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I'm making a human archer paladin of Iomedae in the Silver Crusade for Pathfinder Society. Those details are non-negotiable. Now I'm trying to figure out the rest of the build.
I looked at the Divine Hunter archetype, which gives Precise Shot as a bonus feat at level 1, but it gives up too much good stuff, and doesn't get much good stuff other than Precise Shot, so I don't think it's really worth it.
The archetype I am seriously considering is Oathbound, with an Oath of Vengeance. Giving up channeling for extra smites seems like a worthwhile trade off, and goes well with the character's personality of caring more about smiting evil than the protecting and healing sides of being a paladin.
Being an archer, much of the feat selection is pre-decided:
1 - Point Blank Shot
1 - Precise Shot (human bonus feat)
3 - Rapid Shot
5 - Deadly Aim
7 - ???
9 - ???
11 - Improved Precise Shot
You'd think Many Shot and Clustered Shot would be obvious choices for those level 7 and 9 feats, but they might not be. The purpose of Clustered Shot is to overcome DR, and I'll usually be smiting anything with enough DR to worry about, so I'll already ignore DR, making that a waste of a feat. There's also Snap Shot, but it requires Weapon Focus as a prerequisite, and paladins just don't get enough feats to bother with all that. As for Many Shot, that has a 17 Dex minimum, which brings up my next dilemma - what to do about attributes.
Which should I consider my primary stat: dexterity or charisma? When it comes to hitting with my bow, dexterity wins, because it applies to everything, not just when I'm smiting. When it comes to AC, charisma wins, because my dex will already be as high as my armor will allow, but the smite bonus to AC goes on top of that. Dexterity has the added bonus of helping initiative. Charisma increases all of a paladin's saving throws starting at level 2, which is huge, and charisma controls uses per day of Lay on Hands, which is also huge, especially if I go Oath of Vengeance and give up uses of Lay on Hands for more Smites per day. So I'm leaning towards charisma being more important than dexterity.
So here's my first thought for a stat array, though I keep moving numbers around:
Str: 14 (5)
Dex: 14 (5)
Con: 11 (1)
Int: 10
Wis: 7 (-4)
Cha: 19 (13, +2 racial)
But that brings me back to the 17 dex requirement for Many Shot. If I only start with a 14 dex, that means I won't qualify for the feat until I can afford a +4 dex belt. So then I looked at what it would take to have a 15 dex just so a +2 belt would get me to Many Shot:
Str: 14 (5)
Dex: 15 (7)
Con: 12 (2)
Int: 10
Wis: 7 (-4)
Cha: 18 (10, +2 racial)
Or I could balance them better, and start with 16 or 17 in both dex and cha. I just like the odd starting charisma, because that lets me increase my bonus as soon as I hit level 4 and pump another point in it.
I like the 14 str for damage, and the occasional times that I'll have to wade into melee, but I guess I could lower that to 12 to be able to afford the 15 dex while keeping the 19 cha. I don't want to dump int, because paladins already get only 2 skill ranks, but I'm ok with dumping wisdom. Having her be average intelligence but naive works for me. Not being a front liner and having d10 HP, I'm ok with my con only being in the 10-12 range, though a 12 would be nice to have there.
So I need to decide my stats, and come up with what feats I'll want at levels 7 and 9. Extra Lay on Hands seems like a decent choice for any paladin. I was also looking at the human Defiant Luck feat, which will let me re-roll a natural 1 on a saving throw once per day. Since paladins get such great saves, a natural 1 might be my biggest weakness, and that feat could help with that.
There's also Protector's Strike from Faiths of Purity, which lets me give my Smite Evil AC bonus to someone else instead of myself. If it said "can" or "may" in the feat description, I'd think that's awesome for an archer paladin, since you can boost the AC of your front line allies. But the wording makes it seem non-optional, which means if I take that feat, I'll never get the AC bonus for myself again, because I always have to give it to someone else. I may wait until I actually hit level 7 and re-evaluate how often I rely on that AC bonus for myself to decide if I want that feat.
As for stuff besides archetypes, attributes, and feats, I'm pretty sure I want the "Scholar of the Great Beyond" trait, to get Knowledge (Planes) as a class skill. You'd think that would already be a class skill, since paladins need to recognize their best smite targets, but it isn't.
