus, point blank shot, precise shot, rapid fire(musket master), rapid shot, deadly aim, improved critical.

Dex belt +4 (16k)
Musket +3 (add 32k if you go for a +4, but for a +3 18k to the base musket cost of 300gp for masterworking your own, or 1800 if buying outright)

just with that we're looking at 12+7+3+1+1=24. There's also around 76k of the 108k left to spend.

I'm really going to go on a limb and say a lvl 12 gunslinger will have zero trouble hitting a whatever barbarian you can throw at him.

You can discuss the who will win etc, but hitting? yeah zero problems there.

Sczarni

Also, who doesn't want point blank shot? +1 to hit and damage within 30ft? yes please.


lantzkev wrote:
Also, who doesn't want point blank shot? +1 to hit and damage within 30ft? yes please.

ESPECIALLY a gunslinger since he wants them close for the first range increment of most of the guns.


Is it nice to have the extra AC to touch attacks from ghost rager? Yes.

Does it shut down the gunslinger? No.

Look, at level 20 with 18 favored class bonuses you will have +11 to touch AC from ghost rager. At level 20 a gunslinger will be +20 to attack just from BAB. For every other bonus to touch AC you can come up with, a gunslinger also has a way to increase her hit bonus (perhaps even more since gunslingers are so SAD). Where this touch AC bonus will really shine is against ranged touch spell using wizards & sorcerers, 1/2 BAB classes which only gets +10 to BAB at level 20.

A Barb with ghost rager will be a tougher nut for a gunslinger to crack than a class without a touch AC bonus. Off the top of my head; monks, paladins, inquisitors all have touch AC bonuses built into the class and don't need a special build like a rage powers & favored class bonuses to access them; touch AC bonus isn't something unique to Barbs. From the example 12th level barb, a commoner NPC with the same stats & gear would have a touch AC of 18, so the barb isn't getting a game breaking advantage with a touch AC of 25.

Sczarni

cnetarian wrote:

Is it nice to have the extra AC to touch attacks from ghost rager? Yes.

Does it shut down the gunslinger? No.

Look, at level 20 with 18 favored class bonuses you will have +11 to touch AC from ghost rager. At level 20 a gunslinger will be +20 to attack just from BAB. For every other bonus to touch AC you can come up with, a gunslinger also has a way to increase her hit bonus (perhaps even more since gunslingers are so SAD). Where this touch AC bonus will really shine is against ranged touch spell using wizards & sorcerers, 1/2 BAB classes which only gets +10 to BAB at level 20.

A Barb with ghost rager will be a tougher nut for a gunslinger to crack than a class without a touch AC bonus. Off the top of my head; monks, paladins, inquisitors all have touch AC bonuses built into the class and don't need a special build like a rage powers & favored class bonuses to access them; touch AC bonus isn't something unique to Barbs. From the example 12th level barb, a commoner NPC with the same stats & gear would have a touch AC of 18, so the barb isn't getting a game breaking advantage with a touch AC of 25.

Well considering the difference between the lvl 12 gunslinger needing 2+ to hit the commoner and a 3+ to hit the barbe, he's doubled his odds of living!


If touch AC becomes harder to hit than regular AC, and you have to be in pounce range to do it... why not just back off to normal-AC targeting range? Farther away = easier to land the hit against the barbarian who is superstitious about the existence of bullets.

Sczarni

Another excellent point lol


Cold Napalm wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
lantzkev wrote:

awesome, so while raging you've got a awesome touch ac... let's see gunslinger lvl 12.

BAB 12, dex 5, gun enhancement 3 sounds fair. weapon focus +1. Just with basic stuff (dex might even be 6 or 7)

21 to hit vs a touch ac 25? seems tough to hit to me! lol...

penalties for shooting into melee +21 becomes +17

penalties for allies providing cover, another -4 for the gunslinger

deadly aim, another -4

those effectively reduce the Gunslinger to +9.

