I've been playing Pathfinder for a while now, but have just been asked to join a 3.5 campaign in progress. PF is the only system I know, but I've gotten to know the rules fairly well. What's the easiest way to learn 3.5 after playing Pathfinder?
Has anyone written a guide? I found "The 3.5/Pathfinder Handbook", but it (understandably) assumes you're familiar with 3.5 and explains the Pathfinder rules. Is there anything like the reverse?
Are there certain chunks of the game that are similar enough not to worry about having to re-learn? Or is it best to just read the 3.5 rules cover-to-cover?
The campaign is at 11th level, so I want to be aware enough of the rules that I can build and play a character of that level effectively without bogging down the game. Thanks in advance.
Honestly? Reread the core book, cover to cover.
Pathfinder is very similar to 3.5, but it's also very, very different. Both games feel very different in design, too. 3.5 seems to be designed with the mentality of "this is how X classically functioned, so let's stick with that." Pathfinder on the other hand seems to be designed with the mentality of "let's make sure everyone is getting fun things to play with."
3.5 on the whole has a lot more flaws the PF (not that PF is flawless), and the martial/caster divide is much wider. Combat maneuvers like bull rush and grapple are far more complicated and spells are often more powerful than they should be. Also, druids are king of the game, followed closely by clerics.
3.5 is a lot of fun to be sure, and it's the reason most of us even play PF. But the rules are different in ways you wouldn't expect, so just take an hour and read over the book. You can ignore spells and all that unless you're playing a caster.
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I would say almost the exact opposite honestly. I think 3.5 was a better and more balanced/fun/allowing system while PFs design mentality is more along the lines of only allowing thinga to work one or two ways, while 3.5 tended to offer multiple option and avenues for a concept.
3.5 was by far much bwtter at explaining why a thing worked the way it does, and helpful in giving guidelines to players and DMs for things that fall in the cracks. PF changed a lot of things, but most of them are so hidden its very hard to notice them, even this late in the game. That does not however mean they are minor changes, just difficult to notice.
As far as rules familiarity, going from PF to 3.5 would not be too difficult. But there will be a lot of things throughout the game, zo just ask questions of the group and you should be fine.
There is a huge list of 3.5 material, just like their is a huge amount of Pathfinder material, exept 3.5 has even more. It would probably be helpful to ask what 3.5 books are allowed to be used in this campaign. There may be other limitations, based on the campaign's setting too.
Does it matter that I'll be playing an Artificer? I've read this is an "expert class" and "not for newbies", but there's a character concept I've been developing for a while and am just dying to play. In PF I built him as a Creation subschool wizard, but the 3.5 Artificer class seems to be even more perfectly suited to the concept.
Is it just insane to try to put together an 11th level artificer without ever having played before? Or should I be ok after spending a bit of time with the rules and magic items?
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You should be ok, though starting out at 11th level is going to be difficult for almost any cass. The Artificer is sort of like a PF combo Bard/Alchemist in some ways. They are a solid class that best buffs (long and short term) themselves and other players with a reduced Arcane Spell List, but flavored somewhat similarly to the generic Alchemist (sort of steampunk semi-magical). Also, like the Bard, they tend to have a lot of in and out of combat uses, many skills, and be a jack-of-all-trades type, but not with the pitfalls that Bard's have. They also tend to fill the Cleric's "leader" role, and have a bit of Cleric stuff, too, but again, without the common drawbacks (who is the Cleric this time?).
As a Artificer, some things that you will really need to be aware of is that Magic Item Creation in 3.5 works differntly. It has an XP cost to create, and the Artificer actually has a built-in pool that allows them to get around this.
Artificer are also one of the primary healers of Warforged, which tend to have poor reactions to cure spells. Outside of Eberron, this is less important.
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Some big differences in 3.5.
Undead are (naturally) immune to sneak attack and critical hits by nature of being undead.
A lot of monsters and encounters are much more difficult and deadly. You die at -10 HP. Penulties are either long term or permanent (which has mostly been removed from PF), DR tends to be a bit higher and more difficult to overcome, (just having a +5 weapon will not do it).