I was also looking at the Bully or Extremely Fashionable traits to get Intimidate as a class skill. There's also the old standby of Reactionary to get +2 initiative, or the Silver Crusade's Sure Thing trait to get a +2 to hit against an evil target once per day.
Any thoughts?
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I suppose you will go for the weapon bond (this being PFS with small cramped dungeons et al).
However, consider investing in a Mount for full-attack while moving. Get Lookout both for your Mount and yourself for a full-attack on the round of surprise.
The Shining Knight archetype can then be a great boost to your Mount's survival (but it is not compatible with Oath of Vengeance) and a Hosteling armor later on will allow you to keep your Mount safe when it's too cramped for its taste.
Concerning the stats, CHA is the uber-primary stat for Paladins. Boost it as much as you can.
For feats, with your 14 STR, do not hesitate to take Power Attack, this way when you cannot get far from your enemy, you will still be dishing out nice amounts of damage (with a two-handed weapon of course).
If you're looking for maximum damage output go Oath of Vengeance, take Extra Lay on Hands (more smites) as well as the regular archery feats.
I also like the Fey Foundling feat, since it scales very well.
If I were you I wouldn't dump both Wis and Int, but i play in groups that use their stats in rollplaying. You'd be a mentally handicapped, half blind weirdo, with no common sence. Roll playing will be stupid, and you'd technically be dumb in combat as well. (Appart from the first session, when it is hillarius.)
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If 7 makes me mentally handicapped and half-blind, then does 14 mean I'm automatically a brain surgeon?
People seriously exaggerate what a low score represents.
I would prioritize dex over cha. Cha adds to hit when you are smiting, all 3 saves, you lay on hands, and to you spell dcs. Dex adds to your hit all the time, your reflex save, your ac, and pre-reqs for feats.
As a archer, you are going to have less need for LoH on yourself, and most of the time your spell dcs will not matter, but your ac will also matter less. So it's a trade off between +hit when you are not smiting and feats pre-reqs vs fort and will saves.
Also, I didn't think stat boosting items let you qualify for feats, but I could be wrong.
I would aim for 17 dex, 16 cha, your level 4 stat bump into dex, the rest into cha.
If 7 makes me mentally handicapped and half-blind, then does 14 mean I'm automatically a brain surgeon?
People seriously exaggerate what a low score represents.
No, you need dex to be a brain surgeon as well. Seriously: Yes, I over exaggerated, I know. My point was that it might get in the way of your rollplaying. I should have put it differently.
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Thanks for all the input so far. Keep it coming. As for specific points people have brought up...
I don't want to dump int for a couple of reasons. Role playing is one of them. The extra skill rank is another. Also, paladins get knowledge (religion) as a class skill, and I'm taking a trait to get knowledge (planes) as class, too. Those are both int based, and they're the stats that let me identify undead and evil outsiders which are the best smite targets. I don't want a -2 on my "Should I smite this?" rolls. Granted, that's what detect evil is for, but knowing which evil is most affected by my smites will be handy. Plus, it makes sense from an RP perspective for my paladin to know a lot about the evil she's supposed to smite. I know it's not optimal for combat, but I'm not an uber-optimizer, so I'd rather have some skills and a non-idiot PC. Dumping one stat (wisdom) is enough for me.
I wasn't even considering a mount. No, the divine bond is not one of the reasons I rejected Divine Hunter. It was more about not wanting to give up immunity to fear, charms, and compulsions, along with bonuses to save vs those things for my allies, just to get Precise Shot for free, which was the only reason I ever considered Divine Hunter. Also, Divine Hunter and Oath of Vengeance aren't compatible, and I'd rather take the Oath. I mostly don't want a mount bond because this is for PFS, so a horse just wouldn't fit many places, plus the extra expense (in gold, feats, and skills) to make the mount most effective. I'd rather just go with the simpler and still very useful weapon bond.
Some of the feat suggestions like Power Attack and Fey Foundling are interesting suggestions, but as an archer, I really don't have a ton of feat flexibility, because so many are needed to do archery well. That especially goes for Fey Foundling, which has to be taken at level 1. That doesn't work for me. But thanks for pointing that feat out - I didn't know about it, and I might just use it for another PC some day.
