Added thread for new Goblinworks Blog: A Three-Headed Hydra.
I'm very happy you guys are finally getting into the meat and potatoes of combat.
Goblin Squad Member
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Looks interesting. I'll have to see how it fleshes out, but so far I'm interested.
I like that you found a way for weapons to be of varying quality, without directly affecting the power curve.
I *really* like the stamina system. That is all sorts of clever.
I'm still somewhat confused as to how the skill slot system works, but I'm sure someone will come along and enlighten me eventually.
Overall: Good blog, give more!
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Goblin Squad Member
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After a first read, i have a little fear about the combat system. If you are a spellcaster, you may have to wait before playing again. (because of the limit use of the refresh) I wonder the reason. But, the balance (more for news players) is a excellent idea.
The starmina system. Maybe, it too like the RPG. Does the monster will have the same system? It will sure have more tactic than hack and slash. (or the attack action will not cost points)Does moving will cost points? With reflexion, The best fighter (not the class) will not be the one who have the best real-life dexterity but, the one who think.
The weapon trait is a good idea because of the simplicity, but it mean that a high weapon will have a lot of trait to not overpowering a low level. It seem a overspecialisation of a weapon. (Exemple: You need to be 6 monk and 12 sorcerer for having this weapon with this 10 precises skill)
Now, we have the hotkeys. I think there too many. 14 keys! When I am playing with 10 hotkey action i use 7 keys and don't forget that you need to navigate.
Goblinworks Founder
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Thanks for a little more clarity on the action buttons like wielding a holy symbol or spell book.
I was wondering how it would eventually be by learning everything in the game and how they would use them. Think some will be working more to their characters skills before they start branching out. Like myself with the divine and maybe a shield for the off hand and being able to switch to a mace/holy symbol or the holy symbol/shield and so on.
Hmm I wonder what defensive abilities are attached with shield that will compliment my divine abilities. Give me that double support abilities with helping my team.
Heh Greatsword backstabber >.<
*giggles with excitement*
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nice! The Goblinworks team is taking this in a very interesting direction, keep it up!
Just a question though: Was the idea on weapon usage and the abilities and gaining it as you become more proficient in some ways inspired from the system used in Guild Wars 2? Reminded me of it somewhat from the way you were describing it, except using character level and 'weapon proficiency' as a wall to prevent lower level players from using high level abilities.
Of course, I'm going to have to go on and say my approval is based upon speculation of my possible experience in the game, so until I get my hands on a build down the road this should be taken with a grain of salt.
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Goblin Squad Member
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After a second read, I have a question. If my deity is a neutral one,
and suppose that I will take positve energy, what will be the effect if I take the same religeous symbol from a cleric in the same religion and alignement who choose negative? Does the symbol will give me the power to use channel negative enegy or only the positive energy or I can't use it because the symbol can only channel negative energy?
Also, does symbols will have weapon traits that use positive and negative?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just a question though: Was the idea on weapon usage and the abilities and gaining it as you become more proficient in some ways inspired from the system used in Guild Wars 2? Reminded me of it somewhat from the way you were describing it, except using character level and 'weapon proficiency' as a wall to prevent lower level players from using high level abilities.
That is the same thing that I have thought too. Problem with the weapon skills in GW2 is that they are unlocked waaay to fast, so that you don't have a real sensation of achievement over a longer period of time.
I'm looking forward to the Goblinworks solution :)|
Goblin Squad Member
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Refresh Slots
Most combat abilities that are not tied to weapons are Refresh abilities, and they're placed in slots 7–10. These are things like spells, rage abilities, etc. If a character has a spellbook equipped, it can go into one of these slots; activating the spellbook turns all weapon slots into spell slots determined by the spellbook. Wizards will have to find and equip different spellbooks to get access to different spells, with some books being more valuable or rare than others.
Does this mean I'll be able to put a different spellbook in each of these slots, so that I can easily switch between them during combat to have access to a total of 24 different spells? If so, I'm extremely pleased.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Each weapon has certain traits associated with it, such as Sharp, Blunt, Rogue, or even Vorpal. Some abilities players can learn are only useable with weapons that have specific traits, such as Sneak Attack working only with weapons that have the Rogue Weapon trait.
