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Hi All,
I recently started playing PFS (5 sessions so far) and the first time I played my character (a unarmed fighter) I focused on being offensive and in one scenario was dropped into the negatives 4 times. I went back to the drawing board and created a more defensive unarmed monk taking the Master of Many Styles and Monk of the Sacred Mountain archetypes. My feats are as follows:
Level 1: Dodge (human), Crane Style, Crane Wing (Monk Bonus)
Level 2: Crane Riposte (Monk Bonus).
The Many Styles allows me to ignore the prereqs for the style feats as long as I have the required overall style (thus Crane Style). Now he can not only ignore one melee attack per round that hits him, he can punch back. Now not only have I not gone into negatives, I haven't been hit. Therein lies the problem and the reason I am here for advice.
The PFS GM I play with is concerned about the inability so far to hit my character. I don't want to ruin the fun for anyone, much less the GM(s) I am now and in the future would play with. Is this character broken? A full-plate wearing Paladin will not only be all around harder to hit, it would do more damage and hit more often. I personally, think the build is fine since it comes with drawbacks (-1 to hit when fighting defensively, which is required when in Crane Style, less damage then pretty much any other type of attack, lower HPs than other front-line fighters), but am I just biased? If it isn't broken but the DM I play with thinks it is what should I do? Any advice is appreciated.
If you are less than level 2 you are allowed to rebuild. Might I offer that as a suggestion?
Sorry, didn't notice the 5 sessions thing. Looks like you are at least temporarily pooched.
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Sorry, didn't notice the 5 sessions thing. Looks like you are at least temporarily pooched.
Yah, he is second level. I don't think I am breaking any rules and since it is PFS I can still play the character, my concern is mostly over perceptions of it being a broken character. If the GM thinks the character is broken, I really don't want to play the character (even though I really like playing him). So I can either address the GM's concerns or stop playing the character or go elsewhere to play him (not really an option).
I have a similar character in a Kingmaker game. I have a Kensai Magus who's AC is through the roof. At first the GM was a little put off, until he realized if he does hit me, it doens't take much to bring him down.
Explain the flaws in your character. He doesn't hit that often or as hard as a fighter, he can only block 1 attack per round.
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Hi Jodokai,
Thanks for the feedback. I sent him an email earlier today that outlined those points, hopefully it is effective. The truth is a monk is far from optimized even when optimized. I can min-max pretty well, but I imagine that if I made a switch-hitting optimized ranger or tank paladin the Gm would be fine with it since it is something most GMs have run into. The auto-block/riposte is a new mechanic and I think it might take getting used to. I think his major concern is that PFS is so inflexible that he feels he won't be able to do anything about it. I feel that as the tiers increase I will be running into a lot more NPCs that have more than one attack per round, or use ranged, or spells which I can't defend as well against.
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What is your AC? Are you sure you aren't stacking bonuses that don't stack? Is the DM playing all monsters as stupid? If they can't hit you, intelligent bad guys should be killing your friends and against you be casting spells, using touch attacks, using ranged attacks from perches you can't reach, turning you against the party, etc., not continuing to swing at the guy they can't hit.
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AC is 18 when in crane style, no incorrectly stacked bonuses. Again it is likely the PFS constraints driving the tactics to some degree rather than a GM flaw on how the NPCs are behaving. I also tend to use the terrain pretty well to bottle neck the baddies so they have to get past me. However, there was a paladin that had 25 AC and was hitting like a truck that didn't cause the stir that my monk who hit much less like a truck made.
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What is your AC? Are you sure you aren't stacking bonuses that don't stack? Is the DM playing all monsters as stupid? If they can't hit you, intelligent bad guys should be killing your friends and against you be casting spells, using touch attacks, using ranged attacks from perches you can't reach, turning you against the party, etc., not continuing to swing at the guy they can't hit.
Also, don't you have to be 5th and 7th level to take those advanced Crane Style feats? That may be it, although I'm no monk expert.
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Also, don't you have to be 5th and 7th level to take those advanced Crane Style feats? That may be it, although I'm no monk expert.
As a Monk of Many Styles you can use your monk bonus feats to take any style feat you have the base style feat for, ignoring all other prereqs. So I used my first level human feat to take dodge, then my first level normal feat for Crane Style, monk bonus at 1st to take Crane Wing and 2nd level bonus to take Crane Riposte.