I see the point about ManyShot being too good to skip. Now that I'm looking at it more closely, the archery feat that I may have been over-prioritizing is actually Deadly Aim. With Oath of Vengeance, I'll be able to convert Lay on Hands uses into extra Smite Evil uses, so I'll have 2-5 smites per day right from level 4. Smiting adds just as much extra damage as Deadly Aim, without the penalty to hit, and smiting does other things, too. So Extra Lay on Hands might take precedence over Deadly Aim to be able to Smite more often (or Lay on Hands more often without giving up smites). Of course, Smite + Deadly Aim together is the best option eventually, for tons of extra damage. I can't take Deadly Aim until level 5 anyway, so I'll see how things go at level 4 before deciding on that one.
As for dex vs cha, I think again it comes down to being able to smite a lot with Oath of Vengeance. When not smiting, dex is more important to hit. Cha still helps a lot with saving throws. My armor will limit my dex bonus to AC either way, but the cha bonus to AC while smiting isn't limited that way. That's why I'm thinking cha over dex. I'll smite often enough to make it worth it.
And yes, you can use stat boosting items to qualify for feats. I know I've read that in one of the FAQ or discussion threads around here somewhere, but don't ask me where. So starting with a 15 dex will be good enough to get ManyShot, since I'll be able to afford a +2 dex belt before I could take the feat at level 7, anyway.
So now I'm considering going only 12 str to be able to afford both 15 dex and 19 cha without dumping int. I know it'll lower my damage on every hit over my lifetime by 1 HP, but I have to weigh that against qualifying for ManyShot at level 7, and being able to boost cha to 20 at level 4 naturally for an extra saving throw bonus, more spells, better spell DCs (though I don't know if that matters with the types of spells paladins usually cast), and one more Lay on Hands per day, instead of waiting until level 8 for that next even cha boost.
Playing around with stat arrays, I've come up with these possibilities:
(Edit: The columns didn't format well, so retyping in rows)
Str 14, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 7, Cha 18
Str 12, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 7, Cha 19
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 7, Cha 17
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 7, Cha 18
I think I'm leaning towards that 2nd or 4th rows - giving up Str to focus on dex and cha. I'd consider lowering con to 10 if it would help, but str, dex, and cha all need at least 3 points to make a difference, so the 2 points between 10 and 12 aren't enough to matter. So I may as well take the HP, despite not being on the front line.
As for feat progression:
1 - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
3 - Rapid Shot
5 - Deadly Aim (probably, but maybe Extra Lay on Hands if I just want to smite and/or heal more often)
7 - ManyShot
9 - ??? (maybe Extra Lay on Hands or Defiant Luck, but this is where I might be open to suggestions)
11 - Improved Precise Shot
Depending on how many encounters per day you have it may be better to take Extra Lay on Hands at level 5, Deadly Aim is nice but Smite is better.
Personally I still like fey foundling on an archer paladin due to shield other, but YMMV.
Regardless you'll be a holy terror VS anything you can smite.
lol when i read the title to this post i immediately thought 'well you see, when a mommy paladin and daddy paladin love each other...'
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Various pieces of advice:
* Sack wisdom hard. I see you've already done this. Good job.
* Don't dump your CON -- you never want to be in the position of two crits in the same round killing you (and this will happen more often than you'd think possible in the upper tiers once you're tangling with multi-attack monsters full time).
* The 15,14,14,14,12,07 array is your friend: use it and abuse it. The 15 becomes a racial 17 becomes an 18 at 4th becomes a 20 with an item at 5th.
* You don't need bow feats as a paladin -- let your level bonuses to smite do the damage work for you.
* Lay on Hands is the best damage soak in the game: a paladin tanking up to make the monsters waste their time on him drastically reduces party consumable expenses (and running out of these causes TPKs in PFS).
* Don't be afraid to play a halfling or other small CHA race.
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20pt gnome
STR-12
DEX:14
CON+14
INT:14
WIS:07
CHA+17
01 Fey Foundling
...equipment starting second PFS scenario: riding dog, small four-mirror armor, lance, MW shortbow, scimitar, weapon cords
03 Mounted Combat
05 Indomitable Mount
...make friends with an ornery badger.