Guns are also more expensive than normal weapons, so a +3 gun costs a lot more, it also has the downside of being extremely rare treasure, and paper cartridges are quite expensive per shot. firing multiple times per round requires a free hand, rapid reload and paper cartridges. so no TWF for you unless you have one of the following, weapon cords and free action spamming, a prehensile tail, or a 3rd arm. which is another -2.

plus you have to be in barbarian charge (pounce) range to get your touch attack. DR 6/- takes the sting out of your pitiful innacurate bullets and being feat starved, either your accuracy suffers, or your damage per hit suffers.

Um, gunslinger is definitely going to have the feat to shoot into melee without penalty. He should also be able to ignore cover.

the first of those requires a feat tax of point blank shot. the second has much harsher requirements and a minimum level of 11. meaning no signature deed.

i guess there is a property to ignore cover. but it reduces the Gun's effective DR bypassing ability. firearms aren't cheap. they cost more than most siege engines. masterwork ones even more so.

Seriously, you gonna tell me your making a gunslinger who isn't gonna have precise shot? Really? And improved precise shot? Deadly aim isn't something you HAVE to use you know. The base cost of weapons is insignificant to actual magic weapon prices really.

I thought we assumed NOT...

Cold napalm seems to be a angry guy but he is right. Any gunslinger woud take precise shot.

A hihger level gunslingers is not feat starved.


Cold Napalm wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
lantzkev wrote:

awesome, so while raging you've got a awesome touch ac... let's see gunslinger lvl 12.

BAB 12, dex 5, gun enhancement 3 sounds fair. weapon focus +1. Just with basic stuff (dex might even be 6 or 7)

21 to hit vs a touch ac 25? seems tough to hit to me! lol...

penalties for shooting into melee +21 becomes +17

penalties for allies providing cover, another -4 for the gunslinger

deadly aim, another -4

those effectively reduce the Gunslinger to +9.

Guns are also more expensive than normal weapons, so a +3 gun costs a lot more, it also has the downside of being extremely rare treasure, and paper cartridges are quite expensive per shot. firing multiple times per round requires a free hand, rapid reload and paper cartridges. so no TWF for you unless you have one of the following, weapon cords and free action spamming, a prehensile tail, or a 3rd arm. which is another -2.

plus you have to be in barbarian charge (pounce) range to get your touch attack. DR 6/- takes the sting out of your pitiful innacurate bullets and being feat starved, either your accuracy suffers, or your damage per hit suffers.

Um, gunslinger is definitely going to have the feat to shoot into melee without penalty. He should also be able to ignore cover.

the first of those requires a feat tax of point blank shot. the second has much harsher requirements and a minimum level of 11. meaning no signature deed.

i guess there is a property to ignore cover. but it reduces the Gun's effective DR bypassing ability. firearms aren't cheap. they cost more than most siege engines. masterwork ones even more so.

Seriously, you gonna tell me your making a gunslinger who isn't gonna have precise shot? Really? And improved precise shot? Deadly aim isn't something you HAVE to use you know. The base cost of weapons is insignificant to actual magic weapon prices really.

I thought we assumed NOT...

point blank shot, precise shot, improved precise shot, rapid reload. that is 4 of the 6 feats a level 12 character possesses. if we factor deadly aim (a must have for ranged damage) that is 5 right there. oh wait, gunslingers get 3 bonus feats. since your grit is so low, extra grit at least once is a must. iron will is also needed (poor will save) you need dodge and mobility to take the deft shootist deed to not provoke when shooting in enemy reach. oh wait, 1 feat left (2 if human) to spend on utility. toughness or weapon finesse would be greatly appreciated at the low levels when guns are so expensive.

a lower level gunslinger is quite feat starved at the low levels. until the point where feats are no longer an issue (10th-12th level) and i didn't even have enough space to factor 2WF for pistoleros, a whole 3 extra feats would be needed.

and paper cartridges are 6GP a pop, in other words, 120 times the cost of an arrow, and that's if you craft them. i doubt those bullets will last more than a whole adventure on thier own, unless you subtraced a huge chunk of your wealth and resources to stockpile them.


Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

point blank shot, precise shot, improved precise shot, rapid reload. that is 4 of the 6 feats a level 12 character possesses. if we factor deadly aim (a must have for ranged damage) that is 5 right there. oh wait, gunslingers get 3 bonus feats. since your grit is so low, extra grit at least once is a must. iron will is also needed (poor will save) you need dodge and mobility to take the deft shootist deed to not provoke when shooting in enemy reach. oh wait, 1 feat left (2 if human) to spend on utility. toughness or weapon finesse would be greatly appreciated at the low levels when guns are so expensive.

a lower level gunslinger is quite feat starved at the low levels. until the point where feats are no longer an issue (10th-12th level) and i didn't even have enough space to factor 2WF for pistoleros, a whole 3 extra feats would be needed.

and paper cartridges are 6GP a pop, in other words, 120 times the cost of an arrow, and that's if you craft them. i doubt those bullets will last more than a whole adventure on thier own, unless you subtraced a huge chunk of your wealth and resources to stockpile them.

If your excellent at manuevering, and besides Step Up, it isn't too hard to just five foot step away and shoot unprovoked. They also have great AC to begin with anyways (Dex, armor proficiency, and base gunslinger gets a cool dodge bonus.) D10 hitdice is also worth mentioning. So Deft Shootist can become pretty situational with good maneuvering.

Also, at around 10th level, you probably are going to have thousands of gold to where a paper cartridge doesn't even matter on cost. And also, they are proficient with bows, which a lot of their feats can also be used for, so that can save them lots as well.

Sczarni

A gun is not expensive for gunslingers since they start with one, and get to upgrade it for cheap.

until you're worried about shooting more than one shot a round (lvl 3-5 really) you don't need to worry as much about alchemical cartridges if they're that starved for gold.

Hell, you've got a great BAB for those levels anyhow, just pull out a melee weapon, or do the butt of the gun attack.


Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

point blank shot, precise shot, improved precise shot, rapid reload. that is 4 of the 6 feats a level 12 character possesses. if we factor deadly aim (a must have for ranged damage) that is 5 right there. oh wait, gunslingers get 3 bonus feats. since your grit is so low, extra grit at least once is a must. iron will is also needed (poor will save) you need dodge and mobility to take the deft shootist deed to not provoke when shooting in enemy reach. oh wait, 1 feat left (2 if human) to spend on utility. toughness or weapon finesse would be greatly appreciated at the low levels when guns are so expensive.

a lower level gunslinger is quite feat starved at the low levels. until the point where feats are no longer an issue (10th-12th level) and i didn't even have enough space to factor 2WF for pistoleros, a whole 3 extra feats would be needed.

and paper cartridges are 6GP a pop, in other words, 120 times the cost of an arrow, and that's if you craft them. i doubt those bullets will last more than a whole adventure on thier own, unless you subtraced a huge chunk of your wealth and resources to stockpile them.

Gunslinger has 3 bonus feats, so 9 feats overall at level 12. Not 6.


There might be an easier way. Do the Deflect Arrows and Missle Shield feats work against firearms? Does a firearm count as a ranged weapon?

Sczarni

You're all forgetting one very important thing.

The OP didn't say "Barbarian vs. Gunslinger", he said "Barbarian vs. Gun". Who said the guy shooting the barbarian is a Gunslinger?

What if it's Barbarian vs. Spellslinger wizard? Or Barbarian vs. Holy Gun Inquisitor? Musketeer Cavalier?

Or heck, Barbarian vs. Fighter with Gun?


Silent Saturn wrote:

You're all forgetting one very important thing.

The OP didn't say "Barbarian vs. Gunslinger", he said "Barbarian vs. Gun". Who said the guy shooting the barbarian is a Gunslinger?

What if it's Barbarian vs. Spellslinger wizard? Or Barbarian vs. Holy Gun Inquisitor? Musketeer Cavalier?

Or heck, Barbarian vs. Fighter with Gun?