Awe, man! I wanted to sneak attack with a Great Axe :(
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Goblin Squad Member
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Time to start planning my Tech Demo Video Release Party!
Way to go, guys! Now I need to make sure I have my Super Ultra Deluxe Collector's Edition Fund in order for when they finally announce release info. No rush, though. I'm content to wait for quality.
So long as I get some goodies in the meanwhile . . . mmmm . . . t-shirt . . .
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Goblin Squad Member
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Weapon Slots
The first six slots on the action bar are weapon slots, tied directly to the weapon (or weapons if dual-wielding) you have equipped. (In this context, the term "weapon" includes staves, wands, holy symbols, and other magical implements.) Each weapon has one or two basic attacks associated with it that any character who can use the weapon can take advantage of; the remaining slots are used by the player to slot in abilities the character has learned that are compatible for that weapon. For example, a fighter who equips a short sword may equip abilities like Whirlwind Attack or Power Attack, while a rogue may equip Sneak Attack in these slots. The number of slots available is determined by the character's skills; a low level character may only be able to use two or three abilities initially, while a master of that same weapon will be able to use all six slots.
This part bothers me. I might have 7 abilities that I could slot, but I'm only allowed to slot 6 of them, and thus completely unable to use the 7th without going back to town (or somewhere else suitable) to reconfigure my action bar. But I understand the rationale, and I suppose it's not terrible, although I would implore you to reconsider giving players the option to overwhelm themselves with choices if they so choose. The weapon trait system should solve the problem of party balance, and simply adding another action bar for 10 additional weapon-based abilities should solve the problem of UI layout.
I also have a question related to weapon sets. Will it be possible for a Fighter/Cleric to switch between Short Sword for Fighter abilities and Holy Symbol for Cleric abilities? If so, will that switch eat up most or all of the action points for a 6-second interval, or will it be more akin to switching hotbars in other games? Or will all of our "ready" weapon sets have to be in the same Role?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sounds good so far. Seems like a good balance between providing lots of options while still maintaining order and control. Six second rounds sound promising. I imagine mastering this will be a major dividing factor between casual and advanced players. Also, in addition to the increased refresh rate for newer players, I could see this helping a less skilled player hold his own against someone higher level.
I also like the idea of weapon keywords. Adds another layer to weapon selection and gives us something to consider other than pure numbers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Weapon Slots
The first six slots on the action bar are weapon slots, tied directly to the weapon (or weapons if dual-wielding) you have equipped. (In this context, the term "weapon" includes staves, wands, holy symbols, and other magical implements.) Each weapon has one or two basic attacks associated with it that any character who can use the weapon can take advantage of; the remaining slots are used by the player to slot in abilities the character has learned that are compatible for that weapon. For example, a fighter who equips a short sword may equip abilities like Whirlwind Attack or Power Attack, while a rogue may equip Sneak Attack in these slots. The number of slots available is determined by the character's skills; a low level character may only be able to use two or three abilities initially, while a master of that same weapon will be able to use all six slots.
This part bothers me. I might have 7 abilities that I could slot, but I'm only allowed to slot 6 of them, and thus completely unable to use the 7th without going back to town (or somewhere else suitable) to reconfigure my action bar. But I understand the rationale, and I suppose it's not terrible, although I would implore you to reconsider giving players the option to overwhelm themselves with choices if they so choose. The weapon trait system should solve the problem of party balance, and simply adding another action bar for 10 additional weapon-based abilities should solve the problem of UI layout.
I also have a question related to weapon sets. Will it be possible for a Fighter/Cleric to switch between Short Sword for Fighter abilities and Holy Symbol for Cleric abilities? If so, will that switch eat up most or all of the action points for a 6-second interval, or will it be more akin to switching hotbars in other games? Or will all of our "ready" weapon sets have to be in the same Role?
I think I miss that part. I need to select sneak attack like a ability? I understand that it make easier because of other types of attack. It the sort of thing that should not be choose. In the RPG, you could power attack and sneak attack because it when the enemy is denied his Dexterity. It a environnement trigger! Also, there differents effects that you chose on your sneak. How will it be choose between combat?.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Firstly thank you for such a wonderful meaty blog.