What does Divine Hunter give up that you feel you are missing out on?
Heavy Armor doesn't matter because you will be rocking a super high DEX.
Aura of Courage is definitely not as good as Shared Precision.
Ranged Healing on your allies is definitely worth a mercy.
Aura of care is slightly less useful than aura of resolve, but by the time it happens I highly doubt you'll miss it much.
A human divine hunter can get almost all of the archery feats done as fast as a ranger can.
Also I disagree with Sir Thugsalot. You definitely need Precise Shot, and I would also take Rapid and Many, since the whole point of archery is to get a bunch of attacks without having to move, why would you purposely NOT make it so you can take more attacks?
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What does Divine Hunter give up that you feel you are missing out on? Heavy Armor doesn't matter because you will be rocking a super high DEX.Well, you might only be rocking a moderately high DEX; and Celestial Plate Armor is good up to +6. (If you're a mounted paladin, the movement penalty of heavier armor is less of a concern.)
Aura of Courage is definitely not as good as Shared Precision.Having everybody in your aura range NOT run away from the scary monster is definitely more useful than giving a bunch of melees and SoS casters a ranged-attack bonus. (And any timid archer friend probably wants to be much farther back from the action than 10' anyway.)
Ranged Healing on your allies is definitely worth a mercy.
Alternatively, just Channel (for the same amount of healing costing the same number of LoH conversions and the same standard action) to heal all of your allies within range.
-- And then we get to the BIG Divine Hunter sacrifice: they must forfeit Aura of Justice for Hunter’s Blessing.
Which is lame because Aura of Justice is the best shared boon in the whole game.
Also I disagree with Sir Thugsalot. You definitely need Precise Shot, and I would also take Rapid and Many, since the whole point of archery is to get a bunch of attacks without having to move, why would you purposely NOT make it so you can take more attacks?
A paladin without Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim has the exact same attack bonus shooting into melee as an archer who uses both of them while doing so in the 4th-8th range, and has a higher attack bonus thereafter. A paladin doesn't really need additional attack-bonuses to hit anything he's smiting, and is usually better off melee Power Attacking opponents he can't smite (plants, elementals and constructs tend to have high DR).
Sure: he won't have as many arrow shots in a full-attack, but he's a better paladin overall by not being a one-trick pony. -- This is the biggest problem I have with those guides giving archer paladins a "blue" rating, as they're recommending converting the game's sturdiest melee class into a cowardly back-ranker overly invested in a single tactic done better by rangers, archetype fighters and Zen or Sohei monk archers. (It wouldn't be so bad if Divine Hunters got some free feats, but they get nothing beyond the 1st-level Scoobysnack. Hell, even samurai get Mounted Archery for free.)
"Dammit, Sir! You are a paladin! Quit babying those d10s and get in there!"
Divine Hunter's best utility is as a dipping class, e.g., the charismatic, kind-hearted halfling rogue who receives Erastil's blessing over two levels for some hefty bonuses.
What does Divine Hunter give up that you feel you are missing out on? Heavy Armor doesn't matter because you will be rocking a super high DEX.Well, you might only be rocking a moderately high DEX; and Celestial Plate Armor is good up to +6. (If you're a mounted paladin, the movement penalty of heavier armor is less of a concern.)Aura of Courage is definitely not as good as Shared Precision.Having everybody in your aura range NOT run away from the scary monster is definitely more useful than giving a bunch of melees and SoS casters a ranged-attack bonus. (And any timid archer friend probably wants to be much farther back from the action than 10' anyway.)Ranged Healing on your allies is definitely worth a mercy.Alternatively, just Channel (for the same amount of healing costing the same number of LoH conversions and the same standard action) to heal all of your allies within range.
-- And then we get to the BIG Divine Hunter sacrifice: they must forfeit Aura of Justice for Hunter’s Blessing.
Which is lame because Aura of Justice is the best shared boon in the whole game.
Also I disagree with Sir Thugsalot. You definitely need Precise Shot, and I would also take Rapid and Many, since the whole point of archery is to get a bunch of attacks without having to move, why would you purposely NOT make it so you can take more attacks?A paladin without Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim has the exact same attack bonus shooting into melee as an archer who uses both of them while doing so in the 4th-8th range, and has a higher attack bonus thereafter. A paladin doesn't really need additional attack-bonuses to hit anything he's smiting, and is usually better off melee Power Attacking opponents he can't smite (plants, elementals and constructs tend to have high DR).
