Time to stop Splat n' Bloat


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The more books the better as long as the quality is good

Dark Archive

Icyshadow wrote:

I think 3.5e should get back to print, and we should all return to it.

Then again, what I think is just that and nothing more. I wish people would listen, though.

It is coming back in print (albeit just a reprint of the core books, if I remember correctly) and I really hope they don't. :-D


Oh yes, I did buy the premium versions of the main 3.5e books.

And I don't care, since you probably don't have good reasons to dislike 3.5e anyway. =P

Liberty's Edge

Pendagast wrote:


well I guess that's my point, industry doesn't work. industry creates bloat. bloat makes me and some others cranky. Cranky people in hindsight poo poo bloat that while it was happening, gleefully supported. Hence my lemming reference.

Fixed that for you. I get that you dislike 3pp support and respect it. Just that your in the minority imo not the majority who imo do lie 3pp. And it is easy to say no. Maybe if your just a novice DM sure. Yet if yiou have trouble still saying no after years of experience well it's not paizo nor 3pp fault if yiu can't say no at the game table.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Not a big fan of lots of splat personally, but I would not want 3PPs to stop making stuff even though I usually do not buy any. There ARE people who like endless supplementary material, and I'm not going to begrudge a company who wants to tap into that market.

At the same time, I make it damned bloody clear that my home games use as little splat material as possible (I use core+APG -- with only 2 classes from APG -- and other Paizo PFRPG materials only on a case by case basis, no 3PP, not even any Pathfinder Chronicles or Companion). As long as players accept that I am not beholden to use a book just because they own it, we're good.

(And mind, I've bought I think nearly all of Paizo's RPG line just because the books are that high quality. And everytime I want to stop my subscription, they announce something else I am certain I must have. I reserve the right not to use the content as I see fit, but I've really enjoyed the books, and there's always at least something I can use. My Paizo collection is starting to exceed my 3.5 collection -- and I think the only reason my 3.5 collection is still slightly bigger is because of books friends bought me. Very few 3.5 books I considered worth paying for. If you told me 7 years ago that I would be collecting all of an RPG line, I'd've told you you were a nutbag.)

Now, on the other subject, I agree that Paizo does not excel at naming things. "Archetype" is too broad ("I want to play a swashbuckler archetype. He's a fighter." "But the swashbuckler archetype belongs to the rogue class." "No, I want to play an archetypal swashbuckler, dude with light blade and a buckler, with some Errol Flynn panache"). "Magus" is actually a word essentially meaning "wizard," meaning it's not fighty enough, and nobody can agree on how to pronounce it. "Alchemist" is confusing because if I have an NPC expert who is an alchemist by trade, by which I mean he has the Craft (Alchemy) skill and makes and sells stuff like alchemist's fire, what the hell do I call him that I do not confuse my players? Are alchemist's fire, alchemist's kindness, etc. restricted to the alchemist class? (I realize some of this is answered by common sense but it's still annoying, and besides, I've learned the hard way not to assume people have common sense.) And so on.

Now, I can't tell if the OP bought a 3PP pdf that used a title of something that was something else in a Paizo product. If that's the case, it's more the 3PP at fault for not choosing more carefully, but as always, sounds like an issue of caveat emptor. I'm sorry it happened but it probably could have been prevented with some research before purchasing. At least it was only a cheap .pdf and maybe it will end up coming in handy someday (even if the OP names it something else :) ).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Icyshadow wrote:

Oh yes, I did buy the premium versions of the main 3.5e books.

And I don't care, since you probably don't have good reasons to dislike 3.5e anyway. =P

Not that you need a reason to dislike something. It just makes it easier for people to understand when you do.

I have the PHB reprint, trying to decide if I want to get the other two. I don't see them as vital.

Dark Archive

Icyshadow wrote:

Oh yes, I did buy the premium versions of the main 3.5e books.

And I don't care, since you probably don't have good reasons to dislike 3.5e anyway. =P

Heh, it's interesting that you automatically assume that I dislike D&D 3.5. Nothing could farther from the truth. Until Pathfinder RPG came along, D&D 3.5 was my system of choice, and I''ll happily play in a D&D 3.5 game.