From my understanding of the blog if you’re a wizard archtype and you want to cast spells, you first equip a spellbook, which will then convert the weapons slots (keys 1 – 6) into spell slots. You can then casts the spells that are associated with that particular spellbook if you have the appropriate skills to use all of the spells in the spellbook. If you want to cast a spell that is in another spellbook then you must equip that spellbook to gain access to those spells.
I have some questions in relation to spellbooks. Are the spellbooks going to be treated as an inventory item. Or rather they going to be treated as refresh abilities (slots 7-10)?
I’m of two minds about this system. Firstly I do like the design in principle. However, if spellbooks are treated as actual inventory items, then if a character were to die, then any spellbooks not equipped could be destroyed in the characters husk’s was looted. To me that is too much of a loss compared to the loss of a sword. I suspect that it will be far easier to buy a new sword than to find a spellbook to replace the lost spell knowledge.
The loss might be mitigated somewhat if we have the ability to make copies of our spellbooks, so we can store one set away safely, to avoiding losing the valuable arcane knowledge. The devil is in the detail they say.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The loss might be mitigated somewhat if we have the ability to make copies of our spellbooks, so we can store one set away safely, to avoiding losing the valuable arcane knowledge. The devil is in the detail they say.
IMO if a spellbook winds up drastically more expensive than a typical sword, than something is off in the class balance in this style of game. Personally the 2 analogies should be similar in most aspects.
Marshal adventurer scours the deep dungeons for the components to have an X sword created, wizard scours the dungeon to find the materials to find X spell to inscribe into his spellbook. If the fighter wants to use his flaming greatsword on one enemy, and his frost in a different fight, he must risk one of them. If a wizard wishes to use Spell from book A on one enemy, and spell from book B on a second, he must risk losing one...
Why is the wizards loss viewed as so much worse than the fighters? A fighter is drastically worse without his best weapon, and a wizard is drastically worse without an optimal choice of spells. Why is it balanced for the wizard to have a backup of his spellbook, but universally agreed to be unreasonable for a fighter to back up the enchantments on his weapon?
IMO most likely spells will be trained, just like most abilities, spellbooks will likely be required to have one equiped to be able to use them, and possibly have different types of books that enhance different spells (that IMO will be what is necessary to keep wizards and fighters on the same playing field).
In P&P a wizard had the same chance of losing his spellbook, as a fighter did of losing his weapons and armor, that is because they are both equally critical to their respective classes.
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Now as far as everything in the blog, Very awesome indeed, I think that is brilliant usage of getting the feeling of rounds, uses per day etc... working in an MMORPG, it eliminates my greatest pet peve of all MMO's, (Reducing everything down to spells per encounter, as only a crazy idiot pulls with under 100% HP and mana). DDO IMO did this well, though I would also say, it's methods are completely unusable outside a themepark, set predictable dungeon path. This is the first time I have seen a system that matches P&P, without going through that issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The loss might be mitigated somewhat if we have the ability to make copies of our spellbooks, so we can store one set away safely, to avoiding losing the valuable arcane knowledge. The devil is in the detail they say.
IMO if a spellbook winds up drastically more expensive than a typical sword, than something is off in the class balance in this style of game. Personally the 2 analogies should be similar in most aspects.
Marshal adventurer scours the deep dungeons for the components to have an X sword created, wizard scours the dungeon to find the materials to find X spell to inscribe into his spellbook. If the fighter wants to use his flaming greatsword on one enemy, and his frost in a different fight, he must risk one of them. If a wizard wishes to use Spell from book A on one enemy, and spell from book B on a second, he must risk losing one...
Why is the wizards loss viewed as so much worse than the fighters? A fighter is drastically worse without his best weapon, and a wizard is drastically worse without an optimal choice of spells. Why is it balanced for the wizard to have a backup of his spellbook, but universally agreed to be unreasonable for a fighter to back up the enchantments on his weapon?
IMO most likely spells will be trained, just like most abilities, spellbooks will likely be required to have one equiped to be able to use them, and possibly have different types of books that enhance different spells (that IMO will be what is necessary to keep wizards and fighters on the same playing field).
