The Bigotry of Height


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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The Exchange

Human Height has a Range of 21.5 inches (Smallest Man was 1'9.5") to 107 inches (tallest man in the world was 8'11"). Unfortunately Humans in the RPG are never shorter than a Dwarf, and never taller than a Troll.

So the Realistic Human Height Generator would be about 17d6+5 (for a 22 inch-107 inch range).
It has ramifications: If the Average human height for this reality is 5'4" then that would be Seth Green at 5'4" (Kim Jong Il is 1 inch shorter than this average at 5'3"). it also means that the reason most of the Human populace are taller than 5'4" is because we have killed off short people through thousands of years of eugenics.

Source: Link


How high is a dingo?

The Exchange

Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
How high is a dingo?

This dingo is a freakish 6'3" (one inch shorter than Dolph Lundgren).

The Exchange

The reason we have 'elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Trolls, Giants, ogres' is because we ostracized Humans who differ greatly from the Acceptable Average Human.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

yellowdingo wrote:
Unfortunately Humans in the RPG are never shorter than a Dwarf, and never taller than a Troll.

I should say not! Since a troll in Pathfinder is generally about 14 feet tall.

The Exchange

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So the next D&D character you roll up - I want to see 17d6+5 used as the Generator for height. And if you fall in the Height Range for Halflings - you hang out with Halflings.

The Actor who played Mini-Me is two inches shorter than the shortest halfling. Now you know why he is Evil and Angry. He Gets bullied by Halflings.


James Jacobs wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:
Unfortunately Humans in the RPG are never shorter than a Dwarf, and never taller than a Troll.
I should say not! Since a troll in Pathfinder is generally about 14 feet tall.

James, is that for a troll that can be convinced to stand up straight?

The Exchange

James Jacobs wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:
Unfortunately Humans in the RPG are never shorter than a Dwarf, and never taller than a Troll.
I should say not! Since a troll in Pathfinder is generally about 14 feet tall.

But that troll is just over twice the height of Dolph Lundgren: An exaggeration of the Realistic Difference of a 7 foot tall guy going up against a 3' tall guy. A Story told and retold until the guy telling it is 7 feet tall and the disparity of the foe is 14 feet.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Abyssian wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:
Unfortunately Humans in the RPG are never shorter than a Dwarf, and never taller than a Troll.
I should say not! Since a troll in Pathfinder is generally about 14 feet tall.
James, is that for a troll that can be convinced to stand up straight?

Yup. Which it most certainly will to vex a dingo of any color.

The Exchange

So anyway, Roll up your new character and use 17d6+5 inches for height. If you qualify as a particular Non-Human Race (based on Height) then that is the Group you are outcast from Human Groups with.

The Exchange

James Jacobs wrote:
Abyssian wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:
Unfortunately Humans in the RPG are never shorter than a Dwarf, and never taller than a Troll.
I should say not! Since a troll in Pathfinder is generally about 14 feet tall.
James, is that for a troll that can be convinced to stand up straight?
Yup. Which it most certainly will to vex a dingo of any color.

The Jelly from every human eyeball we eat in childhood adds an inch to our height as adults.


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Clearly, Pathfinder needs more angry midgets.

Jubal Early wrote:
You know, with the exception of one deadly and unpredictable midget, this girl is the smallest cargo I've ever had to transport. Yet by far the most troublesome. Does that seem right to you?


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Haha, now I can't help but picture a giant green guy lumbering around the outback looking for dingos to confuse by suddenly standing up like dear old mama troll used to tell him!


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Heh... I don't think I've ever used the height generation table. I just decided it and said something like "my character is 6'1 tall" or whatever. Noone ever complained.

Is there any mechanical effect to a character's height (and weight)?

The Exchange

Lemmy wrote:

Heh... I don't think I've ever used the height generation table. I just decided said something like "my character is 6'1 tall" or whatever. Noone ever complained.

Is there any mechanical effect to a character's height (and weight)?

