Witch Archetype: Binder


Homebrew and House Rules


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The following is an archetype I'm working on for my home campaign setting for the witch class. While this uses the terms "binder" and "vestige", it is not an attempt at converting the class from the tome of magic.

Witch Archetype: Binder

The primary issues I'm concerned about at the moment are the "costs" of the Children of the Grave ability, the mechanics behind harvesting the vestiges, as well the following question: Are the benefits gained worth more, less, or roughly the same as the loss of the familiar, addition of a spell book, and the diminished spellcasting with the fluctuating nature of the Inner Reliquary taken into account?

I welcome and appreciate constructive comments and criticisms.


Holy tortured souls! I love it! The imagery of the vedtige motes is beautiful.

Doesn't seem too OP to me - the powers gained against the loss of the uber-utility of hexes is what I'm basing this on. I'm not sure you even need to diminish the spellcasting given the nature of the resource used and its generation (souls of the recently dead).

I'm a little unclear on the fluctuating power levels - the power is based on combined soul HD/levels (wording/terminology there needs to be consistent) within the Inner Reliquary, but these can be used for power, dropping the powerlevel until more souls are subsumed? It's a fantastic mechanic...

I like the drawing in of the souls from the dead and the negation of speak with dead that entails. The ritual seems way too lengthy for combat recharging - perhaps this was intentional? Maybe make a feat to make that possible - Rapid subsume soul or something similar...


3 people marked this as a favorite.

If you harvest only female vestiges, would that make you a "binder full of women"?


Can i be a witch named mitt romney and collect binders filled with women?


Ha! Beat you by 7 seconds!


AvalonXQ wrote:
Ha! Beat you by 7 seconds!

lol :)


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Holy tortured souls! I love it! The imagery of the vedtige motes is beautiful.

Thanks! I really liked the idea and got inspired by a few things I'd read or watched in movies of late, including the soul eater prestige class, some of the incarnum material, and a book by atlas games called Occult Lore (the gleaner class, specifically). I'd always wanted to try something with spirits, anyway.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Doesn't seem too OP to me - the powers gained against the loss of the uber-utility of hexes is what I'm basing this on. I'm not sure you even need to diminish the spellcasting given the nature of the resource used and its generation (souls of the recently dead).

That's a very valid point. In essence, the Inner Reliquary mechanic just replaces the familiar, and the added benefits take out a couple hex options. I'll go ahead and drop the diminished casting, as the original idea was that the spirits recovered their energy and you used it each day, but this version uses it as a depletable resource.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
I'm a little unclear on the fluctuating power levels - the power is based on combined soul HD/levels (wording/terminology there needs to be consistent) within the Inner Reliquary, but these can be used for power, dropping the powerlevel until more souls are subsumed? It's a fantastic mechanic...

I'll try to correct the phrasing tonight to make it more clear. The idea is 1/2 class levels if it has PC levels or 1/2 CR (round up on both) if it doesn't. Since hit dice can be significantly higher, I went with CR so it'd be more in line with the gains acquired through humanoids with levels.

Example of Fluctuating Power Levels: You're a 15th level binder (witch)you can have a minimum of 281 to keep the nondetection going and all earlier powers, with a maximum of 320 levels stored in the inner reliquary (you actually have 291 levels stored). As long as your Inner Reliquary doesn't drop below 281 levels, you gain the level 15-16 powers and earlier. If you used, say, 40 of them to make an 8d4+8 Vestige Strike, you'd now have 251 stored and your Inner Reliquary would grant you only the benefits of a 13-14th level Inner Reliquary.

Hope that explains it better instead of confusing more.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
I like the drawing in of the souls from the dead and the negation of speak with dead that entails. The ritual seems way too lengthy for combat recharging - perhaps this was intentional? Maybe make a feat to make that possible - Rapid subsume soul or something similar...

The initial time-frame for the ritual is a bit long. I based the time for it off the Soul Eater's which was 1 minute, and went down to a full-round action, which mine does as well, though I added in the AoE full-round to draw in all vestiges in a 30 foot radius at 19th.

I could change the action required to: base (1st) full around action, provokes AoO; at 10th level as a standard action, provokes AoO; at 19th level, swift action, 30 foot radius, provokes AoO. Thoughts?


Yep that looks better. Makes it much more useful and attractive to those wishing to slay and play in combat rather than having to get all meditative and moody about it with a ritual after the event. I like the drawing of an AoO, though again a new feat ("Combat subsume") could negate the AoO.

