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(Please no Spoilers from after the Chase for Trina)
Last session we had the chase for Trina on the rooftops in Korvosa.
It didn't go well.
75% of the PCs were frustrated with inability with 50% of the Players getting frustrated with the whole scene and 25% of the Players just pushing the chair back form the table and all-but quitting -- calling "shenanigans" on the whole affair.
After the session we agreed the the idea was great -- but the design was poor.
How did other groups experience this scene?
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My take is that the DCs were way too high. (If you just go 1 roof for free, you'll never catch Trina who has a 4 roof headstart.)
A much stronger design, I feel, would have been if a PC could attempt a series of "shortcuts" based not on different Ability-Score Skills but the same Ability Score Skills: 3 Wisdom checks OR 3 DEX checks -- as opposed to 1 WIS, 1 DEX & 1 STR. No PC-build will be able to succeed at all of the checks in order to catch up with Trina the way it is designed. And Trina still has her spells to help her escape if a couple PCs get close to her.
Also, I don't like the arrow-straight arrangement of roofs. A square grid, maybe 15x15 would be great -- more realistic and funner. Plus, when PCs (or Trina) fall of a roof, they can't just automatically know to run in a straight line. This eliminates the incredibly stupid design that the streets are so crowded that, cough-cough, one has to make a DEX or STR check just to move. (Who during the design process thought that idiot-idea made sense?!)
But maybe other groups experienced it differently than ours.
I think it could have been fun -- and it is a great idea. It just has a few critically bad mistakes in design.
Had we felt it were possible to catch Trina during the chase it would've been fun, even with her escape. But not only was 75% of the Players sure it was impossible during the chase, they were all frustrated with the whole scene.
Well, we had a ninja in our group...so this made it a little easier to catch her (which they did eventually)
Although i dont believe anyone in our group or Trinia fell off the rooftops so i cant help you much there (although if the streets weren't crowded with people the ninja would have rocked it and then jumped up to a rooftop ahead of her)
I do like the idea of making checks to bypass obstacles on the rooftops...so much that i bought the chase deck made by gamemastery that follow the same rules from this chase (and the same rules for pathfinder rpg)
Sadly, i know I can't be of much help from my experience in this chase.
BTW What was your group composition?
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Yeah, we ALL fell -- multiple times. (One PC went -9 HP on a CON score of 10 from falling.) And our rolls were average -- not poor but neither great.
I'd love to hear how other groups experienced it. What are the chances someone will copy/ paste some archived discussions on this topic from older Threads when CotCT was still new? I don't want to risk looking for fear of spoilers but there had to be, I figure, several good posts and a couple Threads that dealt with this from 4 years ago. (THANKS in advance to anyone with a few free minutes and a willingness to help a fellow gamer)
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For us, 2 PCs fell off the roof every attempt and after 3 tries just quit and tried muscling through the crowd (1 PC went into neg HP from repeated falls). 1 PC (mine) fell off the roof 3 of 4 tries, stuggled to make the STR check to get back up each time, and at the very end just went one roof-top at a time hoping the the final PC would get close.
That PC, who fell only once, took a conservative approach and stayed 4 roof-tops behind Trina the whole time until she somehow fell after trying two instead of one rooftops. Thus, he became two roof-tops behind her and on her turn she promptly cast Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter on him sending him prone for essentially the remainder of the chase.
We used a 25 point buy and were 3rd level for the chase. The PCs compliment each other well as a group -- that is, we've got each Ability Score and major Skill covered as a group, but again, the problem I observed with the design is that for a PC to catch Trina he or she must have several good Scores and plenty of Skill ranks. One can't depend on just one good Ability Score and a couple related Skills to get close to Trina.
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PCs:
LG Aasimar Paladin of Iomedae (fell every time, called "shenanigans" at the crowed, got frusted, pushed chair away from table in good humored disgust)
CG Human Fighter, 2-weapon (stayed on the roof most the time, got closest to Trina then succombed to Tasha's humor -- was the Player who didn't have much of a problem with the design)
NG Dragon-blooded Sorcerer (fell every time and almost died, went to -9 HP, never got to roof #4, couldn't get through the crowd even to ground-floor #4)
LE Fetchling Inquisitor of Hell & Rogue ME (started scene on roof #1 while PCs were inside tenement -- I was watching the back door and remembered, just in time, about Korvosa's roofs so climbed up. Started chase only 3 rooftops behind Trina, she on #4, me on #1, other PCs on #0. I fell more often than not and never came within 5 rooftops from Trina after the surprise round -- she beat me in initiative)
CG Aasimar Cleric (a group-run healbot PC -- not really much of a character, just a healbot that we all run equally -- this PC just went 1 roof at a time, never rolled)
I didn't use any purchased cards; I made my own, and I made sure every card had an 'easy' skill check (DC 15) along with a harder one based on a different skill.
