Butterfly's Sting and Outflank: Teamwork feats and timing questions

[Veldebrand]

1) The main question is when a full attacking character (in this case a TWF fighter with two kukris with outflank, paired opp, butterfly's sting) confirms a critical and chooses to butterfly's sting, when does the flanking ally get to take his AOO from the outflank?

I think it's after the first critical hit was confirmed as a butterfly's sting and the non-crit damage was resolved. Thereby granting the outflanking ally taking the AOO the guaranteed critical confirmation (assuming he hits) with the AOO.

The next questions is with Paired Opportunists.

2) If the TWF fighter with combat reflexes is provoking multiple AOO's in a full attack, but his buddy runs out of AOOs available, will the paired op still allow the TWF fighter to continue the Outflank - paired opp critical chain? Since Paired Opportunists says, "Enemies that provoke attacks of opportunity from your ally also provoke attacks of opportunity from you so long as you threaten them" and gives no restriction as to whether that ally actually takes the AOO (or is able to take it), I believe that it should still grant the original crit'er the AOO.

Basically the fighter crits, outflank provokes from the outflanking ally (but he has no more AOOs for the round), however the paired Opportunists gives the original crit'er the AOO because it does cause a provocation.

Final question:
3) Do you have to be adjacent to your ally to receive the AOO from Paired Opportunists?

It looks to me like there are two different parts to the feat. If you are not next to your ally you don't get the +4 bonus to AOOs, but you still get the AOO if your ally gets an AOO.

Relevant feats:

Butterfly’s Sting (critical)

Spoiler:

You can forgo a critical hit in order to pass it on to an ally.

Prerequisite: Combat Expertise.

Benefit: When you confirm a critical hit against a creature, you can choose to forgo the effect of the critical hit and grant a critical hit to the next ally who hits the creature with a melee attack before the start of your next turn. Your attack only deals normal damage, and the next ally automatically confirms the hit as a critical.

Outflank (Combat, Teamwork)

Spoiler:

You look for every edge when flanking an enemy.

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature, your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4. In addition, whenever you score a critical hit against the flanked creature, it provokes an attack of opportunity from your ally.

Paired Opportunists (Combat, Teamwork)

Spoiler:

You know how to make an enemy pay for lax defenses.

Benefit: Whenever you are adjacent to an ally who also has this feat, you receive a +4 circumstance bonus on attacks of opportunity against creatures that you both threaten. Enemies that provoke attacks of opportunity from your ally also provoke attacks of opportunity from you so long as you threaten them (even if the situation or an ability would normally deny you the attack of opportunity). This does not allow you to take more than one attack of opportunity against a creature for a given action.

[EvilMinion]

As a note: Outflank and Paired Opportunist don't work so well together.... if only due to the fact Paired Opportunist only works if your ally is adjacent to you, whereas Outflank requires them and you to be flanking (ie: on opposite non-adjacent sides)
Typically you will never be able to do both unless you have 4 people all flanking one critter.

[Veldebrand]

So there isn't much disagreement with my assertions?

I just want to go into PFS play confident that I won't have contentious table variation.

[dunebugg]

Butterfly's Sting gives up your crit. Outflank activates on a SCORED critical hit. So no, they don't get an AoO with free crit. Outflank will, however, let you get an AoO after your buddy takes his free crit on his turn. Paired Opporunist requires you to be adjacent for all benefits. So it can't be used with Outflank for shenanigans.

[JohnF]

Veldebrand wrote:

So there isn't much disagreement with my assertions?

I just want to go into PFS play confident that I won't have contentious table variation.

Oh, you're going to get table variation. The very fact that you find it necessary to raise the question means that there is some uncertainty in the phrasing.

But, in any case, to answer your points:

I believe you're flat out wrong on (1). Butterfly Sting grants a critical on the ally's next melee attack that hits. I don't think an AoO qualifies.

I also think you're wrong on (3). The requirement to be adjacent to your ally is necessary to get any of the benefit; if you aren't adjacent, then you don't qualify for anything.

[Serum]

JohnF wrote:

I believe you're flat out wrong on (1). Butterfly Sting grants a critical on the ally's next melee attack that hits. I don't think an AoO qualifies.

Unless you've taken feats to change it, every single Attack of Opportunity is a melee attack. Period.

(1) is still wrong, since you are forgoing the effect of the critical hit, which, with Outflank, includes the AoO.

(2) should be fine.

(3) Paired Opportunist's second sentence refers to "your ally". It's already been defined in the previous sentence: the ally must have this feat and must be adjacent to you.

[JohnF]

Serum wrote:

JohnF wrote:

I believe you're flat out wrong on (1). Butterfly Sting grants a critical on the ally's next melee attack that hits. I don't think an AoO qualifies.

Unless you've taken feats to change it, every single Attack of Opportunity is a melee attack. Period.

(Careless editing: I thought I had emphasised next, not melee)

In the situation described, the attack from the AoO can not be the next one, as it takes place before the provoking event.