Having said that, you may want to wait and see how other on the boards here feel about it, and how your group likes it. I can see both the in-combat version and lengthy ritual version making thematic sense - I just like the former a lot more. Reminds me of raising dead beasties on the fly with my Necromancer in Guild Wars all those years ago...

*I really like the 19th level power, just wish it was available sooner, but there are very good reasons why it is not...
Well done Da'ath.


I'll do just that, to give time for other folks to weigh in. After adopting your Dedicated Ossuarite for an option for my fanatical druid players, I was looking for more archetypes for my (fanatical) witch players with a similar theme.

I actually moved the 30-foot radius/standard action to the level 10 power for the time being and removed the attack of opportunity from the 19th-level (as a swift action). I wanted to limit the amount of vestiges they could collect at early levels, but I think the 1 minute ritual was really too much, like you suggested, and I think the fact the corpse gets a saving throw will prove to make collecting and spending the vestige levels more difficult.

And thanks for your input. I'm really happy with how it's turned out so far.


For Harvest Vestige : Corpses are objects. They don't normally get will saves. As such, what is the will save modifier for a corpse? I'm guessing you mean the former critters will save, but clarification would be good...Also this affects Speak with Dead, what about Raise Dead/Resurrection effects, Clone, Create Undead, etc...

Also, you haven't followed this up: "a binder can also add spells found in another binder's grimoire to her own (see Magic)." I'm guessing that you mean to use the standard wizard version.

I'd also be slightly concerned about the power level of the effects - just on paper figuring, I would be hard pressed to call the trade offs from a normal witch worth it...and keeping your vestige count up is going to be very challenging... the most potent effect available is free quicken, but at 20 harvested corpses a shot, that's going to be very expensive. Meanwhile, the loss of a familiars action economy advantage is actually quite significant.


pad300 wrote:
For Harvest Vestige : Corpses are objects. They don't normally get will saves. As such, what is the will save modifier for a corpse? I'm guessing you mean the former critters will save, but clarification would be good...Also this affects Speak with Dead, what about Raise Dead/Resurrection effects, Clone, Create Undead, etc...

I believe I've corrected the phrasing issues. In addition, I removed the saving throw, as you have a very valid point, especially when I compared it to the similar mechanic the harvesting was based on to begin with.

pad300 wrote:
Also, you haven't followed this up: "a binder can also add spells found in another binder's grimoire to her own (see Magic)." I'm guessing that you mean to use the standard wizard version.

I believe this is now corrected, primarily by removing the "see magic" reference which was a relic. In essence, a witch using a grimoire may learn new spells in a similar manner to wizards, i.e. copying other binder's/warlocks/etc. grimoires, scrolls, research, and so on. I've used "grimoires" for several of my witch archetypes which remove the familiar feature.

pad300 wrote:
I'd also be slightly concerned about the power level of the effects - just on paper figuring, I would be hard pressed to call the trade offs from a normal witch worth it...and keeping your vestige count up is going to be very challenging... the most potent effect available is free quicken, but at 20 harvested corpses a shot, that's going to be very expensive. Meanwhile, the loss of a familiars action economy advantage is actually quite significant.

That's another good point. I'm hoping I've addressed it in the revision after reading your post. I've done two things: 1. removed the saving throw for the corpse and 2. set the levels "harvested" at full instead of half.

Thanks for the input!


I totally agree re: dropping the souls' save and keeping the HD at full rather than half. Kinda echoes my concerns outlined in the PM I sent you re: PCs being stymied trying to power up... Looking good! :)


As a further suggestion, I would simplify the harvesting of reliquary levels mechanic to be just the former CR of the target corpse. With your current rules, consider the case of Vormaloth (Ancient Red Dragon, Sorceror 3 = CR 22). Who's vestige is currently worth 3 reliquary levels; "a number of reliquary levels equal to the character level (if the corpse possessed levels in a standard class) or the challenge rating of the corpse (if it possessed racial Hit Dice or levels in an NPC class)". Making it purely CR : "a number of reliquary levels equal to the challenge rating of the corpse ", simplifies the mechanic.

You could further extend this to the 1/2 the CL HD limit; "A creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the binder’s character level cannot provide a suitable vestige." would become "A creature that has fewer CR than half the binder’s character level cannot provide a suitable vestige." There are a number of low CR, high HD creatures, which could be abused with the current phrasing.


I just read your PM, looks like you sent it right after I hit the sack, lol. With any luck (once this is final), I'll soon be posting some more archetypes for the witch class:

Bone Collector: A witch archetype based off a 3.5 prestige class (loosely).
Ceremonial-style Magic: A witch archetype focused on circles and magic dealing with outsiders.
Tradition-based Witch: A witch that belongs to a tradition and typically a coven which worship a known entity (usually deific).
Warlock: A final revision to the warlock archetype I put together (it's still too hex-intensive, so I'm going to merge the patterns into a single ability similar to the Malediction entry).