Unlike you*, though, I think of Pathfinder RPG as an improvement, and ultimately I've had even more fun playing Pathfinder RPG than I did playing D&D 3.5, something I wouldn't have thought possible before Pathfinder RPG actually came out.

*) This is an assumption based on some posts written by you, specifically in the Things We've Learned About Paizo thread. At the end of the day, it's all about having fun, and whether or not that fun is achieved through AD&D 1e, D&D 3.5, Pathfinder, D&D Next, or any other game system really doesn't matter. I hope Pathfinder RPG thrives for many years to come while others would like nothing more than a revisit of other editions of the game. It's all good. :)


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As a publisher, let me talk about bloat.

Stergon's Law applies

Yes there may be something like the Harrowed template (which I think came out before the harrowed oracle, same issue with the magus).

You can avoid buying the 90% bloat by reading product descriptions and reading product reviews before you buy something, its why I publish Pathways for free.

As a publisher I do my very best not to create bloat, we try to create things that are new and different and that Paizo is not doing, and I pay attention to what other 3rd party publishers are doing so I don't duplicate there works.

yet for every harrowed there is a Genius Guide to the Time Thief, for every secrets of the oracle we do there is 1001 Spells.

I am also doing things to avoid doing splat books, I have spent nearly two months now working on 101 Legendary Curses, rather than doing another feats book, our #30 series has moved away from doing standard magical items to doing things like Variant Dragons, Cursed Treasures and Evocative Vehicles, we also have a series of nearly 30 complex npcs of low, mid, and high level with the Faces of the Tarnished Souk Series and we now do Adventure Quarterly, which is as far from splat as you can get.

The only thing that will ultimately stop publishers from making splat books is for people not to buy them. So buy the really niche products :)

Minister of Propaganda, Super Genius Games

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pendagast wrote:

I bought a PDF yesterday called "the harrowed" because I have a player in my party that took "harrowed" as a feat from the CotCT AP, because she wanted to play an oracle that reads cards etc.

But upon buying this product, I realize it has nothing to do with the subject at all instead it's some lame undead that isn't undead creature template.

I haven't read this whole thread yet, but in defense of "The Harrowed", it happens to be the 2nd SGG PDF ever released for Pathfinder and is 3 years old at this point. When I released it (in November 2009) there was no "harrowed" term in Pathfinder yet. :)

Ok, back to thread.

Grand Lodge

@Icyshadow You're ironically and currently breaking a fairly important rule: don't be a jerk.

Having read the thread I have two related thoughts: 1. Don't be afraid of a small player base being upset, you have to enjoy GMing too (and, if you're good, they'll put up with stuff much more eccentric than this; if you're not good, let them GM), 2. Players ought not take their GMs for granted.

Ultimately this is a cheap hobby (I can't enjoy the drinks I buy more than once and hockey gear would cover Paizo's full line and then some 3PP). No one should be getting upset over the production of more stuff, nor over not being able to use certain selections in certain games. More writing is always good because Paizo's standards for their own publications and for third party stuff getting the stamp are fairly transparent. If you want to take on a gatekeeper hat beyond that, well, nothing stands in the GM's way.

Know core inside and out and it's hard not to have a good game, whatever you allow.


R. Hyrum Savage wrote:
Pendagast wrote:

I bought a PDF yesterday called "the harrowed" because I have a player in my party that took "harrowed" as a feat from the CotCT AP, because she wanted to play an oracle that reads cards etc.

But upon buying this product, I realize it has nothing to do with the subject at all instead it's some lame undead that isn't undead creature template.

I haven't read this whole thread yet, but in defense of "The Harrowed", it happens to be the 2nd SGG PDF ever released for Pathfinder and is 3 years old at this point. When I released it (in November 2009) there was no "harrowed" term in Pathfinder yet. :)

Ok, back to thread.

So this whole thing is about Paizo not having foresight?


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
So this whole thing is about Paizo not having foresight?

You want Paizo to bar 3PP from ever using any name that they might conceivably consider using at some point years in the future?

This whole thing is the OP not having foresight to read the one-paragraph description before spending a dollar on something and then raging at the world.

Assistant Software Developer

5 people marked this as a favorite.