If it's Barbarian vs. Barbarian with Gun, barbarian wins either way.

Sczarni

What if the Barbarians name is Kurt Cobain the destroyer?


Silent Saturn wrote:

You're all forgetting one very important thing.

The OP didn't say "Barbarian vs. Gunslinger", he said "Barbarian vs. Gun". Who said the guy shooting the barbarian is a Gunslinger?

What if it's Barbarian vs. Spellslinger wizard? Or Barbarian vs. Holy Gun Inquisitor? Musketeer Cavalier?

Or heck, Barbarian vs. Fighter with Gun?

By that logic, he could be sundering a gun that no one is holding. I think even a wizard with 0 spells left could manage that eventually =P. Also, he didn't specify that it was NOT a gunslinger, either; people are pointing out that if the gun is held by the right person, barbarians don't win just because of a somewhat high touch AC. So, their arguments are still quite valid (in my opinion).

Liberty's Edge

In a battle of wits between the barbarian and the gun, nobody wins.


DeathSpot wrote:
In a battle of wits between the barbarian and the gun, nobody wins.

What if it's a magic gun that happens to have intelligence?

Liberty's Edge

Tar-Tar wrote:
DeathSpot wrote:
In a battle of wits between the barbarian and the gun, nobody wins.
What if it's a magic gun that happens to have intelligence?

What if it's a magic barbarian that happens to have intelligence?

Sczarni

Tar-Tar wrote:
Silent Saturn wrote:

You're all forgetting one very important thing.

The OP didn't say "Barbarian vs. Gunslinger", he said "Barbarian vs. Gun". Who said the guy shooting the barbarian is a Gunslinger?

What if it's Barbarian vs. Spellslinger wizard? Or Barbarian vs. Holy Gun Inquisitor? Musketeer Cavalier?

Or heck, Barbarian vs. Fighter with Gun?

By that logic, he could be sundering a gun that no one is holding. I think even a wizard with 0 spells left could manage that eventually =P. Also, he didn't specify that it was NOT a gunslinger, either; people are pointing out that if the gun is held by the right person, barbarians don't win just because of a somewhat high touch AC. So, their arguments are still quite valid (in my opinion).

Most of the pro-barbarian arguments I'm hearing are based on the idea that gunslingers are feat-starved. Most of the pro-gun arguments are about how gunslingers get to add DEX to damage, will have really high DEX because they don't need any other stat, etc. Nobody seems to consider the idea that the gun might be wielded by anyone else. Does it change the debate? Does it matter who's shooting?

Is there another class that might do better against this barbarian with a gun? Would a fighter have a better chance of beating the barbarian due to not being feat-starved? Would a musketeer Cavalier have access to an order that tips the scales in its favor?

Personally, I think a Black Powder Inquisitor would have much better odds than the Gunslinger in this scenario. Quickened True Strike, folks, Quickened True Strike.


DeathSpot wrote:
What if it's a magic barbarian that happens to have intelligence?

Touche'

Silent Saturn wrote:

Most of the pro-barbarian arguments I'm hearing are based on the idea that gunslingers are feat-starved. Most of the pro-gun arguments are about how gunslingers get to add DEX to damage, will have really high DEX because they don't need any other stat, etc. Nobody seems to consider the idea that the gun might be wielded by anyone else. Does it change the debate? Does it matter who's shooting?

Is there another class that might do better against this barbarian with a gun? Would a fighter have a better chance of beating the barbarian due to not being feat-starved? Would a musketeer Cavalier have access to an order that tips the scales in its favor?

Personally, I think a Black Powder Inquisitor would have much better odds than the Gunslinger in this scenario. Quickened True Strike, folks, Quickened True Strike.

True, there are things besides gunslingers. What I mostly meant is that the posts show that a barbarian, regardless of touch AC, is not always going to beat someone with a gun. People have been pointing this out with the gunslinger, but you're right; there are other archetypes that can handle a gun effectively, and perhaps any of these archetypes could take down a barbarian.


Its a cool combo, guns are cooler... nuff said.

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