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What is to keep a fighter from switching out his armor proficiency bonus feats?
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.
Special: All characters except [various classes] automatically have [this] Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select it.
Clearly, fighters don't just get proficiency in armor, they get the actual feats as bonus feats, and their class ability specifically states that they can switch out their bonus feats for others with few limitations.
Is this the secret to making a better swashbuckling duelist? You trade out your heavier armors for more feats?
Good catch Ravingdork, I'd never paid attention to that facet of the Fighter.
The only thing I can think of would be how you define "bonus feat" in this context -- is it any bonus feat whatsoever, or only a bonus feat acquired through the fighter's bonus feat class feature? For example, would a human be able to swap out his racial bonus feat? Would a fighter/monk be able to swap out a bonus feat received as a monk? If the answer to both of these questions is "No", then it should be the same for bonus feats granted through a class's armor and weapon proficiencies.
Given that fighters are proficient with all martial weapons, if we do not limit the bonus feat swapping to bonus feats acquired through the fighter class feature, the logical thing for any fighter to do would be to give up Martial Weapon Proficiency for a weapon that he never uses at every feat swapping opportunity. That is clearly not an intended result.
Thank you for that catch, as a GM I will be using it in my game and a low my players to do the same.
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I don't think I'd allow it, if just because if you allowed swapping out armor proficiency, you could logically make the same claim for weapon proficiency, and since the weapon proficiency feats apply to only one weapon, you could just toss out the weapons you don't like or are never gonna use to give yourself even more feats for absolutely no impact to your character whatsoever.
That said, Fighters get more than enough feats as is, and if you have a build that requires more than 21 feats (min 2 from 1st level + 19) to pull off, perhaps you need to start looking at other classes or a different build.
Are they granted by the bonus feats class feature?
Given that fighters are proficient with all martial weapons, if we do not limit the bonus feat swapping to bonus feats acquired through the fighter class feature, the logical thing for any fighter to do would be to give up Martial Weapon Proficiency for a weapon that he never uses at every feat swapping opportunity. That is clearly not an intended result.
That would not work as fighters gain weapon proficiencies, not the weapon proficiency feats themselves. The same is not true of armor proficiency feats, which make it clear that the fighter gains them as fighter bonus feats.
Are they granted by the bonus feats class feature?
They are most definitely fighter bonus feats. They are even labeled as combat feats, which is typically only done for the purposes of determining whether something qualifies as a fighter bonus feat.
Any feat designated as a combat feat can be selected as a fighter's bonus feat. This designation does not restrict characters of other classes from selecting these feats, assuming that they meet the prerequisites.
They are most definitely fighter bonus feats. They are even labeled as combat feats, which is typically only done for the purposes of determining whether something qualifies as a fighter bonus feat.
Any feat designated as a combat feat can be selected as a fighter's bonus feat.
That says they can be selected as fighter bonus feats. That doesn't mean they are fighter bonus feats. Combat feats are eligible to be fighter bonus feats.
If a level 1 Elf Fighter selects Blind-Fight as his 1st-level feat, and Combat Reflexes as his fighter bonus feat, they are not both bonus feats, even though they are both combat feats and are thus eligible to be chosen as fighter bonus feats.
If the "bonus feats" referred to in the fighter "Bonus Feats" class feature do not explicitly mean the feats granted by that class feature, then they apply globally to all bonus feats. That means every bonus feat he ever gets must be selected from those listed as combat feats, even if he multiclasses into sorcerer and gets a bloodline bonus feat.
That obviously is not the case.
Realistically, I don't see why not. I don't see giving fighters 2 more feats by level 8 really breaking them...
It's probably not RAI tho!
Realistically, I don't see why not. I don't see giving fighters 2 more feats by level 8 really breaking them...
What's more, giving up one's armor and/or shield proficiencies can be a big deal. It can really limit your overall AC, even with things like armor training.
What about when you reach 8th level fighter with 2 bonus feats and then dip 1 level out to pick that armor back up, (or more with shield proficiency but realistically how long will you wait without the armor)
I'm failing to see how this is a concern. Level dips are usually advantageous like that.
EDIT: For example, I could be a TWF fighter, then dump my two-weapon fighting feat immediately prior to taking a level of ranger and getting it back again. This is perfectly RAW and RAI.
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Don't some Arcetypes already do this? The Lore Warden for example loses medium & heavy armor proficiency and gains Combat Expertise.
Granted, these "swaps" do not happen for each other (combat expertise replaces bravery), but the net result is an exchange of feats...