I removed a post and a rather lot of posts that replied to it, directly or indirectly.

Someone playing the game differently from you is not a moral failing.

Dark Archive

Pendagast wrote:

One of the things I despised about 3.5 is all the bloat caused by endless splat books.

SSG has come out with some neat stuff as had kobold press, however, the game crunch is just getting too much again. One of the things I liked initially about pathfinder was they took the truly core stuff and made it interesting again, enough to jut keep core.

But then you fall into keeping up with the joneses, and buying all the books and then you're back to flipping through three books to build one character again.

Time for me (at least) to sign of all TPP. No more. there are too many. I bought a PDF yesterday called "the harrowed" because I have a player in my party that took "harrowed" as a feat from the CotCT AP, because she wanted to play an oracle that reads cards etc.

But upon buying this product, I realize it has nothing to do with the subject at all instead it's some lame undead that isn't undead creature template.

I think if paizo is going to let TPP sell stuff compatible with the game, the names at titles all need congruency. Too many things running out there that are feats and abilities and templates and archetypes that all mean or do different things with the same name (roof runner rogue archetype vs. shingle runner feat? thats not even a TPP issue for example)

anyhow... just so I dont have another game system ruined for me. No more TPP.

Too bad I cant sell the PDFs I bought. poop.

Just checking, but you do realize that Paizo is technically a Third Party Publisher, yes?

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

TriOmegaZero wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
You missed the 'usually' didn't you? Endzeitgeist is only one reviewer after all.
Which is why we need more.
Maybe I should take some of the time I spend here on the forums and use it to write some reviews...

Absolutely! Start with Legendary Games! :)


Roberta Yang wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
So this whole thing is about Paizo not having foresight?

You want Paizo to bar 3PP from ever using any name that they might conceivably consider using at some point years in the future?

This whole thing is the OP not having foresight to read the one-paragraph description before spending a dollar on something and then raging at the world.

I don't want Paizo to bar anything except adult content and that's only because I think it's inappropriate for sale on their site. I don't have a problem with it but there is a standard they should uphold. Other than that, I don't want them telling people what they can and can't produce. I want to see how creative people can get. Some people have great ideas that may use similar or even the same names. I don't care. I can change the names as I need for my games. I've already done that for SSG's Leadership feats. I allow both of those plus the original. It's not something I have an issue with.


Justin Sluder wrote:
Pendagast wrote:

One of the things I despised about 3.5 is all the bloat caused by endless splat books.

SSG has come out with some neat stuff as had kobold press, however, the game crunch is just getting too much again. One of the things I liked initially about pathfinder was they took the truly core stuff and made it interesting again, enough to jut keep core.

But then you fall into keeping up with the joneses, and buying all the books and then you're back to flipping through three books to build one character again.

Time for me (at least) to sign of all TPP. No more. there are too many. I bought a PDF yesterday called "the harrowed" because I have a player in my party that took "harrowed" as a feat from the CotCT AP, because she wanted to play an oracle that reads cards etc.

But upon buying this product, I realize it has nothing to do with the subject at all instead it's some lame undead that isn't undead creature template.

I think if paizo is going to let TPP sell stuff compatible with the game, the names at titles all need congruency. Too many things running out there that are feats and abilities and templates and archetypes that all mean or do different things with the same name (roof runner rogue archetype vs. shingle runner feat? thats not even a TPP issue for example)

anyhow... just so I dont have another game system ruined for me. No more TPP.

Too bad I cant sell the PDFs I bought. poop.

Just checking, but you do realize that Paizo is technically a Third Party Publisher, yes?

Technically speaking, while they did start that way, they aren't any more. Pathfinder is its own rule system, separate from (and not nearly as compatible with compared to how it started) 3.5. They are the first party for Pathfinder related material.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

Pendagast wrote:
Jeremy Smith wrote:
Pendagast wrote:
Seems kinda odd , if you ask me to have TPP print prehensile hair (for example) if you are going to put it in your main game in a future book.

Oh, I can give a very, very relevant point to this.

Psionics.

Paizo had no plans in 2009, 2010, 2011, or 2012 to implement psionics. That's 3+ years, and I haven't seen any timetable on if 2013 has it slated either.