In P&P a wizard had the same chance of losing his spellbook, as a fighter did of losing his weapons and armor, that is because they are both equally critical to their respective classes.
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Now as far as everything in the blog, Very awesome indeed, I think that is brilliant usage of getting the feeling of rounds, uses per day etc... working in an MMORPG, it eliminates my greatest pet peve of all MMO's, (Reducing everything down to spells per...
You forget that wizard need also weapon. Forget about that.
Talking about wisard... what will be the "weapons" of the sorcerer? They don't have spellbook and They don't use component. Theoretically, They should not "learn" spell.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You forget that wizard need also weapon. Forget about that.
Talking about wisard... what will be the "weapons" of the sorcerer? They don't have spellbook and They don't use component. Theoretically, They should not "learn" spell.
I didn't forget, I noted that the spellbook as described IS his weapon.
Sorcs, I would bet my money that sorcs and druids will have some sort of staff/stave etc...
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Goblin Squad Member
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The loss might be mitigated somewhat if we have the ability to make copies of our spellbooks, so we can store one set away safely, to avoiding losing the valuable arcane knowledge. The devil is in the detail they say.
IMO if a spellbook winds up drastically more expensive than a typical sword, than something is off in the class balance in this style of game. Personally the 2 analogies should be similar in most aspects.
Marshal adventurer scours the deep dungeons for the components to have an X sword created, wizard scours the dungeon to find the materials to find X spell to inscribe into his spellbook. If the fighter wants to use his flaming greatsword on one enemy, and his frost in a different fight, he must risk one of them. If a wizard wishes to use Spell from book A on one enemy, and spell from book B on a second, he must risk losing one...
Why is the wizards loss viewed as so much worse than the fighters? A fighter is drastically worse without his best weapon, and a wizard is drastically worse without an optimal choice of spells. Why is it balanced for the wizard to have a backup of his spellbook, but universally agreed to be unreasonable for a fighter to back up the enchantments on his weapon?
IMO most likely spells will be trained, just like most abilities, spellbooks will likely be required to have one equiped to be able to use them, and possibly have different types of books that enhance different spells (that IMO will be what is necessary to keep wizards and fighters on the same playing field).
In P&P a wizard had the same chance of losing his spellbook, as a fighter did of losing his weapons and armor, that is because they are both equally critical to their respective classes.
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Now as far as everything in the blog, Very awesome indeed, I think that is brilliant usage of getting the feeling of rounds, uses per day etc... working in an MMORPG, it eliminates my greatest pet peve of all MMO's, (Reducing everything down to spells per...
Since PFO is mainly skill based then if a fighter loses his magic sword, he will still be very deadly with a plain sword, as he hasn't lost any of his skill with that weapon. If he has trained for long enough he will still be a force to recon with.
A wizard on the other hand who loses a spellbook will be sorely limited until he can find a replacement. I'm not necessarily against losing spellbooks if it's possible to make copies and store the orginal somewhere safe.
This discusion may be pointless as the whole spellbook thing maybe a mechanical way of restricting a wizards tactical spell options. Lets wait and see if we get a response to my question.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Speaking of Wizards, I hope they can have 'libraries' where they can store knowledge they learned and that in a certain craft you can make spell books. The higher your level in it is, the more spells you can insert into them. It would make a nice combination I think, maybe have it have a restriction compared to using a found book with the 'original' spell instead of a copied one (reduced damage, higher CD, etc).
PnP had rules on how many spells could be stored in a spellbook based on the spells level. It would be neat if something similiar was implemented. There was a prestige class in complete arcane (I forget what it was called) that allowed wizards to reduce a spell down to only needing 1 page. If they implement spellbooks I'm sure many of us will invest in similiar skills.
Also it would be great if a feat similiar to spell mastery was available also. Or perhaps if you spend enough time learning and studying a spell you could perfect it so you can't forget it. This could then allow you to scribe the spell without having to find another version of it. If done right spellbooks could finally become something of value, a resource to protect and preserve. Rather than a forgotten item, as they largely are in PnP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Since PFO is mainly skill based then if a fighter loses his magic sword, he will still be very deadly with a plain sword, as he hasn't lost any of his skill with that weapon. If he has trained for long enough he will still be a force to recon with.
