Question about Beastmorph, Mindchemist, and cognatogens.


Rules Questions


There is a question at my game about whether Beastmorph works with cognatogens- specifically with the Mindchemist archetype whose cognatogen ability replaces the standard Alchemist's Mutagen ability. The Beastform Mutagen ability specifically mentions that it work's off "a beastmorph’s mutagen". Since a Mindchemist/Beastmorph doesn't necessarily have "Mutagens" (unless they take it as a discovery) it could be interpreted that they cannot use the Beastform Mutagen ability (which obviously makes Beastmorph a useless archetype combo for them). However, the cognatogen discovery description says it "works just like the mutagen ability" and "All limitations of mutagens apply to cognatogens as if they were the same substance". THAT can be interpreted to say Beastform works just fine with cognatogens (in fact, that is the view of what discussions I've found about it on this board). But even then one could say that it still requires having the "mutagen" ability in the first place, that is Mindchemists could not also be Beastmorphs without taking "mutagen" as a discovery- they could then trigger Beastform with their cognatogens. Although that seems to be arguing semantics rather than the intention which I think is: cognatogen = mutagen therefore Mindchemist + Beastmorph works just fine. So the question is- can Beastmorphs use their abilities with cognatogens regardless of whether they have the mutagen ability?


I would say that they don't work together. I think a plain reading of the archetypes support this, but my main reasoning isn't the specific limitations of the crunch. Beastmorph improves the alchemist's mutagens to enhance his physical capabilities. The mindchemist though is focused on enhancing his mental capabilities. I think the goals of each archetype are fundamentally at odds and trying to combine them diminishes the flavor of both. Now, if the mindchemist goes ahead and takes the mutagen discovery, then sure, mix beastmorph in there, but it would only apply to mutagens, not cognatogens.


Mike Lindner wrote:
I would say that they don't work together. I think a plain reading of the archetypes support this, but my main reasoning isn't the specific limitations of the crunch. Beastmorph improves the alchemist's mutagens to enhance his physical capabilities. The mindchemist though is focused on enhancing his mental capabilities. I think the goals of each archetype are fundamentally at odds and trying to combine them diminishes the flavor of both. Now, if the mindchemist goes ahead and takes the mutagen discovery, then sure, mix beastmorph in there, but it would only apply to mutagens, not cognatogens.

That is a good point. I hadn't considered the thematics behind both archetypes. Beastmorph and Mindchemist are definitely physical vs. mental so limiting Beastform to strictly MUTAGENS makes sense in that regard. But there's still the rules side to consider where they make a point to say cognatogens should be treated the same as mutagens. So there's still the crunch vs. fluff issue. I'm fine with making things work different for the thematic issues you brought up (ie- make the crunch match the fluff) but it'd be nice to have it clarified from an official source one way or another.

Silver Crusade

There's no reason that you couldn't take both, but remember:

1st: You must take the mutagen discovery to even use your mutagens

2nd: You cannot combine mutagens and cognatogens and Beastmorph only functions with mutagens.


Cognatogen is effectively the same thing as a mutagen, by the quotes you provided. Beastmorph works with it just fine.

Whether you like the thematics or not is a whole other thing.

Also, allow me to provide a thematic counter-example.


As for the rules side...

Mindchemist Archetype wrote:
Cognatogen: At 1st level, a mindchemist learns how to create a cognatogen, as per the cognatogen discovery. This ability replaces the mutagen class ability (a mindchemist cannot create mutagens unless he selects mutagen* as a discovery)."

First off, the mindchemist archetype is replacing the class ability, not removing the mutagen discovery from the class. So there really is nothing different between a mindchemist who then takes the mutagen discovery and any other alchemist who takes the cognatogen discovery.

Ultimate Magic wrote:
Cognatogen (Su): The alchemist gains the ability to create a cognatogen, a mutagen-like mixture that heightens one mental ability score at the expense of a physical ability score. If the cognatogen enhances his Intelligence, it applies a penalty to his Strength. If it enhances his Wisdom, it applies a penalty to his Dexterity. If it enhances his Charisma, it applies a penalty to his Constitution. Otherwise, this ability works just like the mutagen ability (including the natural armor bonus). Anytime the alchemist would prepare a mutagen, he may instead prepare a cognatogen. All limitations of mutagens apply to cognatogens as if they were the same substance—an alchemist can only maintain one mutagen or cognatogen at a time, a cognatogen that is not in an alchemist's possession becomes inert, drinking a cognatogen makes a non-alchemist sick, and so on. When the effect of the cognatogen ends, the alchemist takes 2 points of ability damage to the ability score penalized by the cognatogen. The infuse mutagen discovery and the persistent mutagen class ability apply to cognatogens.

Emphasis mine.