Table 8–3: Random Height and Weight

Race Base Height Height Modifier Base Weight Weight Modifier
Human, male 4 ft.–10 in. +2d10 in. 120 lb. × (2d4) lb.
Human, female 4 ft.–5 in. +2d10 in. 85 lb. × (2d4) lb.
Dwarf, male 3 ft.–9 in. +2d4 in. 150 lb. × (2d6) lb.
Dwarf, female 3 ft.–7 in. +2d4 in. 120 lb. × (2d6) lb.
Elf, male 5 ft.–2 in. +2d8 in. 100 lb. × (1d6) lb.
Elf, female 5 ft.–2 in. +2d6 in. 90 lb. × (1d6) lb.
Gnome, male 3 ft.–0 in. +2d4 in. 35 lb. × 1 lb.
Gnome, female 2 ft.–10 in. +2d4 in. 30 lb. × 1 lb.
Half-elf, male 5 ft.–0 in. +2d8 in. 110 lb. × (2d4) lb.
Half-elf, female 4 ft.–10 in. +2d8 in. 90 lb. × (2d4) lb.
Half-orc, male 4 ft.–10 in. +2d12 in. 150 lb. × (2d6) lb.
Half-orc, female 4 ft.–5 in. +2d12 in. 110 lb. × (2d6) lb.
Halfling, male 2 ft.–8 in. +2d4 in. 30 lb. × 1 lb.
Halfling, female 2 ft.–6 in. +2d4 in. 25 lb. × 1 lb.

So in Pathfinder:
Human Males: 5'-6'6"
Human Females: 4'7"-6'1"

The Exchange

James Jacobs wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:
Unfortunately Humans in the RPG are never shorter than a Dwarf, and never taller than a Troll.
I should say not! Since a troll in Pathfinder is generally about 14 feet tall.

As to that Troll: Gigantopitecus blacki was a Giant Ape in China. 10' Tall. Apparently Being a Meat Eater was good for you. So maybe Humans haven't Peaked in height simply because we don't eat right.


seeing as Gigantopithecus' diet consisted primarily of c3 biomass, your statement regarding carnivorous behavior comes up short.

The Exchange

Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
seeing as Gigantopithecus' diet consisted primarily of c3 biomass, your statement regarding carnivorous behavior comes up short.

I hate bamboo...


this is kinda cool; somewhat related.

apparently, somewhere along the line, humans dumped two points of strength for two points of dex (from a fine motor control standpoint).

Chimps use more muscle fibers at the same time; we use less, which means we can thread a needle or pick a lock, but they can rip our arms out of their sockets.

They don't have more muscle mass than us, they just use more at the same time. They lack fine motor control though.

The Exchange

Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:

this is kinda cool; somewhat related.

apparently, somewhere along the line, humans dumped two points of strength for two points of dex (from a fine motor control standpoint).

Chimps use more muscle fibers at the same time; we use less, which means we can thread a needle or pick a lock, but they can rip our arms out of their sockets.

They don't have more muscle mass than us, they just use more at the same time. They lack fine motor control though.

I love that...So humans are increasing Brain Matter down our Spine? Eww! I hate the evolutionary implications of that.


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yellowdingo wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:

this is kinda cool; somewhat related.

apparently, somewhere along the line, humans dumped two points of strength for two points of dex (from a fine motor control standpoint).

Chimps use more muscle fibers at the same time; we use less, which means we can thread a needle or pick a lock, but they can rip our arms out of their sockets.

They don't have more muscle mass than us, they just use more at the same time. They lack fine motor control though.

I love that...So humans are increasing Brain Matter down our Spine? Eww! I hate the evolutionary implications of that.

That way, we can grow more hands all over our body. Imagine the piano concertos of the children of the far flung future.


No morlocks. Only sea urchinelike eloi.

The Exchange

So anyway back to our Human Height Generator:
According to Pathfinder:
Giant Kin
8'11" - Robert Wedlow
8’ 1” – Zhao Liang
7′ 9″ - Radhouane Charbib
7′ 7″ - Gheorghe Muresa
7′ 3” - Sandy Allen (World’s tallest female)
7’ 2” - Richard Kiel
7′ 1″ - Shaquille O’Neal
6’ 9” - Ted Cassidy
6’ 8” - Daniel Cudmore
6’ 7” - James Cromwell

Humans
6' 6" - Penn Jillette
6' 5" - Michael Clarke Duncan
6' 4" - Dolph Lundgren
6'3" - Chalton Heston
6′ 2” - Jim Carrey
6′ 1” - Vin Diesel
6′ 0” - Geena Davis
5′ 11” - George Clooney
5′ 10″ Colin Farrell
5'9" - Kirk Douglas
5′ 8″ Angelina Jolie
5′ 7″ Tom Cruise
5′ 6″ Penélope Cruz
5′ 5″ Jennifer Aniston
5′ 4″ - Seth Green
5’ 3” – Kim Jong Il
5′ 2″ - Paula Abdul
5′ 1″ Janeane Garofalo
5′ 0″ Danny DeVito
4′ 11″ - Lil’ Kim
4′ 9″ Linda Hunt

Too Short to be Human, Too tall to be Dwarf (Half-Dwarf)
4' 8" - Gary Coleman
4' 7" - Peter Dinklage
4′ 6″ - Jason Acuña

Dwarves
4' 3" - Mighty Mike Murga
4’ 2” – Matthew Rollof

Gnomes
3' 7" - Michael J. Anderson
3' 6" - Warwick Davis

To Short to Be Halflings
2' 8" - Verne Troyer
1' 9.5" Chandra Bahadur Dangi


We get it. The random height and weight generation is clearly both broken (because it cannot produce all the height/weight combinations humanity can) and heightist/weightist (because it forces players to fit a culturally normative "ideal" size).