A wizard on the other hand who loses a spellbook will be sorely limited until he can find a replacement. I'm not necessarily against losing spellbooks if it's possible to make copies and store the orginal somewhere safe.
Quite true, more or less also why I'm saying most likely spells will have to be trained via skills, and a spellbook will likely be just a conduit.
Also falls into the explanation of what the weapon is not lost on death's purpose is, IE that you will still be able to use your trained skills on your way to your corpse, just not to their full potential. Not to mention, if spellbooks were indeed used for the purpose of knowing spells etc... we'd have a whole seperate balance issue. (namely that wizards could essentially do the equivelant of training every possible skill at 3 merit badges, for the low price of purchasing a new spellbook, while a fighter has to train all of his skills seperately, and would most probably have to take the time to train if he wanted to cover every potential combat style he wants available to him.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would -LOVE- to see that I am wearing my bow/quiver on my back and my daggers on my hip at the same time. I've never been a fan of magically appearing items, breaks...
This would be great, though I'm doubtful it'll ever be implemented. Seems like a lot of work for an essentially cosmetic touch. I guess I'll have to wait for the tech demo, but at the moment, I'm not assuming the visuals are going to be anything more than average. At least not at launch.
Given everything else they are trying to fit into this game, hoping for over the top character modeling and world design feels greedy. I'd love to be proven wrong though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am very happy to hear GoblinWorks is going with the limited ability slot system similar to Guild Wars. I really think that will be the best system for managing Pathfinder Online's many abilities. I look forward to seeing those abilities, and how they will hopefully complement this system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually I like the idea of making copies. Plays right into crafting and lore use (Spellcraft) which has been mentioned as a pillar of PFO. I want to see as much support given to crafting from legitimate player driven reason as possoible. Crafting spellbooks doesn't even have to be the sole duty of wizards as bookmaker could rise from other areas such as song books for bards and prayer books for clerics. I think it dovetails nicely with cartography as wellFirstly thank you for such a wonderful meaty blog.
From my understanding of the blog if you’re a wizard archtype and you want to cast spells, you first equip a spellbook, which will then convert the weapons slots (keys 1 – 6) into spell slots. You can then casts the spells that are associated with that particular spellbook if you have the appropriate skills to use all of the spells in the spellbook. If you want to cast a spell that is in another spellbook then you must equip that spellbook to gain access to those spells.
I have some questions in relation to spellbooks. Are the spellbooks going to be treated as an inventory item. Or rather they going to be treated as refresh abilities (slots 7-10)?
I’m of two minds about this system. Firstly I do like the design in principle. However, if spellbooks are treated as actual inventory items, then if a character were to die, then any spellbooks not equipped could be destroyed in the characters husk’s was looted. To me that is too much of a loss compared to the loss of a sword. I suspect that it will be far easier to buy a new sword than to find a spellbook to replace the lost spell knowledge.
The loss might be mitigated somewhat if we have the ability to make copies of our spellbooks, so we can store one set away safely, to avoiding losing the valuable arcane knowledge. The devil is in the detail they say.
The more I think about it the more I like the idea of spellbooks, particularly if they represent the spells you have prepared rather than the actual spell knowledge. That way by changing spellbooks you can alter what you have prepared or what you can actually cast. This would enable you to have certain spellbooks arranged to deal with different type of threats or encounters. I'm sure that scribing a spell into a spellbook will require resources and money, which may make it equivalent to the upkeep on weapons and armor.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another fascinating blog. Can't wait to see the PDF of Thornkeep book.
A few things that I like and most especially the 6 seconds system:
- We're working on a Stamina system that somewhat mimics the rounds of the Pathfinder RPG. Every six seconds, players will receive a pool of points they'll be able to spend taking various actions, breaking down combat into a number of tactical decisions.[...]
- We're also creating a Refresh system.[...]
- More valuable weapons have more or rarer traits, as opposed to simple inflation of their statistics, so low-level characters given a high-level weapon won't immediately become overpowered; they just won't have the abilities to make full use of the weapon.[...]
- By linking weapon choice to ability selection, players will be able to make a guess as to what role a character with a particular weapon is pursuing, but you won't be completely certain: Most fighters won't be carrying a staff... but they could.[...]
