Ok, one of my players asked me this question.
If an item needs to be master work to be enchanted than doesn't a Hand Haversack also provide the same benefits on top of what it states in the description?
Backpack, Masterwork
Source Adventurer's Armory
This backpack has numerous pockets for storing various items that might be needed while adventuring. Hooks are included for attaching items such as canteens, pouches, other small bags, or even a rolled-up blanket. It has padded bands that strap across the chest and the waist to distribute its weight more evenly. Like a common backpack, it can hold about 2 cubic feet of materials in its main container. When wearing a masterwork backpack, treat your Strength score as +1 higher than normal when calculating your carrying capacity.
Empty Weight: 2 lb.*1 Capacity: 1 cubic ft./60 lb.*1
1 When made for Medium characters. Weighs one-quarter the normal amount when made for Small characters. Weighs twice the normal amount when made for Large characters. Containers carry one-quarter the normal amount when made for Small characters.
Bag, Handy Haversack
Aura moderate conjuration; CL 9th
Slot —; Price 2,000 gp; Weight 5 lbs.
Description
A backpack of this sort appears to be well made, well used, and quite ordinary. It is constructed of finely tanned leather, and the straps have brass hardware and buckles. It has two side pouches, each of which appears large enough to hold about a quart of material. In fact, each is like a bag of holding and can actually hold material of as much as 2 cubic feet in volume or 20 pounds in weight. The large central portion of the pack can contain up to 8 cubic feet or 80 pounds of material. Even when so filled, the backpack always weighs only 5 pounds.
While such storage is useful enough, the pack has an even greater power. When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what a haversack contains. Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action, but it does not provoke the attacks of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does.
Editor's Note: Handy Haversack does not indicate the sort of space inside it other than to say it is "like a bag of holding" which is described as opening to a "non-dimensional space" whereas the rules on extradimensional spaces explicitly refer to bags of holding and handy haversacks as examples of extradimensional spaces.
Construction Requirements
Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest; Cost 1,000 gp
Now I'm inclined to say that as written that the player is wrong it would seem that a Handy Haversack is an enchanted normal pack back. If that's the case I know that the player will then ask how much a masterwork backpack enchanted to be a Handy Haversack would cost, I can figure out that part.....my next question is how do i deal with this player as he seems to make it his life goal to find every small loop hole in the rules and pushes them to the point of breaking.
Weapons, armor, and shields must be masterwork to be enchanted. No other item has that notation, so its not needed.
Now I'm inclined to say that as written that the player is wrong it would seem that a Handy Haversack is an enchanted normal pack back. If that's the case I know that the player will then ask how much a masterwork backpack enchanted to be a Handy Haversack would cost, I can figure out that part.....my next question is how do i deal with this player as he seems to make it his life goal to find every small loop hole in the rules and pushes them to the point of breaking.
Keep in mind that the Handy Haversack has existed for at least 10 years longer than the 'Masterwork Backpack' that is statted up in Adventurer's Armory and Ultimate equipment. While the HH would have to be created from a masterwork backpack/haversack, it is not necessarily created from The Masterwork Backpack.
If you want an analogy, the Masterwork Backpack is like a brand new 4x4 with a limited edition sports package and all the bells and whistles — it might be moderately expensive to your average Joe, but it's still within reach. By comparison, the Handy Haversack is a vintage sedan that just happens to have been outfitted for James Bond — it's something that only adventurer will be able to afford.
Now could you turn that big truck into a James Bond vehicle? Probably. Yet considering the main advantage of The Masterwork Backpack is to make you more effective at carrying the load stored in your pack, I'd rule that the Strength-increasing attribute get superseded and replaced by the Handy Haversack's benefits. Essentially the special conventional engineering used to make the load in the pack easier to bear becomes irrelevant and is wasted on such a perpetually light load.
the thing is the player wants to be able to strap a bunch of extra stuff to the outside of the HH, and use the masterwork backpack bonus to his carrying carrying capacity.
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the thing is the player wants to be able to strap a bunch of extra stuff to the outside of the HH, and use the masterwork backpack bonus to his carrying carrying capacity.
Depending on your style, either
1) Just tell him to stop trying to minimax to that extent2) Say fine, and then make him account for all the weight of his coins, water, food that he has eaten, etc etc etc
3) Say fine, and then have a thief steal all that crap on the outside of his sack. Or a pixie if he is out in the wilderness.
Method 1 is best, of course. Method 3 is probably the most amusing. The fact that it may well cause the munchkin to leave the campaign may or may not be a bonus.
well as this will be munchkin attempt #37 I don't think he is leaving.
I would allow a Handy Haversack to function as a masterwork backpack, provided it was in an anti-magic field or the extra-dimensional space was otherwise unavailable.
Otherwise, you've got the same problem as a masterwork weapon and a magic weapon: both are providing a bonus, but they don't stack. In this case, because the masterwork backpack distributes weight evenly, and the Handy Haversack distributes weight to another dimension.
As to the broader question about the player - you've got to have a talk with him. Explain that such persistent nit-picking of the rules will make everyone else (especially you, the GM, who has to spend a similar amount of effort trying to stay ahead of him) have less fun. Explain how role-playing games are cooperative and the goal is to have as much fun for everyone as possible. Work with him to find ways he can mercilessly exploit the rules without breaking the game for everyone. Twinking for carrying capacity might actually be one of those ways.
Reading this, my brain hurts.