The Exchange

Bearded Ben wrote:
We get it. The random height and weight generation is clearly both broken (because it cannot produce all the height/weight combinations humanity can) and heightist/weightist (because it forces players to fit a culturally normative "ideal" size).

I'm Thinking Vohnkar the Warrior (3'6") will kick ass just as soon as he works out that he is Gnome.


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yellowdingo wrote:

It has ramifications: If the Average human height for this reality is 5'4" then that would be Seth Green at 5'4" (Kim Jong Il is 1 inch shorter than this average at 5'3"). it also means that the reason most of the Human populace are taller than 5'4" is because we have killed off short people through thousands of years of eugenics.

Source: Link

Truly this is the face of oppression and bigotry in modern times: a die-roll that (in my experience) most groups don't even use in a table-top RPG provides a subtle hint that we must perform a genocidal cleansing of short people. If Paizo weren't racists they'd say to roll seventeen dice, so that instead of only some groups using the random height generation, no groups would bother touching it.

In a game where officially some races are inherently evil, this is what you're calling bigotry?

Better strike out the random weight generation, too - it says men can never be 125lbs and women can never be 190lbs. I recommend replacing them both with a roll of 29d4 lbs.

#tw: heightshaming, #tw: erasure, #tw: discrimination against seventeen dice being too many, #tw: fat erasure

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
yellowdingo wrote:

Human Height has a Range of 21.5 inches (Smallest Man was 1'9.5") to 107 inches (tallest man in the world was 8'11"). Unfortunately Humans in the RPG are never shorter than a Dwarf, and never taller than a Troll.

So the Realistic Human Height Generator would be about 17d6+5 (for a 22 inch-107 inch range).

That produces way too many people out of human norm. Out of six billion people alive, 3 are above 8' and none above 8'3", and 2 people below 2'.*

Player character wise, people above 8 foot tall, in real life, often have serious health issues; Robert Wadlow (the 8'11" guy) had trouble standing near the end of his life and his growth contributed to the problems that killed him at 22. Neither of the other two people listed on Wikipedia as being above 8'3" could stand upright, and a number of the other people on that list have serious height-related problems.

In any case, if players want to play an extremely tall or short human, I doubt most DMs would object.

Quote:
it also means that the reason most of the Human populace are taller than 5'4" is because we have killed off short people through thousands of years of eugenics.

No. Height is very dependent on diet; refugee Mayans who grew up in the US grew 4 inches taller then their siblings in Guatemala. Golarion, not having the industrial revolution and food distribution systems of the modern world, is likely to have shorter humans then Earth.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_people and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shortest_people

Dark Archive

I am actually honestly surprised that anyone rolls for height and weight.

Like, why bother when you can just pick an arbitrary number?

The Exchange

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Seranov wrote:

I am actually honestly surprised that anyone rolls for height and weight.

Like, why bother when you can just pick an arbitrary number?

Having to live with random chance exercises your Role Play abilities...rather than dulls them with something you are familiar with.


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yellowdingo wrote:
Seranov wrote:

I am actually honestly surprised that anyone rolls for height and weight.

Like, why bother when you can just pick an arbitrary number?

Having to live with random chance exercises your Role Play abilities...rather than dulls them with something you are familiar with.

Or you use different heights and weights per character or you just don't care and move on?


Or you roll because you enjoy rolling.... or because you are a serial killer who loves to take chances... i suppose it doesnt really matter WHY people use the table, does it..
If i were to change anything i would expand the tables a bit, higher and lower (males 4' 7" - 7' 2), with a large number of d4s rolled to try and bring the numbers as close to average as possible. Anything above or below those numbers arguably require stat adjustments separate from the normal human stat array... i dont think the shortest man in the world could just as easily lift as much weight as an average human, move as quickly as a human (base speed 30'), etc etc. Also maximum lifespan is heavily effected at extremes while still working within the confines of our human anatomy. A gnome may have proportionately smaller organs, but a midget still has a full sized humans organs crammed into a small torso.
There are obviously problems at the other end of our real life scale as well... often such extreme heights are caused by gigantism, not normal bone growth... so enlarged joints in the hands, knees, elbows, etc make all movement/life in general quite painful, as well as difficult. Many with gigantism cant even fully close their hands to make a fist, so holding onto a weapon when it strikes an object would be difficult at best.