Yet there are thousands (no, I am not exaggerating that number) of fans who want psionics for their Pathfinder games. Since Paizo wasn't doing it, we did, and for the past few years, players have had psionics in their game. Some have chosen not to use them because they're not "official," but thousands of fans were willing to go with a third party publisher rather than go without.

Paizo might come out with psionic rules of their own, but they haven't yet, and players want it. And they want it now.

Ok here's an excellent example. Paizo had no intention of doing psionics (for whatever reason) there was a demand for PFRPG compatible psionics. Enter TPP, supply said rules set, happy customers.

It would be odd, poor from, and/or redundant for Paizo to then, at a latter time, come out with a psionics book. the TPP has already done it. the need is met.

If Paizo WERE to do it, there would be a bunch (if not a ton) of reused terms, that werent exactly the same and much redundant content.

If a TPP wants to be on the parent companies good side they wouldn't just fire out loads of stuff without consulting said parent company who might be planning on putting out a book on that topic and is already in the works. If you keep sniping stuff under the nose of the main company, its a good way not to get your product carried on their website and loose exposure to getting your products sold (yes you can sell it elsewhere but that's not ideal)

So cooperation between TPP and main company gets desired results (extremely limited rules bloat)

Here's the problem with your understanding of how the process works: Paizo isn't a parent company.

Paizo is an entirely separate company from the 3PPs that make products that are compatible with the Pathfinder game. Some 3PPs sell stuff on the Paizo store, some sell elsewhere, some do both. Regardless, here's the thing about them being separate companies: Paizo doesn't share their detailed plans ahead of time.

Sure, they give previews a few months out, sometimes as much as half a year, and they make announcements at PaizoCon and GenCon about upcoming products. Outside of that, whatever future plans they have are part of their corporate intellectual property.

What rules apply to Paizo employees doing freelance I can't say, but for regular Paizo freelancers like the guys at Legendary Games, our work with Paizo is contingent on non-disclosure agreements about the work we do for them. Even if we have advance knowledge of future Paizo products from working on them (or even turning down an assignment after becoming aware of it), we can't even discuss unannounced products much less release our own products based on them.

Besides, even if we could act on that prior knowledge of the general nature of the product, or even those specific parts that we've written or read from other contributors, we have no idea which parts will end up in the final version or what developmental changes might be made (including the names of things - feats, spells, PrCs, archetype and class ability names, magic item names - all of these can (and often do) change between submission and publication.

I say all that to say that it would be impossible even for people well connected to Paizo to predict with absolute certainty what rules and concepts Paizo will create more than half a year away (at best), much less for Paizo to maintain a minutely granular database of everything that 40+ 3PPs are doing independently to prevent any kind of overlap. Paizo isn't the parent or the supervisor of any of the 3PPs out there, even ones composed of regular Paizo writers or contracting with current Paizo employees. They are all working toward compatible but not identical goals, and while a goal of avoiding obvious overlap is worthwhile, the investment of time and resources in trying to ensure absolute and perfect non-duplication is a struggle not worth the prize IMO.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Pendagast,

if you have a problem with the amount of third party producta available for the Pathfinder RPG, the solution is very simple: do not use them, do not buy them.

If you cannot control your players regarding what kind of sourcebooks they can use to build their characters, it is nothing more than a problem of your authority of being a Game Master and it has nothing to do with Paizo or any third party publisher. It is your problem, and your group's, and yours alone. Only you can solve it.

Anything beyond that is simply whining. Sorry to be so harsh, but why should other customers on this site be affected by your groups' problems?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Jason Nelson wrote:
Absolutely! Start with Legendary Games! :)

I'll have to get my hands on some product first. :) Probably The Way of Ki first.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Re 3pp.

The prologue to Hammer's Slammers had a line I loved, "Wars begin when one side beleives they have an advantage over the other, or wishes to commit suicide (And not even Massada started as a suicide attempt.)"

We can adapt this for most 3pp to read "Third Party product is published when one publisher feels there's a hole to be filled, or wants to self destruct (and not even Razor coast started as an exercise in self destruction)."