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AC is 18 when in crane style, no incorrectly stacked bonuses. Again it is likely the PFS constraints driving the tactics to some degree rather than a GM flaw on how the NPCs are behaving. I also tend to use the terrain pretty well to bottle neck the baddies so they have to get past me. However, there was a paladin that had 25 AC and was hitting like a truck that didn't cause the stir that my monk who hit much less like a truck made.
Yeah, AC 18 isn't out of line at all, even with the option to fight defensively at reduced penalties.
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Eh thats kind of the problem with the monk. You are designed to be a fast in and out of combat character, but then you can't flurry. You can flurry and do some damage, but your AC is low and you don't want to stand in melee. It really is a class that is tough to play as a beginner and takes real work to get good with.
If I can offer any suggestion its to use some money and prestige to get 2 things. 1) get a wand of mage armor. Have someone (rogue, caster, you, etc.) put that on your and bump that AC up a tad. 2) get a pearl of power. The pearl of power is for when you have a wizard (or prepared spell caster) in the group that can cast mage armor. This way you get 1 hour/caster level mage armor so the spell will last longer, and if you can get that spell back for that player he won't be so mad and you get a longer lasting mage armor.
Edit: Also, remember that when you get your Acrobatics up to 3 ranks (i think) you can add 1 more to your AC whenever you take a full defensive or fight defensive.
BTW if you can't tell I'm basically telling you to screw that and buff up. The first few levels, 1-4 basically, is a joke. When you hit 5 and higher you need your AC up there or you WILL die in PFS. Your GM isn't supposed to be there to judge your character and tell you that you are having fun wrong. His job is to run the game. As long as you are following the rules he really can't say anything. What does your Venture Captain or whatever say?
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As a Monk of Many Styles you can use your monk bonus feats to take any style feat you have the base style feat for, ignoring all other prereqs. So I used my first level human feat to take dodge, then my first level normal feat for Crane Style, monk bonus at 1st to take Crane Wing and 2nd level bonus to take Crane Riposte.
Also, don't you have to be 5th and 7th level to take those advanced Crane Style feats? That may be it, although I'm no monk expert.
Sorry, I missed that in my quick skim of the rulebook. That is really cool, but still not broken to me. Of course, you have to play with your GM so his view is the one that counts :)
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I try to live by the "Don't be a Jerk" rule when playing Pathfinder. Now what I am having trouble with is that this is for PFS where play will vary a bit by who is GMing. Additionally, the effectiveness of the crane style will vary by scenario and as I move up tiers single attack enemies will become less frequent so the effectiveness of it will decrease over time. What I need to do is convince the GM I usually play with (and perhaps others if they feel the same way) that it is a very effective ability in SOME situations, but comes with corresponding decreases. For example, rather than doing crane style I could have went Dragon Style (which I plan to soon) at level 1 which would have significantly upgraded my damage output.
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That is really cool, but still not broken to me. Of course, you have to play with your GM so his view is the one that counts :)
I agree that his view counts, but really with PFS it is the rules that count more, and I don't think I have violated any. My trick is to get the GM's impressions to line up with what the PFS leadership says is fair or not. I just worry that building a character that is less optimized for defense will get that character rapidly killed at higher tiers. It would be like saying that since I can't hit the full-plate armor wearing paladin at level 1-3 he should start wearing scale. Might make it more exciting at lower levels, but at higher levels that paladin is doomed.
AC 18 at 2nd level isn't that heinous. Also, the following things will still smack you around:
* Ranged attacks - maybe they don't hit, but there's no counter, either
* Ranged touch attacks - Firearms, ray spells, things like that - no worries, you'll get hit by some of these. Everybody does.
* Magic Missile. 100% of the time. Accept no substitutes.
Some modules are going to play to a character's strengths. Some, to weaknesses. I would point this out to said GM, that yes, melee attacks are going to miss this character with some frequency; but there are many things that aren't melee attacks.
AC 18 at 2nd level isn't that heinous. Also, the following things will still smack you around:
* Ranged attacks - maybe they don't hit, but there's no counter, either
* Ranged touch attacks - Firearms, ray spells, things like that - no worries, you'll get hit by some of these. Everybody does.
* Magic Missile. 100% of the time. Accept no substitutes.Some modules are going to play to a character's strengths. Some, to weaknesses. I would point this out to said GM, that yes, melee attacks are going to miss this character with some frequency; but there are many things that aren't melee attacks.