(And, as you point out, forgoing the critical hit prevents Outflank from triggering the AoO in the first place)

[Veldebrand]

Thanks for all the replies.

I guess with 1) I was looking at the first part of Butterfly's Sting too hard that said, "When you confirm a critical hit against a creature...", I guess the part about "you can choose to forgo the effect of the critical hit" could be interpreted as not confirming the crit in the first place, and I'll just assume that is how every GM will treat it.

As to 3), I think I've seen some arguments for the two parts (the +4 to attacks, and the free AOO) as being separate, but I'll just assume that that being adjacent is required. After further investigation in another ability that the designers said had two parts (gaze of flames) , I think Paired Opportunists is worded differently enough, (in this case the restriction is coming at the first sentence instead of the later sentences), that it's safe to assume every GM will treat it as requiring the two feat holders to be adjacent.

[Veldebrand]

JohnF wrote:

Serum wrote:

JohnF wrote:

I believe you're flat out wrong on (1). Butterfly Sting grants a critical on the ally's next melee attack that hits. I don't think an AoO qualifies.

Unless you've taken feats to change it, every single Attack of Opportunity is a melee attack. Period.

(Careless editing: I thought I had emphasised next, not melee)

In the situation described, the attack from the AoO can not be the next one, as it takes place before the provoking event.

(And, as you point out, forgoing the critical hit prevents Outflank from triggering the AoO in the first place)

The timing can still be done nicely with a readied action however.

All in all not a bad way to end the discussion. The two characters can have a powerful combo that needs to be set up, and it won't necessarily be auto kill from Chaining AOOs like I had originally thought the Butterfly/outflank feats synergized.

[Serum]

Fair enough. I don't think that's the right way of looking at it, though. The Ally's hypothetical AoO would still be his next attack.

Summary for 1):
If you confirm your crit and decide to use Butterfly Sting to allow your ally to crit, he does not gain the Outflank AoO, as you've given up all effects of your crit.

When your ally automatically confirms his crit due to your Butterfly Sting, you do get your Outflank AoO.

[Veldebrand]

Serum wrote:

Fair enough. I don't think that's the right way of looking at it, though. The Ally's hypothetical AoO would still be his next attack.

Now I'm gonna have to look up AOOs really quick to see when the timing happens. Not for this particular case, but in general.

EDIT:

So I looked up Attacks of Opportunity, and the only thing I see about timing is posted below.

I was under the impression that AOOs occurred before the triggering action; am I imagining things?

SECOND EDIT:

I guess it doesn't get resolved prior to the triggering action, it simply interrupts whatever the triggering action was, and then is fully resolved before returning to the normal flow. So the premise that the AOO wouldn't hit after the triggering action is incorrect. It would get resolved immediately after the triggering action. So the next hit would indeed be the AOO. However, the point is moot because more than likely any GM would rule that Butterfly's Sting forgo's the effect of the critical hit, and any benefits that might be derived from it (outflank AOO).

Quote:

Making an Attack of Opportunity

An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).

[Ilthuryn]

Let's see what we have got:

Butterfly’s Sting (Critical) wrote:

Benefit: When you confirm a critical hit against a creature, you can choose to forgo the effect of the critical hit and grant a critical hit to the next ally who hits the creature with a melee attack before the start of your next turn. Your attack only deals normal damage, and the next ally automatically confirms the hit as a critical.

Butterfly's Sting-Link

Outflank (Combat, Teamwork) wrote:

Benefit: Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature, your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4. In addition, whenever you score a critical hit against the flanked creature, it provokes an attack of opportunity from your ally.
Outflank-Link

FAQ wrote:

Critical Hits: Is there a difference between "scoring a critical hit" and "confirming a critical hit"?

No, they mean the same thing. However, the preferred rules language is "confirming a critical hit"...
FAQ-Link

and last but not least:

Attack Roll wrote:

An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals or beats the target’s Armor Class, you hit and deal damage.

Attack Roll-Link

Let's summarize:

We have our Attack Roll and and score/confirm a critical hit. Before damage is done we decide to forgo the critical effect (damage multiplied). Now we deal nocrit damage.
This is all part of our attack and counts as one occurrence or event. An AoO can "interrupt" before an attack is resolved not between a hit and damage. (eg: I want to shot my bow in melee - before you know wether you hit or not you get that AoO) Actions in combat-Link
In some occasions it even can stop that attack due death or a failed spell.
In our case we already hit the target and deal damage in one go!

Now we come to the interrupting AoO. Even if we would have another move action or another attack action it is the Ally's turn to resolve his AoO.
Since he is the next ally who hits the creature with a melee attack he get's that critical damage effect! Further he gets yet another critical confirmation(which is very open for discussion wether this would trigger another Outflank AoO)! Remember: The effect of a critical hit is not the critical confirmation, it is the multiplying damage!

[Java Man]

Thank you, we have all been waiting nine years for that analysis.