I'm also working on finishing up the Primal Sorcerer Archetype, as there are some problems pointed out recently by TeShen and a Fighter Archetype that replaces a few class features to make the fighter a more well-rounded chap (Class Feature Additions: Battle Clarity from the Tome of Battle, Leader of Men, Skill Changes [4 + Int skills and a couple new class skills], and a limited form of Weapon Aptitude [at BAB +6, shifting your weapon focus/specialization/etc from one weapon to another you have weapon training with] from the Tome of Battle).


pad300 wrote:

As a further suggestion, I would simplify the harvesting of reliquary levels mechanic to be just the former CR of the target corpse. With your current rules, consider the case of Vormaloth (Ancient Red Dragon, Sorceror 3 = CR 22). Who's vestige is currently worth 3 reliquary levels; "a number of reliquary levels equal to the character level (if the corpse possessed levels in a standard class) or the challenge rating of the corpse (if it possessed racial Hit Dice or levels in an NPC class)". Making it purely CR : "a number of reliquary levels equal to the challenge rating of the corpse ", simplifies the mechanic.

You could further extend this to the 1/2 the CL HD limit; "A creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the binder’s character level cannot provide a suitable vestige." would become "A creature that has fewer CR than half the binder’s character level cannot provide a suitable vestige." There are a number of low CR, high HD creatures, which could be abused with the current phrasing.

I agree & will revise it to that. Thanks!


It has been a long while since I even glanced at this thread, but the other day I noticed something I should update (which I did ages ago in my setting's version).

The numbers for the pools were unnecessarily inflated. I reduced the pools and costs. Mathematically, everything is the exact same as it was before, but the top end of the pool dropped from 400 to 80 to measure reliquary points. It just means you're dealing with smaller numbers, which is a good thing.

Witch Archetype - Binder

I should probably add in a random roll for the personality of the Gestalt. The idea was that the personality would change as the reliquary gained and lost significant points (i.e. enough to reduce or increase its level), not so much to be a pick the personality based on the benefit like familiars are.


Heh. Do you know I have no recollection of posting on this thread nor the PM I apparently sent? Which means I get to look again at the latest version without prejudice!!! Fantastic!!!

Da-ath:
My revised Dedicated Ossuarite will appear soon as the Ossuarite under my 3PP Forest Guardian Press...


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

Heh. Do you know I have no recollection of posting on this thread nor the PM I apparently sent? Which means I get to look again at the latest version without prejudice!!! Fantastic!!!

** spoiler omitted **

Ha! It really has been a long time. I see you're as diligent about deleting old PMs as I am - that is, not at all.

Speaking of your Ossuarite, could you toss me a link to the product? I meant to check that out, but apparently forgot. Halloween is always a hectic time with kids in the house.

Edit: Speaking of kids, Easter is tomorrow and my daughter will be up before the sun, waiting to hunt some eggs. Time for bed.=)


I worry that a level 1 binder will kill a bunch of goblins and get a full reliquary and then wreck some fool villain with no save using vestige strike.

E(8d4+8)=28 damage

That is a pretty dead CR 1-3 villain.

I will also note that at later levels, the ability becomes less and less useful as the damage it does becomes less and less relevant (but still pretty good).

I would rebalanced the ability by putting a cap on the amount of points you can spend equal to 1+1/2 binder level (so the damage possible actually caps out at 11d4+11 at level 20).

Essence infusion is also too good. At higher levels, that is starting to look like a bunch of free quickened spells to me. If I have 60 reliquary levels then I am inclined to not give two damns if I am spending 4 reliquary levels. I think there might be something to be said about limiting this use to a certain number of times per day in addition to the level point cost. That or you can change the math for it. Like have it cost the caster level modification x4 so a +1 costs 4 levels and a +4 costs 16 levels.


Insightful as always. Thanks for pointing that out to me - with solutions, no less.

I'm adding your suggestions now, albeit slowly. My daughter is very bored at the moment and I'm apparently the best toy in the house.


Both corrections have been added. I changed the math on Essence Infusion, as I couldn't quite getting the wording on a limit per day & dual cost amounts right - it came out very awkward and clunky.

Thanks again!


A father is always the best toy, man.

And thanks.


Excaliburproxy wrote:
A father is always the best toy, man.

Agreed 100%.

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