Between the fact that an alchemist with the cognatogen discovery does not have the ability to create mutagens altered or replaced, but can create both along with the sections I bolded above, I think this shows that a cognatogen is not a mutagen with modified properties. It is its own mechanical element, separate from a mutagen although similar.

"All limitations of mutagens apply to cognatogens as if they were the same substance. . ." The word limitations is key here. This is the closest the description comes to equating mutagens and cognatogens, but it only applies the limitations placed on mutagens to cognatogens, not any possible benefit you can apply to mutagens. It also goes on to list the specific limitations it refers to, so as to remove any further doubt about what it means.

Beastmorph Archetype wrote:
Beastmorphs study the anatomy of monsters, learning how they achieve their strange powers. They use their knowledge to duplicate these abilities, but at the cost of taking on inhuman shapes when they use mutagens.

This specifically says that the benefits apply to mutagens and in fact everything beastmorph adds to the alchemist class is called a mutagen. Since mutagens are not cognatogens these benefits do not apply when using a cognatogen.

If cognatogens were intended to be mutagens with slightly different effects, then the developers would have simply added an ability that alters how mutagens work rather than adding a new, separate discovery.


I was wondering the exact same thing. I was leaning toward no, based on the Mindchemist text stating that "This ability replaces the mutagen class ability (a mindchemist cannot create mutagens unless he selects mutagen* as a discovery)."

To me, it's similar to all the Fighter Archetypes replacing Weapon Training and expecting that Gloves of Dueling will improve their damage.


Well, I do expect it to improve their damage. Otherwise those archetypes are literally pointless.

"I want to be the best archer a fighter can be!"

"Well, then I guess you'd better steer clear of the Archer Fighter; his attack and damage lags 2 points behind a vanilla fighter's."


Mike Lindner wrote:

As for the rules side...

<-snip->

Excellent breakdown, Mike. Barring word-of-god saying otherwise, that seems to be a fairly definitive "no" to my question then. Unfortunately that means I have to change my character. :p


If your DM doesn't mind letting beastmorph work with cognatogen, regardless of the RAW, there's no need to change your character. Is he dead set on strict RAW (which I still think is unclear and could go either way, but you seem convinced)?


StreamOfTheSky wrote:
If your DM doesn't mind letting beastmorph work with cognatogen, regardless of the RAW, there's no need to change your character. Is he dead set on strict RAW (which I still think is unclear and could go either way, but you seem convinced)?

I agree the RAW could be a little clearer on this. Even with Mike's comments there's still some wiggle-room on letting Beastmorph work with cognatogens. For instance- they still grant the natural armor bonus so there IS a physical transformation aspect to cognatogens, so it can still work thematically (as well as the excellent Beast example you provided). In fact, the way the NA part is worded ("Otherwise, this ability works just like the mutagen ability (including the natural armor bonus)." emphasis added) could be said to imply the two abilities are interchangeable. But the bits Mike points out above ("mutagen-like" and "may instead prepare a cognatogen.") also imply an explicit difference. That, combined with Beastmorph repeatedly specifying "mutagen" for its abilities, makes me lean more towards saying it doesn't work rather than wanting to fight for saying it does.

Also- changing my character isn't that big of a deal. We're only 4th level and the Beastform ability has only come up once- and even then it wasn't relevant to the encounter- so losing it won't retroactively "change" anything. We're playing thru the Skull and Shackles AP and honestly I'd only chosen Beastmorph as a way to get a swim speed (which grants water-breathing since it's based on a polymorph effect). I'd completely overlooked Internal Alchemist which grants a much better and more accessible way of dealing with underwater adventures right at first level. So I think I'll try to convince my DM to let me exchange BM for IA.


I would not suggest combining the archetype that lets you buff your Int score with the one that removes your ability to add int to damage rolls.

Just my opinion...


I don't want to beat this into the dirt, but I do want to respond to one point rather generally since similar arguments come up sometimes and I think it's worth mentioning.

Foxwander wrote:
In fact, the way the NA part is worded ("Otherwise, this ability works just like the mutagen ability (including the natural armor bonus)." emphasis added) could be said to imply the two abilities are interchangeable.

Just because ability A "works just like" ability B doesn't mean you can substitute ability A for B in general. It's like if I have an ability that requires me to cast the spell protection from evil I can't use it if all I have is protection from good even though protection from good says "This spell functions like protection from evil, except . . ." It is still a different spell, i.e. a different mechanical element in the game.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

I would not suggest combining the archetype that lets you buff your Int score with the one that removes your ability to add int to damage rolls.

Just my opinion...

Losing Throw Anything would take Int damage away from thrown splash weapons but not from bombs (that's built into the Bombs ability). So far I haven't used any other splash weapons but that may become more important in the future- so yeah, I may want to rethink that.

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