Shadow Lodge

Roberta Yang wrote:
#tw: heightshaming, #tw: erasure, #tw: discrimination against seventeen dice being too many, #tw: fat erasure

*slow clap* Well played.


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Roberta Yang wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:

It has ramifications: If the Average human height for this reality is 5'4" then that would be Seth Green at 5'4" (Kim Jong Il is 1 inch shorter than this average at 5'3"). it also means that the reason most of the Human populace are taller than 5'4" is because we have killed off short people through thousands of years of eugenics.

Source: Link

Truly this is the face of oppression and bigotry in modern times: a die-roll that (in my experience) most groups don't even use in a table-top RPG provides a subtle hint that we must perform a genocidal cleansing of short people. If Paizo weren't racists they'd say to roll seventeen dice, so that instead of only some groups using the random height generation, no groups would bother touching it.

In a game where officially some races are inherently evil, this is what you're calling bigotry?

Better strike out the random weight generation, too - it says men can never be 125lbs and women can never be 190lbs. I recommend replacing them both with a roll of 29d4 lbs.

#tw: heightshaming, #tw: erasure, #tw: discrimination against seventeen dice being too many, #tw: fat erasure

Why's it gotta be a prime number? Are you saying no amount of rolls with more than two factors is worthy?

Shadow Lodge

Hey Dingo, I notice you left Elves off your list.

Not complaining, just an observation.


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No reason...

And Elvis was 6'0".


To add two data points:

My Uncle John = 6'8".
My Aunt Nancy = 4'11".

That's almost a mixed marriage between a giant kin and a dwarf. :-)


yellowdingo wrote:
Having to live with random chance exercises your Role Play abilities...rather than dulls them with something you are familiar with.

On a total threadjack, over the past 15 years or so I have come to hold this belief. As a teenager, I thought the idea of rolling random encounters was completely ridiculous. Now in my dotage, I find it keeps me on my toes as a GM and keeps my game from seeming too contrived or repetitive.

Excellent point, Dingo.

... wait did I just say that?


yellowdingo wrote:
Having to live with random chance exercises your Role Play abilities...rather than dulls them with something you are familiar with.

That is one player's opinion. Then there are others who just do not want to play a 2' human when there are other options open to them.


Clearly we need a subset of rules to determine height and weight along with 6 prestige classes, 20 feats, 5 spells, a new domain, and 2 monsters with the theme of height.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Lemmy wrote:
Is there any mechanical effect to a character's height (and weight)?

A character's weight is important primarily for figuring the encumberance of his mount and less often for the transportation of his unconcious self (or sometimes his DB) back to camp.

A characters's height rarely enters into it except in some rare cases of vertical reach. Since the usual granularity of things is five foot increments, that extra couple inches rarely matters.


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OMG. Too much time on so many hands...

:)


But what if someone wants to play a dwarf Dwarf?


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Why are you playing a human? Sounds like you're stuck in a dull rut of always playing something familiar. If you were a real roleplayer you'd roll 74d12 to choose a random race from the ARG and play them instead. And you'd only take levels in Aristocrat because PC classes are overused.

Remember, if you don't do this then you are a bigot and encouraging eugenics.

#tw: racism, #die tall scum, #tw: prime numberism, #why hasnt paizo hired me, #what is roleplaying i honestly have no idea

Contributor

I always like a bit more of a heroic range of heights for characters so I use the old tables from Arduin for character height/weight/build, along with the assorted racial height modifiers.

Of course, this would be easy to do with Pathfinder as well. So you're playing an Ulfen and they're notably taller than the other races listed in the Inner Sea Guide, though there's no specific reference I've seen to how much taller. If you like rolling dice for random height, say that everyone playing an Ulfen adds 2d6 inches to their starting height. This means that the average Ulfen stands about 7 inches taller than your average Taldan, assuming we're assuming Taldans have no modifier beyond the base roll. That way you can have a 7'8" Ulfen barbarian male assuming all the rolls are maxed.

Or you could use a d12, or a d20, or even 2d20 for that village where everyone claims there was a frost giant somewhere back in their ancestry.


Lemmy wrote:


Is there any mechanical effect to a character's height (and weight)?

There is one trait you can't take when you're under 6 ft. large.

Can't remember its name.

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