Healing is less common. There is no Channel Energy (which I personally love about 3.5), so keep in mind that everyone will need to play a bit more wisely and tactically.
There are many ways to make something work, so do not assume that an NPC is ______ because they can do ________.
More than a few spells have been tonned way down in PF, or changed so that they no longer allow something to happen. In 3.5, there are a lot more "SoD" or "SoS" effects, again meaning that it is a much more deadly ad dirty game style. <Save-or-Die or Save-or-Suck, if you have any experience with PFS, many of the encounters still have this against the players>
At their core, Pathfinder and 3.5 are the same game. However, in 3.5, every combat maneuvers have its own subsystem while Pathfinder use a universal subsystem (CMB and CMD) for all combat maneuvers. Base classes in 3.5 are more simpler than in Pathfinder. As an example, Fighters only get bonus feat (no bravery, armor training and weapon group training), Barbarians have no rage powers, Rogues have no rogue talents (until level 10), Sorcerers have no bloodlines, etc. Every characters only get a feat once every 3 levels (instead of every odd-numbered level), which means that you have to choose your feat more carefully and that accomplishing a particular build relying on feats or feats chains could take more time in 3.5 than in Pathfinder, except for Trip and Bullrush build. Your 3.5 character will feel a little more fragile and underskilled than a Pathfinder character, but some people love that feeling.
I think that playing both games is a hell lot of fun and I hope you will enjoy your experience. Unlike what a lot of people are saying on this board, 3.5 is only broken if you go out of your way to optimise your character with splatbooks and cheesy combo. I never had this problem because I never played with jerks who's goal was to "win" the game by making the ultimate character. However, druids are really strong even if you only use the Core books, since they are essentially Synthesist Summoner with a pet in extra. Plus, it is true that the disparity between casters and non-casters is even wider in 3.5 than in Pathfinder, but remember that no core race gets a racial bonus to any of the three mental scores (Int, Wis, Cha) in 3.5.
Undead are (naturally) immune to sneak attack and critical hits by nature of being undead.
Holy crap!!! I did not realize this disappeared in PF. I've been playing no precision damage on undead for the duration. I always house-ruled that you could crit on undead, so no change there, but the allowed sneak attack thing just blew my mind. I'll have to send out an email to my players.
As Devils advocate says be prepared for deadlier monsters. Also a huge flaw to pathfinder is that it seem to cater more towards organized play. 3.5 relies more on the dungeon master to adjudicate. Monsters and encounters are not limited to CR 25. 3.5 lets you go beyond CR 25 but Pathfinder stops at CR 25.
Druids, Clerics and wizards are kings, but I don't mind it.
Both systems are great but not perfect. I run a sort of hybrid campaign for my players.
Good luck on your campaign.
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Undead are (naturally) immune to sneak attack and critical hits by nature of being undead.Holy crap!!! I did not realize this disappeared in PF. I've been playing no precision damage on undead for the duration. I always house-ruled that you could crit on undead, so no change there, but the allowed sneak attack thing just blew my mind. I'll have to send out an email to my players.
Just to be clear, this was in 3.5 (and 3.0). In PF, Undead can both be critted and Sneak Attacked. A few specific ones can not, and Incorporeal can not, but general Undead can be. Basically the same thing with Constructs, Plant, and Elementals.
For me one of the more important differences is in Skills; that was one of the things that I really like better of PF over 3.5.
On 3.5 the non class skill was twice as expensive and can only take half as ranks as a class skills. No +3 for class skills, but you recieve normal skill points x4 at level 1 (those two changes cancel each other fairly well).
That lack of competence on non class skills can make some important differences. Also, there were more skills on 3.5
Undead are (naturally) immune to sneak attack and critical hits by nature of being undead.Holy crap!!! I did not realize this disappeared in PF. I've been playing no precision damage on undead for the duration. I always house-ruled that you could crit on undead, so no change there, but the allowed sneak attack thing just blew my mind. I'll have to send out an email to my players.
It amazing what you find out when you read the books.