People wanted point based psionics, Dreamscarred's products came into being. People wanted a more martial caster, the Vanguard was put out by SGG (and the Magus, and my Damascarran, and bard archtypes, etc etc. by others)
People want more items/monsters/feats etc. Others make them. Some are good, some are overrated, some (like mine) are put out just for the purpose of hoping someone else enjoys them. It falls to the players and GM to control their purchases and their tables, saying "No" politely and firmly.

It's not Paizo's obligation to tell SGG "We're looking at making a class called a Magus, can you pick a different name?" Nor is it Dreamscarred's obligation to not put out psionics because they're 'down the road'.

Most of 'us' (Maybe I'm being boastful including my little drabs of creativity in with real 3PP) do these things not (just) for profit, but for love of the hobby. No one is forcing anyone to use it.


I think most of my responses to the OP have already been said, but I do have a few other comments.

First, I think 3PP developers improve Pathfinder and help Paizo out in the long run. A lot of freelancers working for Paizo (and even some permanent fixtures) got there start or grew as writers/designers because of 3rd party material. Hell, I think James Jacob mentioned in the "ask James Jacob" that experience in 3rd party material is something they look for in new contributors.

Also, 3PP developers are able to fill in holes that might be too niche to easily fit into Paizo's publishing schedule, or can not easily fit Golarion or what they envision for the setting. Annoyed there are not dragonic humanoids? Open Design/Kobold Quarterly has the Dragonkin. Want to run an underseas campaign? Alluria Publishing has a whole book on undersea adventures. Psionics? Dreamscarred Press. Basically...there are plenty of people who like those options and consider them important to a game, and by the 3PP supporting them they are also contributing to Pathfinder's growth.

I think any attempt to restrict 3PP is likely to hurt Pathfinder in the long run, by both reducing the crop of system savvy potential freelancers, and by restricting niche options that might be essential for some games. If anything, I would like to see more Paizo support for 3PP material, like incorporating some ideas from those companies into core products, like Paizo has done with some of the monsters from Tome of Horrors and Green Ronin's fiend book.

Publisher, Dreamscarred Press

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Jason Nelson wrote:
Absolutely! Start with Legendary Games! :)
I'll have to get my hands on some product first. :) Probably The Way of Ki first.

I'll chime in that I'm happy to give free swag to people who do detailed reviews. :)

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

Jeremy Smith wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Jason Nelson wrote:
Absolutely! Start with Legendary Games! :)
I'll have to get my hands on some product first. :) Probably The Way of Ki first.
I'll chime in that I'm happy to give free swag to people who do detailed reviews. :)

Likewise. If you'd like to do a thorough review, especially on a product that has not reviews yet, send me a PM and let me know. First dibs gets free stuff!


Bloat can only be considered bloat, if you're gaming group allows every Core book and every 3pp book - that's a lot of books and ergo 'bloat'. However, in most every campaign I've played/run for 3x or Pathfinder, not every book was allowed for a given setting. In some cases Core, APG, and some 3pp book were the only rules allowed, the other Paizo books UM and UC were considered banned for the setting/campaign. It's up to the GM to decide which books and rules supplements are allowed. It doesn't have to be bloat if you minimize the choices.

Consider my part in the creation of Kaidan - Japanese horror setting (PFRPG). Paizo has created some oriental rules that I use: Samurai class, Ninja, Kensai (magus archetype), and Geisha (bard archetype). All are very usable in a Kaidan campaign. However, there are more than just those 4 classes for the setting. One could argue, just take an existing archetype from the APG, and reflavor it oriental to use. While that could be done, IMO, the right flavor I'm looking for might not match APG archetypes. Also there are four different archetypes for samurai for Kaidan, because the base samurai class doesn't fill all niches in a samurai game. Paizo didn't bother to create any archetypes for samurai, so Core is not enough, it takes 3PP to get it all.

This means I need custom archetypes better suited for use in my feudal Japanese horror game, so it means I need custom-created or 3PP material that fills those holes.

Paizo provides no specific paladin class that fits a Japan theme. So Rite Publishing created Yamabushi (paladin archetype) which fits my need.

I won't necessarily allow other 3PP, just those 3PP that specifically fit the oriental niche. Just as I won't allow most of the non-oriental archetypes from the APG in my game. So I don't have bloat as an issue.

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