I'd love to say my balanced cards worked perfectly, but my entire chase was the gnome rogue moving two cards with ease to come up 1 behind Trinia, Trinia fumbling and falling to the ground, and then getting caught before she got another action.
It was a huge anticlimax, but I can definitely see serious problems if the cards aren't designed extremely carefully. And I can't say whether or not mine were.
Back in the days, when I ran this, I created cards with 3 different checks with different DCs. Each card had an easy, a moderate and a hard DC, with different rewards depending on the check. My players had a blast and still remember the chase as one of the memorable moments in our gaming table.
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I was a player in the game when our group did it. There were multiple choices on the cards, I remember. We had a druid cast entangle, and there were some other things done as well. Short story, we eventually caught up to her. She fell off the roof on her last check, and my wizard happened to be on the same roof, dove along the roof and caught her by the wrist before she fell, one-handed. The epic-ness of that scene remains with me.
**EDIT** Wow, thread necro, much? Apologies.
Well, since it was necro'ed anyway..
When I ran it, the whole scene was over almost before it began, as the sorcerer immediately cast sleep and Trinia failed her save :)
I used the Chase Card for this encounter, and the party had a blast.
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This scene actually turned out to be the climax of the whole 1st chapter.
I used a customized set of chase rules based on those from the book and those in the Game Mastery Guide. I also created my own narrative 'legs' of the chase (I don't use cards) with my own combination of skills and DCs created with my specific players in mind. Finally, I added an assassin in simultaneous pursuit of Trinia to give the slow, heavily armored fighter something to fight and feel a part of the scene.
I also didn't have Trinia use any spells like hideous laughter to foil the player characters. For me it makes no sense for the player characters to catch [up to] her only to have her escape. If she got away, I and the players would have been left thinking "what was the point of all that?"
I had one player character fall. I allowed him to make Perception/Wisdom checks to keep up with the chase on the ground as he maneuvered through the maze of alleyways on the ground. I only had three jumps in the whole chase, and the heroes caught her just before the second one. Our wizard and cleric stayed on her heals most of the time, and the wizard slowed her down with a summoned air elemental.
Below are my augmented chase rules. They're still evolving but they have worked pretty well.
Each round of the chase you will be presented with two different obstacles in the form of skill checks. You must navigate one of the obstacles of your choosing by beating the DC of the skill check in order to continue the chase. It takes a move action to navigate an obstacle in this way, so it is possible to move past two obstacles per round. In addition if you fail to navigate an obstacle, then you can automatically advance past that obstacle in the next round as a move action.
Alternatively you can choose to move cautiously through an obstacle and navigate it without making the skill check. This method requires a full-round action.
On the other hand, you can choose to move recklessly through an obstacle, but this method is more difficult and riskier. Navigating an obstacle recklessly requires a swift action, and you must successfully navigate the obstacle as well as abstractly beat the DC of its alternate. If you fail to beat both skill checks you cannot advance past the obstacle. However, if you fail both skill checks you become stuck and must use a full-round action to get back into the chase. Using a full-round action to get back in the chase does not advance you past the obstacle and other penalties may apply as well—like falling damage.
You can find the 'legs' of the chase I used in this thread.
Finally, if I could give one piece of advice for running chases, it would be to run chases completely in the narrative, without chase cards and miniatures. Other's experiences will surely be different, but to me a chase is so fast-paced I don't want players to feel like they have time to count squares and think about optimal positioning.
This chase scene rewards characters who have skills like acrobatics, climb, escape artist. I feel like not many players select these skills because they aren't used all the time. This makes characters who chose those skills feel very useful :)
And yeah, it sucks when players don't have those skills, but players can't be good at everything; they need to learn how to deal with things. My party had no one who was good at those skills. But the determined paladin was determined (and rolled well). The druid had spider climb prepared. The wizard in our party just cast blindness on her and she could no longer run. The wizard also had levitate which helped with the falling.
Majenko poisoned stinged Trinia in round 1 in my game on Sunday. Failed the saving throw by 2 points and fell into unconsiousness. Threw away the rest of the notes for the chase encounter. Threw in backup plan of a few Cerulean Order thugs who were seeking out Trinia and spotted the rooftop activity.
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Such is the life of a Dungeon Master my friend--long hours of preparation followed by quick thinking and ad-libbing when it all goes out the window.
My players had a blast playing knivesies with Devargo and never got to (what I considered) the fun stuff. On the other hand they missed out on a load of treasure and experience that I was able to pass out in other encounters of my own design.
The party diplomacied/bribed Devargo in my game. They were too hesitant for violence but felt really conflicted when Majenko telepathically pleaded for help and Devargo kept smacking the cage (I admit that was mostly to taunt the good PCs), so I gave them a sense motive check to figure out the dining thugs would run after minimal damage. Gave them some nerve to be heroic, get their money back, and avoid any cognitive dissonance.
NEXT book is a different story, though! BAHAHA!