Area-effect attacks are also going to take down high AC characters. How good are your saves? Even if you only take half damage each round, you are still getting pounded.
I also have to disagree with AC 18 being "not that heinous". For a fighter-type or a high-dex rogue, AC 18 is not that difficult at 1st level:
- Dex 14 (+2), Scale Mail (+5, 50gp), and a buckler(+1,5gp) (my 1st level cleric had this)
- Dex 18 (+4), Studded leather (+3, 25gp), Dodge (+1)
After one scenario, my halfling warslinger upgraded her armor and ended up with Dex 16 (+3), Breastplate (+6, 200gp), Defender of the Society (trait, +1 in medium or heavy armor) for a total of 20 AC at first level. Not only was she still "hittable", she was not the highest AC in the party.
YMMV, I guess.
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I will point these things out, but I am worried that if he is thinking my character is already broken what will happen at level 3 when i take a level in fighter (Brawler Archetype) and learn Dragon style and TWF and at level 4 when I have the Fame and gold to buy +1 Mithral Shirt with the Brawler enchantment (+1 to hit and +3 damage to unarmed strike). Then I will have good AC, can deflect one attack, and hit for decent damage (still not equal to the Paladin two-handing power attack for 2d6 +9).
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Area-effect attacks are also going to take down high AC characters. How good are your saves? Even if you only take half damage each round, you are still getting pounded.
I also have to disagree with AC 18 being "not that heinous". For a fighter-type or a high-dex rogue, AC 18 is not that difficult at 1st level:
- Dex 14 (+2), Scale Mail (+5, 50gp), and a buckler(+1,5gp) (my 1st level cleric had this)
- Dex 18 (+4), Studded leather (+3, 25gp), Dodge (+1)After one scenario, my halfling warslinger upgraded her armor and ended up with Dex 16 (+3), Breastplate (+6, 200gp), Defender of the Society (trait, +1 in medium or heavy armor) for a total of 20 AC at first level. Not only was she still "hittable", she was not the highest AC in the party.
YMMV, I guess.
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My saves are decent as a monk, though I traded out evasion as a Monk of the Sacred Mountain for 'Iron Monk" which gives me toughness as a free feat and +1 Natural Armor Bonus. I agree 18 is not very high. At level 3 when I take one level of fighter I will have mithral shirt for another +4 to armor and I will have 3 ranks in acrobatics so I will get another +1 dodge when fighting defensively so:
Level 2 fighting defensively 18 AC, when not fighting defensively 15 AC.
Level 3 fighting defensively 23 AC, when not fighting defensively 19 AC.
Not great but with the Crane Style blocking one melee attack per round somewhat more survivable.
in city of strangers 2 for the 1-2 teir you fight a warrior with a 21 ac that has a cleric built to channel heal him. Fah Your Gm is being silly.
Area-effect attacks are also going to take down high AC characters. How good are your saves? Even if you only take half damage each round, you are still getting pounded.
I also have to disagree with AC 18 being "not that heinous". For a fighter-type or a high-dex rogue, AC 18 is not that difficult at 1st level:
- Dex 14 (+2), Scale Mail (+5, 50gp), and a buckler(+1,5gp) (my 1st level cleric had this)
- Dex 18 (+4), Studded leather (+3, 25gp), Dodge (+1)After one scenario, my halfling warslinger upgraded her armor and ended up with Dex 16 (+3), Breastplate (+6, 200gp), Defender of the Society (trait, +1 in medium or heavy armor) for a total of 20 AC at first level. Not only was she still "hittable", she was not the highest AC in the party.
YMMV, I guess.
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My saves are decent as a monk, though I traded out evasion as a Monk of the Sacred Mountain for 'Iron Monk" which gives me toughness as a free feat and +1 Natural Armor Bonus. I agree 18 is not very high. At level 3 when I take one level of fighter I will have mithral shirt for another +4 to armor and I will have 3 ranks in acrobatics so I will get another +1 dodge when fighting defensively so:
Level 2 fighting defensively 18 AC, when not fighting defensively 15 AC.
Level 3 fighting defensively 23 AC, when not fighting defensively 19 AC.Not great but with the Crane Style blocking one melee attack per round somewhat more survivable.
If you wear any armor, don't you lose the Wisdom bonus to AC?
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If you wear any armor, don't you lose the Wisdom bonus to AC?