Sure: he won't have as many arrow shots in a full-attack, but he's a better paladin overall by not being a one-trick pony. -- This is the biggest problem...
This is an opinion I do not share. The paladin dedicating himself to archery and becoming the turret/cannon is more of a force to be reckoned with than a dedicated ranger or fighter.
If this is for PFS I'm pretty sure worrying about 11th level abilities really shouldn't be at the top of the priority list. You can make a divine hunter who is as effective at 1st level as a fighter build, which is impressive. Precise Shot is a must, and getting it for free and not losing out on anything because heavy armor doesn't matter is still really good, considering most of the character's mileage will come from the earlier and mid levels.
Take Extra Lay on Hands whenever possible, especially as an Oath of Vengeance Paladin. They'll power you offense AND your defense.
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The paladin dedicating himself to archery and becoming the turret/cannon is more of a force to be reckoned with than a dedicated ranger or fighter.
Only if he's smiting -- and I would expect every paladin to easily slay evil anyway.
In a party which is already tank-heavy, it's not a problem. But when you're mustering a PFS table without any available tanks at the tier set, it's just another role the unflexible one-trick-pony can't do. In home game, you strut versus evil and whine versus constructs (and everybody gets sick of it, yourself included) -- a ranger at least has Instant Enemy, and the guys with Weapon Training are good to go on anything, but what has the pally archer have to bring against nasty, DR-heavy, non-evil opponents besides the same Deadly Aim all the other archery builds also take?
Sure, if he has the Dangerously Curious trait he could UMD his own twinky bow to apply bane damage against the wrong targets...maybe that works(?) ...If his god doesn't mind the duplicity. (Hah. Try it.)
Meanwhile he's standing away from the fray with an untapped 200-point "sink" of HP+LoH while other PCs are being savagely mauled, plinking away like a fop bard instead of getting in their like a hero and eating hits for the team.
(I had a halfling rogue(dip)/paladin w/archery feats; I slowly discovered that his most effective roll in the party was choke-point tanking -- because he had high AC and could eat more damage than the barbarian. In the end, archery became an opener before the enemy closed.)
I'd keep DEX as my first stat for every dedicated archer, even for a paladin. That is even before considering manyshot, which you simply must take no matter what.
If 7 makes me mentally handicapped and half-blind, then does 14 mean I'm automatically a brain surgeon?
People seriously exaggerate what a low score represents.
Actually, if you consider intelligence score as IQ/10, a 7 would represent a mild mental retard and 14 would qualified as "gifted".
That said, you can be a brain surgeon with an IQ a lot lower than 140 by studying a lot and you may not manage to become one even with an IQ of 160 (which is exceedingly rare) if you do not study hard enough.|
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personally, I never liked the archadin much, fluff wise, or mechanically.
Nothing is more epic than the badass paladin going toe-to-toe with evil and promptly kicking evils face down its throat.
that aside, have you considered being melee? damage from full attacks comes out a good bit higher on melee than ranged, even more so if two-handing. anyway.
have you looked at the holy gun archetype? They don't use a bow but you can get some great stuff going with them.
on to the matter at hand.
Dex<=Cha<Str<con<Int<wis this is actually a case of, halfing works well, but you already said your set on human.
feats would be something like
1-pont blank shot, precise shot
3- deadly aim
5-(I am hesitant to take rapid shot, as you are already stacking on penalties to hit...)
7- Many Shot
9- toss up, I like clustered shots, but if they are evil this feat is null. (now, what happens if its a construct?) IMO, take clustered shots.
11- IPS. def.
onto the ability scores.
20= genius (Einstein level imo)
18= great mind
16= gifted
14= A student, not nessicarlly "gifted"
7= C student that has to work at it.
5= mental handicap
3= broken speech, think cave-man status.
personally, I never liked the archadin much, fluff wise, or mechanically.
Nothing is more epic than the badass paladin going toe-to-toe with evil and promptly kicking evils face down its throat.that aside, have you considered being melee? damage from full attacks comes out a good bit higher on melee than ranged, even more so if two-handing. anyway.