So while this may not be RAI, I think there is an official example from Paizo that suggests the idea is not game breaking.
I don't think I'd allow it, if just because if you allowed swapping out armor proficiency, you could logically make the same claim for weapon proficiency, and since the weapon proficiency feats apply to only one weapon, you could just toss out the weapons you don't like or are never gonna use to give yourself even more feats for absolutely no impact to your character whatsoever.
If you look at the Feat entries for weapon Prof's you'll see that they do not use the term "bonus feats" as they do in the Tower shield/shield & armour entries.
I don't think I'd allow it, if just because if you allowed swapping out armor proficiency, you could logically make the same claim for weapon proficiency, and since the weapon proficiency feats apply to only one weapon, you could just toss out the weapons you don't like or are never gonna use to give yourself even more feats for absolutely no impact to your character whatsoever.
That said, Fighters get more than enough feats as is, and if you have a build that requires more than 21 feats (min 2 from 1st level + 19) to pull off, perhaps you need to start looking at other classes or a different build.
I think this is a valid point.
PRD and CRB:
Class Features
The following are class features of the fighter.Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).
Where does it say armour is a bonus feat??
In the Armor feats Special line. I do not think this is RAI at all.
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There is a difference between the bonus Armor Proficiency feats gained by the Fighter, and the feats gained by the Fighter through his Fighter Bonus Feats Class feature.
Now, it may seem that a bonus feat is a bonus feat, but there is a important difference here.
The feats gained through the Fighter Bonus Feat Class feature can be retrained.
They are the only ones that can be retrained.
There is a difference between the bonus Armor Proficiency feats gained by the Fighter, and the feats gained by the Fighter through his Fighter Bonus Feats Class feature.
Now, it may seem that a bonus feat is a bonus feat, but there is a important difference here.
The feats gained through the Fighter Bonus Feat Class feature can be retrained.
They are the only ones that can be retrained.
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.
As you can plainly see, aside from a few prerequisite restrictions, there is absolutely nothing in this class ability that limits which bonus feats can be retrained.
It may not be RAI (debatable), but as written, it is most certainly the RAW, currently.
In any case, it makes sense to me. Fighters have always been the undisputed masters of feat versatility. This new revelation changes nothing if it proves to be true.
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you could never swap out weapon and armor Proficiency as a bonus feat because it is not a feat. It is just proficiency. No where in the txt does it say you have the Simple weapon feat or Martial weapon feat.
Grab your CRB. flip it open to the feats section and read the armour proficiency feats. They say;
You are skilled at wearing heavy armor.
Prerequisites: Light Armor Proficiency, Medium Armor Proficiency.
Benefit: See Armor Proficiency, Light.
Normal: See Armor Proficiency, Light.
Special: Fighters and paladins automatically have Heavy Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select it.
The special part is what's important to this thread.
you could never swap out weapon and armor Proficiency as a bonus feat because it is not a feat. It is just proficiency. No where in the txt does it say you have the Simple weapon feat or Martial weapon feat.
you are just granted the ability to use said list of weapons with out penalty.
"Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with
all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy,
light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields). " I don't see the word feat any where in that.The reason the feat exist, is to give those not Proficient the chance to gain Proficiency. Similar to how flat footed and deny dex are two different things. Proficiency and the Martial Weapon Proficiency Feat are two different things.
IF you going by RAW. Since we are talking RAW you could retrain other bonus feat. RAI we all know this is meant to be the fighter bonus feats received at level 1+2 and every even level.
That's what I used to think too, until another poster by the name of "Are" showed me the truth of it. Reread the OP. It clearly shows that certain classes grant the actual armor proficiency feats (and also the shield and tower shield proficiency feats), not just the proficiencies. This does not appear to also be true of weapon proficiencies, however.
If you're too lazy for that, here it is again:
Special: Fighters and paladins automatically have Heavy Armor Proficiency . They need not select it.
Special: All characters except monks, sorcerers, and wizards automatically have Light Armor Proficiency . They need not select it.
Special: Barbarians, clerics, druids, fighters, paladins, and rangers automatically have Medium Armor Proficiency . They need not select it.
Special: Barbarians, bards, clerics, druids, fighters, paladins, and rangers all automatically have Shield Proficiency . They need not select it.
Special: Fighters automatically have Tower Shield Proficiency . They need not select it.
Though, with the relaxed wording used for retraining bonus feats, could one not argue that this could allow for the retraining of any bonus feat, even those obtained from dips into other classes? I'm not absolutely certain this is particularly abusable or worth doing, but as a thought I can't help but wonder. Of course, I certainly don't see this as being in line with what was intended, and can only hope that this line of inquiry helps to point out the absurdity of following what was written to its logical extremes.