You do indeed lose Wisdom to AC as well as flurry of blows in armor. However, my wisdom is 10 and I lose flurry of blows with the Master of Many Styles archetype. I planned all along to take the Brawler fighter archetype after level 2 so my character is not the flowing skillful martial artist type of unarmed fighter (i.e. Monk) but a get in your face smash you in the mouth type of unarmed fighter. What the two monk levels did was gain me initial training in how to fight unarmed, which I then took to become a more rough and tumble warrior.
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The real question is whether or not you're preventing the other characters from playing their game. Are you untouchable and uber powerful so that you single handedly knock out most bad guys before the poor fighter with 2d6+9 cleaves or barbarian raging at 22 strength have a chance to charge? Are you blocking choke points and not letting anyone through, from either side, while whittle away at a room full of bad guys with 1d6+0 at +2 attack?
[snip]
Not sure about how the others felt, though they all got a chance to shine. For example the wizard with +13 to initiative took out the two enemies in one encounter before anyone even acted with scorching ray. Really the low damage my character puts out unarmed he is not going to outshine any dedicated damage dealer. Yes at this moment I may be nearly untouchable but I wouldn't say I am über powerful.
RAW is law in PFS. IF you build a broken charatcer then to heck with the DM if they cry.
I say tatse that DM's tears. Make him cry as you break the mod.
If you feel it is too easy play up. But you character does not seem broken to me.
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I have a quick question about your feat progression (because i love it and might use it). in order to take crane wing as your monk of many styles bonus feat, i assumed that you had to already have dodge and that taking dodge at that level would not count towards the prereq for crane style yet (which you would need to fulfill since you are taking it as your general lvl. 1 feat as opposed to using your many styles bonus feat for it).
please tell me i'm wrong :-)
Only works for human due to the feats. Level 1: Dodge, Crane Style (human bonus), Crane Wing (monk bonus). Level 2: Crane Riposte (monk bonus).
You can take a prerequisite feat at same level as the next feat. For example level 1 fighters often take both power attack and cleave.
AC 18 at 2nd level isn't that heinous.I also have to disagree with AC 18 being "not that heinous". For a fighter-type or a high-dex rogue, AC 18 is not that difficult at 1st level:
We mean the same thing, methinks. By "not that heinous," I meant that it seemed not at all unreasonable or game-breaking by any stretch.
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one more question (again because i'm liking the sound of what you're doing and have been thinking about what kind of unarmed i wanted to try recently).
just a stats question. with the 18 AC, does that mean you're starting with an 18 dex? and if so, i'm just curious as to what you were able to get your strength up to with that.
thanks in advance.
My strength is 19 17 + 2 human bonus
Dex is 16AC is +3 Dex +1 Natural Armor (Monk of Sacred Mountain) +1 dodge for dodge = 15
Then fighting defensively: +1 more dodge (crane style) +2 defensive fighting = 18
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doh. forgot about the +1 while in crane and was just thinking about the advantage to fighting to defensively.
if you have a second, i'd love to hear your thoughts on what drew you to brawler as opposed to unarmed fighter.
thanks.
Brawler is better with straight up unarmed damage. Unarmed fighter is more of a wrestler than a boxer.
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So good news. I heard back from the GM and he told me that his problem was not with my build but with how to challenge him with the restrictions in PFS. I think this is now a non-issue so thanks to everyone for the feedback. I think the advice to communicate with the GM is the best place to start. I likely over read the intent of the initial email, so glad it worked out.
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mind if i pick your brain a little more about unarmed fighting?
i'm just wondering what weapon you plan on using and what feats you'll be looking to pick up.i've never been real clear on what unarmed can use. since there's only the two weapons in the 'unarmed' category, are those the only options to wear to be able to enchant and whatnot? it seems weird that things like brass knuckles wouldn't be useable.
in terms of feats, i'd love to use your starting point and then pick up imp grapple and greater grapple while also looking to just improve my unarmed damage. i guess my questions are, do you think that's feasible, or will it just leave me kind of lame in both areas, and my other would be what feats for unarmed damage are usually focused on (weapon focus, power attack?)?
thanks in advance if you notice this and have the time.
Hi elgabalawi,
I would be happy to discuss this more, but let us do it in the thread where I presented my build found here: Brawler BuildI would suggest using unarmed, which means unarmed strike. Using anything else does not scale with monk levels like unarmed strike does. Have some other weapon to use for those times when you need to penetrate DR.