He said in his OP that the archer was non negotiable.
on to the matter at hand.
Dex<=Cha<Str<con<Int<wis this is actually a case of, halfing works well, but you already said your set on human.feats would be something like
1-pont blank shot, precise shot
3- deadly aim
5-(I am hesitant to take rapid shot, as you are already stacking on penalties to hit...)
7- Many Shot
9- toss up, I like clustered shots, but if they are evil this feat is null. (now, what happens if its a construct?) IMO, take clustered shots.
11- IPS. def.
Divine Hunter lets him get precise shot at lvl 1 for free. Aura of Justice is an end game ability and it's really the only thing I'd miss by taking the archetype. You can get Point Blank, Precise, and Deadly Aim all at lvl 1. Hell, you could even take Weapon Focus if you wanted to. Divine Hunter is the optimal choice.
onto the ability scores.
20= genius (Einstein level imo)
18= great mind
16= gifted
14= A student, not nessicarlly "gifted"
7= C student that has to work at it.
5= mental handicap
3= broken speech, think cave-man status.
This I pretty much think is spot on.
Having everybody in your aura range NOT run away from the scary monster is definitely more useful than giving a bunch of melees and SoS casters a ranged-attack bonus. (And any timid archer friend probably wants to be much farther back from the action than 10' anyway.)
Why is the Divine Hunter only 10' away from his target? As long as he's within 30' he's in PBS range (if he takes it, he gets Precise for free, so he doesn't have to take it) Are you thinking he needs to give that to the melee? My Divine Hunter stands back with the spellcasters for the bonus to them for Precise shot. Heck, my wizard would love a divine hunter in the party.
Now, I am not saying you are wrong. The divine hunter may give up too much for a few things. And the nice thing is, an archer paladin isn't as MAD as the melee pally. He can just leave Con at 10 and soak up the goodness of the D10.
I agree with those who identify Divine Hunter as a better fit for your plan, but either way.
Regarding the dumping of Strength, one option that may seem a bit off but possibly loads of fun, is to use a heavy repeating crossbow. Combine it with DH weapon bond and apply Distance, and you become a pretty cool turret. You just need to be strong enough to hold the thing. Drop Strength to 10 and spread the wealth elsewhere. Haste and Gravity Bow are naturals here, of course. It requires an Exotic Weapon Proficiency, so a normal heavy crossbow with the Crossbow Mastery feat instead may be preferable. Not claiming this is the "best," just viable and not yet mentioned.
A couple of things to consider:
The oaths are nice, but you don't have to choose them when you make your character. The book says you simply need to make a sacred promise to your god to gain the benefits of an oath. Making a sacred promise is a free action that you can perform during someone else's turn. Make the promise specific to the task at hand, then drop that oath once you've completed the promise.
Encounter a dragon? promise your god not to give up until the dragon is dead, and pick up the oath against the wyrm. Once the dragon's dead, the oath is over, and you are free to take another oath when needed.
Another issue is constitution and hit points. If you take the greater mercy feat, it allows you to add an additional 1d6 to your lay on hands ability if the target (and this includes you) doesn't need a mercy. Memorizing the heroic defiance spell allows you to use your lay on hands ability with an additional 1d6 if you drop below 0 hit points. With both the feat and the spell, a 10th level paladin gets 7d6 healing as an immediate action if he or she drops to 0 hit points. If you can fit the fey foundling feat in there, too, that's an average of almost 40 HP healed when you hit 0. A cushion like that can allow for a pretty low constitution if you want to boost other stats.
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Having everybody in your aura range NOT run away from the scary monster is definitely more useful than giving a bunch of melees and SoS casters a ranged-attack bonus. (And any timid archer friend probably wants to be much farther back from the action than 10' anyway.)Why is the Divine Hunter only 10' away from his target?
As I was talking about auras there, I was referring to distance from allies. -- It is easier for a melee paladin to remain near the center of the party formation than someone plinking from the rear.
also, one thing that is a MUST imo on ANY paladin, Fey foundling- at level 1 its meh, heals 1d6+2. but at 12, you can be healing 30-40 per round.
Exactly, which is why paladin is a wasted chassis for an archer -- they are made the role of getting their heads constantly caved in, more so than any other class in the game.