Though, with the relaxed wording used for retraining bonus feats, could one not argue that this could allow for the retraining of any bonus feat, even those obtained from dips into other classes? I'm not absolutely certain this is particularly abusable or worth doing, but as a thought I can't help but wonder. Of course, I certainly don't see this as being in line with what was intended, and can only hope that this line of inquiry helps to point out the absurdity of following what was written to its logical extremes.
I submit that it is entirely possible that this was RAI. After all, fighters are commonly known as the undisputed master of feats, as I said above. It makes perfect sense that they can do things with feats that no one else can. It's what they are known for.
Though, with the relaxed wording used for retraining bonus feats, could one not argue that this could allow for the retraining of any bonus feat, even those obtained from dips into other classes? I'm not absolutely certain this is particularly abusable or worth doing, but as a thought I can't help but wonder. Of course, I certainly don't see this as being in line with what was intended, and can only hope that this line of inquiry helps to point out the absurdity of following what was written to its logical extremes.
On that note. A 1st Level Fighter 3rd Level Whatever could retain his feats. The text does not say 4th level fighter, just 4th level. Not RAI IMO.
I submit that it is entirely possible that this was RAI. After all, fighters are commonly known as the undisputed master of feats, as I said above. It makes perfect sense that they can do things with feats that no one else can. It's what they are known for.
I concede that I am certainly in no position to surmise the RAI, and cannot argue against your point in a logical fashion. Taking a step back, though, I can say that such an interpretation goes against my personal beliefs in how said ability should function. I again must concede with such imprecise language that said interpretation certainly valid, even if disliked.
Even I have some doubt, Indrajit.
That's what I used to think too, until another poster by the name of "Are" showed me the truth of it.
I would appreciate it if you didn't implicate me as being in favor of this interpretation, considering I pointed this out for a very different purpose, and with the exact opposite idea in mind.
For the record: I believe the only bonus feats a fighter can retrain are the feats gained through the "Bonus Feats" class feature, just like the only spells known a sorcerer can retrain are the spells gained through the "Spells" class feature.
You can't use that class feature to retrain the human bonus feat or the armor proficiency feats, just like you can't use the sorcerer's class feature to retrain your bloodline spells or spell known from another class.
I'm in the 'no' camp.
"At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement"
I posit that the Armour 'bonus feat' was from his 'normal advancement' to level 1 fighter.
"The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability".
Suggesting that not all 'bonus feats' are up for grabs anyhow.
Nicos, I reckon they could possibly do something for Fighters like the Cav archetype that cashes out the Heavy Armour for a different ability perhaps.
Sorry, Are, I did not mean to intone that you were for or against it, only that you showed me the rules quotes under the proficiency feats.
Okay :)
(I probably sound a bit harsher than intended in my post too..)
The implications to a multiclass character could be very interesting.
My 1st level Inquisitor gains a level and decides to go fighter. Likes to run around in heavy armor. When he hits Inq1/Ftr4, he should be able to swap out the Light Armor Prof he gained from Fighter since he already has it from his Inq level?
Would mean a 4 level fighter dip could net this character 4 combat feats instead of the normal three....not too powerful but pretty nice!
To me, this is pretty obviously not the intent of the rules. Yes, you could make this interpretation, with some whacky bending of the written word, but I think it's pretty clear the intent is just for the fighter to be able to swap out the bonus combat feats he gains under the Bonus Feats fighter class feature for feats he didn't qualify for at earlier levels.
I suppose, to determine if this is truly a “bad” thing, we should determine if this interpretation opens up a line of abuse. Unless I am mistaken, the only fighters who would go this route are those that would eschew heavier armors in their entirety (if not armor completely). What one can typically surmise about these builds is that they are likely to have a higher dependence on stat based AC (dex, outside of corner cases). Then are these not the same fighters who are likely to acquire weapon finesse? Certainly it is not a guarantee, but I would posit that this situation is far more likely. Is the trade off of heavier armor for weapon finesse such an issue?
Regardless, I wonder just how far this line of interpretation could be pushed. Whilst I am initially apprehensive at giving fighters even more feats, I wonder if this would even be an issue in the long run.
I don't think this is too terribly OP, or anything like that. Heck, I think I've allowed people to swap out armor proficiencies at character creation just 'cause they asked. I just think it's clearly not what the class feature was intended for.