Artificer can be a very fun class, and optimized well it is actually one of the most powerful in the game, but I definitely agree that it is not newb-friendly.
You should definitely read thoroughly all the infusion rules, both how they work (differently than casting) and all the individual ones. Skills were massively changed between 3E and PF and are a big component to an artificer, so also review them well.
What books can you use? I assume you don't want to use too many sources even if all are allowed, but inevitably some books will have more stuff useful to your class than others, so it could help ot know which books you have access to and if any of them are expecially loaded with useful things.
Here is an Artificer handbook, you could check through that and see if you can follow along and glean anything of use from it.
I have 0 experience with artificers, so I really can't help you. I do know Warforged Artificer gets nice racial substituion level options and can self-heal (very handy for a warforged!), but playing a warforged introduces a ton of new complications itself.
It amazing what you find out when you read the books.Undead are (naturally) immune to sneak attack and critical hits by nature of being undead.Holy crap!!! I did not realize this disappeared in PF. I've been playing no precision damage on undead for the duration. I always house-ruled that you could crit on undead, so no change there, but the allowed sneak attack thing just blew my mind. I'll have to send out an email to my players.
Was that a shot?
Undead are (naturally) immune to sneak attack and critical hits by nature of being undead.
Holy crap!!! I did not realize this disappeared in PF. I've been playing no precision damage on undead for the duration. I always house-ruled that you could crit on undead, so no change there, but the allowed sneak attack thing just blew my mind. I'll have to send out an email to my players.
It amazing what you find out when you read the books.
Was that a shot?
Pretty poor one if it was. Given the massive carry over from 3.5 to PF, and years of experience playing 3.5 it's not hard to make mistakes along those lines. It's also easy to stick with a 3.5 rule if you prefer it to the PF variation.
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Yah, that's just one example of wierd little changes that are hard to find. PF has tons and tons of these. I started a thread a long time ago about this specifically, and there is another one (that tends to fall more into PF fanboys insisting tir game is right and your's is wrong or that it always worked that way) that shows many of the little differences people often do not notice, even after both reading the books arefully and playing for years. I'll see if I can find links t those.
A few things that come to mind is the Mithral DOES NOT let you wear the armor without the original armor type proficiency (so heavy armor prof for Mithral Ful Plate even though it's light).
Elves DO sleep.
Darkness DOES NOT block Darkvision (and actually acts differently.
Spirited Charge actually DOES work again.
Magic weapons overcome DR according to their bonus, but magic spells that do the same exact thing (Greater Magical Weapon, Magic fang) DO NOT.
YOU CAN NOT do an asortment of things like Cleave, Vital Strike, and attack options with each other.
Sunder DOES NOT ruin the item sundered, (usually).
A few things that come to mind is the Mithral DOES NOT let you wear the armor without the original armor type proficiency (so heavy armor prof for Mithral Ful Plate even though it's light).
Elves DO sleep.
Darkness DOES NOT block Darkvision (and actually acts differently.
Spirited Charge actually DOES work again.
Magic weapons overcome DR according to their bonus, but magic spells that do the same exact thing (Greater Magical Weapon, Magic fang) DO NOT.
YOU CAN NOT do an asortment of things like Cleave, Vital Strike, and attack options with each other.
Sunder DOES NOT ruin the item sundered, (usually).
Also, if you do find a link to those old threads I'd like to take a look at them.
Thanks.
A few things that come to mind is the Mithral DOES NOT let you wear the armor without the original armor type proficiency (so heavy armor prof for Mithral Ful Plate even though it's light).
The page on Special Materials says:
Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving.
Elves DO sleep.
The rules don't explicitly say "elves sleep", but nowhere in the rules does it ever say elves DON'T sleep.
Magic weapons overcome DR according to their bonus, but magic spells that do the same exact thing (Greater Magical Weapon, Magic fang) DO NOT.
It's right there in the spell description:
This bonus does not allow a weapon to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.
In 3.5 you need to dress up like your character. Make sure to wear the appropriate clothing and makup to your first session.
Thanks RumpinRufus. :)