^The above all shout flexibility to me, I think is what is so potentially appealing. :)
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'm with Nihimon ref: accessing all abilities at once.
Is the intention to encourage behavior that sometimes does not use all available stamina, either because unspent stamina has a direct effect or because a+b+c has too little stamina left over for anything else and is better this round that a+c+d+e (which in this theoretical example uses every iota of stamina)
You mention revisiting death and dying. Without discussing specifics, is item loss and looting on death the kind of thing you were referencing?
Ryan: in keeping with the new titles, you are now goblin cheiftain. You may retain older titles if you wish, of course.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So much to love here! 6-second rounds hopefully means a 2 second lag spike won't kill you (and take you stuff). The stamina system and limited action bars also gives a good starting position for designing formation combat.
Ryan/GW: Weapon traits (and pre-slotted abilities) making weapons powerful rather than stats - how will that guide crafting?
Will crafters start off with basic recipes only but eventually learn to add more and better weapon traits? Can a grandmaster crafter potentially make a rogue greatsword, a crossbow firing magic missiles (ie with magic missile as a slotted ability), or other custom weapons?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Really like the idea, just what I was looking for.
Will all 3 weapon sets be preserved on death?
This part bothers me. I might have 7 abilities that I could slot, but I'm only allowed to slot 6 of them, and thus completely unable to use the 7th without going back to town (or somewhere else suitable) to reconfigure my action bar.
This argument is a sign things are moving in the right direction for a balanced system. In Diablo 3, there is always one more skill that would make my build flawless, when I played SW:TOR one more skill point would allow a 3rd tier(highest) power and a 2nd tier power from a 2nd skill tree. In League of Legends, one more item slot would make me super powerful, and one more skill point would give access to more advanced skills in another tree. Same thing happened in DCUO, which had a very balanced system, one more ability point would have a similar outcome to SW:TOR.
Unless the majority of your player base is asking for just one more of something so they can be awesome, your game is not balanced, and balance between 'play styles'(won't use the term 'classes') in crucial for a open character development game.
If anyone thinks they will have trouble adapting to this system, I suggest you play DCUO for a few weeks(it failed, so it's free), you have to pick only 6 abilities, and you can't go 'full' into two power trees. Don't put a cent into the game though, SOE doesn't deserve it.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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My problem with DCUO was that I had to respec everything to really switch between DPS and heal. Also, poor feedback on what the right response was re: lunge, ranged, block, dodge, soak.
I did eventually learn how to solo the Area 51 boss (it involved standing on top of its head while delivering repeated uppercuts) but that says more about the problems with a player-skill-based paradigm than DCUO specifically.
im having concerns about combat, but im not fully up to date on how combat is going to function, so i will reserve my pessimism until im 100%.
but i will ask you, on bended knees!, that you do not introduce a stealth class that has bust, control, and high survivability... it has been done in most mmo's to date and it never ends well. its the biggest source of frustration for most players.
now i would love a stealth, by stealth i mean invisibility type abilities, to play, but not a "high burst" class. and if a classless system is in place, then please make sure that people cant abuse that stealth system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It sounds interesting and I can't wait to play. My question in regards to the 6 second combat "rounds" is is this real time or turn based (or even semi turn based). I imagine with a MMO they would go real time, but if that's that's the case they may see players with lag issues or slower computers not using their full stamina pool even if they plan out their actions. This could lead to some people being "forced" to spam even if they didn't want to just to avoid being behind in combat.
I'm sure this is something they're aware of, but I would be interested in seeing how they handle it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is there any reason spellbooks aren't just treated as another weapon? It seems like they should work in a way more analogous to holy symbols.
Because of the design decision to limit us to 6 active abilities and 3 weapon sets, treating spellbooks as weapons would severely limit the ability of spellcasters to have a wide variety of spells.
The current design (if I'm right) allows for up to 24 spells, in addition to up to 18 other weapon-based abilities off of Staves and Wands.
If they treated spellbooks as weapons, that would leave only the 18 spells & abilities.
I actually have grave concerns about this design choice since it relies on the UI, rather than the design of skills and abilities, to constrain our choices.