Section 15 OGL and Exhibit B items


Product Discussion

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Founder, Legendary Games & Publisher, Necromancer Games

richard develyn wrote:
Now if I've understood you correctly, I don't think it was your intention for this to happen.

It was.

richard develyn wrote:
Indeed, having a citation now to just the TOH itself with all its authors could easily be much smaller. I'd be interested to know what your view is on this or if you can think of an alternative.

There is no alternative and while it could be smaller it would not meet the goals that were a part of what got us permission to use the content which you, as a user of the license, are required to follow.

richard develyn wrote:
In my opinion, citing 98 creatures that you don't use obfuscates any real citation / accreditation you might want to make, though having said that I suppose you could separate it out.

Thats why you have to do each one. The fact you have so many is simply an amazing tribute to how awesome the ToH is and what a staple it is to post 3E gaming. I love seeing every AP installment and checking the OGL in the back and seeing 5 or 6 ToH monsters in each one. I love that people use the content.

richard develyn wrote:
Anyway, my first question is - is there an alternative to this?

Nope. You simply have to include all of them. The fact the use of our content that we licensed is so pervasive is a tribute to the greatness of the product and of the original creatures, which yet again justifies the credit to the original authors.

Clark

Founder, Legendary Games & Publisher, Necromancer Games

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richard develyn wrote:

I've just updated the PDF, by the way, to cite the monsters alphabetically and to remove a few duplicates.

Richard

I wouldnt take liberties. You have to duplicate it as is, not reorganized as you want it to be.

You are making this way harder than you need to. And as a result potentially doing it wrong. As the license holder, I would be required to enforce it and no one wants to do that. Just do it like you are supposed to and stop wasting time trying to shorten something that is long for a reason.

Founder, Legendary Games & Publisher, Necromancer Games

Brian E. Harris wrote:
You could easily maintain that good relationship by just complying with the requirements of the OGL, inconvenient though you may find them, and not worrying about ways to attempt to circumvent them.

I really really really agree with this. I'm not saying you are acting in bad faith or anything Richard. You are just spending way too much energy on something you can't circumvent. And that you shouldn't try to circumvent. This is how we play with the content we have been given. These are the rules for its use. Just do it.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Clark Peterson wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Ok, strange question. Is section 15 recursive?

What I mean is, lets say I write an adventure that uses the Aurmvorax. If I cite an adventure it is used in, do I still need to cite the TOH?

(aside, When I put something up, I try to track down primary sources.)

The answer to your question is yes, you do. BUT only because you cite an adventure it is in and that adventure should include in its section 15 a cite to ToH. If you only wanted to use the monster, you could just cite directly to the ToH and not bother with the adventure. If you are also citing to an adventure, then you would need to duplicate that adventure's section 15 in full.

Remember, you can always just go to the original source.

But you don't have to duplicate an entry--here is what I mean: if you cite a product that uses the aurmvorax and so its section 15 has it in there (and thus yours does) you don't have to put it in twice. as long as it is there once that is fine.

So it is recursive, in my view. But not duplicative.

Hi again Clark. I have another question (since you offered - please feel free to tell me to buzz off if you regret the offer :p):

I expressed the view above that the OGL was not recursive - I had considered the requirement in clause 6 to include "the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any OGC" to be referring to the books you directly cited, not to their entire section 15. Given this isnt your view nor that of the various 3PP who have chimed in, I was clearly wrong about that. The reason I'd formed that view was (partly) from looking at the section 15 of The Murmuring Fountain which cites the PF Core Rulebook but not the Book of Experimental Might (which is listed in the PF Core Rulebook section 15) nor the Tome of Horrors.

Would you mind clarifying that for me? If the OGL is recursive, shouldnt every entry in the PF Core Rules's section 15 be included in The Murmuring Fountain's section 15?

Dark Archive

Clark Peterson wrote:
Brian E. Harris wrote:
You could easily maintain that good relationship by just complying with the requirements of the OGL, inconvenient though you may find them, and not worrying about ways to attempt to circumvent them.
I really really really agree with this. I'm not saying you are acting in bad faith or anything Richard. You are just spending way too much energy on something you can't circumvent. And that you shouldn't try to circumvent. This is how we play with the content we have been given. These are the rules for its use. Just do it.

I've really no idea how to progress after what you've just said there, Clark.

I mean, it can be quite difficult to tell the difference between asking questions and "trying to circumvent".

I'd love to "just do it", by the way, but I'm unsure about some aspects of this. Had I just gone and done it, I would have re-arranged the entries in section 15, not because it suited me, or because I was trying to circumvent anything, but because having learned that you can remove duplicates, which breaks the idea of having to cite each section 15 *exactly*, it would never have crossed my mind that rearranging the entries would be a problem.

Ok, well, I know better about that. Can I ask a few more questions now? In good faith? Without wanting to circumvent anything?

Incidentally, being an old 1st ed player myself, I think what you did with TOH was great. I agree that it's good to see these old monsters cited in the back of new adventures, showing what a great legacy we have. I'll never understand why each 3PP adventure is going to have to cite 98 monsters which *aren't* used, but that's just my opinion, not me trying to circumvent anything :-)

Richard

Dark Archive

Incidentally, I've updated the OGL PDF in the light of the latest advice I've been given. Section 15s of the core products are presented in the order that they appear as exhibit B, without rearranging any of the entries, and with duplicates removed.

Richard


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Clark Peterson wrote:
richard develyn wrote:
I've just updated the PDF, by the way, to cite the monsters alphabetically and to remove a few duplicates.

I wouldnt take liberties. You have to duplicate it as is, not reorganized as you want it to be.

You are making this way harder than you need to. And as a result potentially doing it wrong. As the license holder, I would be required to enforce it and no one wants to do that. Just do it like you are supposed to and stop wasting time trying to shorten something that is long for a reason.

Is there something wrong with listing the monsters alphabetically? I don't really understand the liberties being taken here.

Dark Archive

If I have to edit that OGL again I'll scream!

Richard :-)

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Liz Courts wrote:
richard develyn wrote:
@Chris Self. I take it you basically work for Paizo...
If there is a golem icon by the poster's name, they work for Paizo.

I thought that golem was there to watch what you write.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Clark Peterson wrote:
I wouldnt take liberties. You have to duplicate it as is, not reorganized as you want it to be.

Hold on, Clark, are you saying that when copying the Section 15 of a product you cite into your own product, you have to keep the citations in the same order listed, or you'll be in violation of the License?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
richard develyn wrote:

If I have to edit that OGL again I'll scream!

Richard :-)

Welcome to being a publisher! :D


1 person marked this as a favorite.
richard develyn wrote:

If I have to edit that OGL again I'll scream!

Richard :-)

Oh you are so cute. LOL! Re-edit is your middle name as a publisher. You better get used to that.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

LMPjr007 wrote:
richard develyn wrote:

If I have to edit that OGL again I'll scream!

Richard :-)

Oh you are so cute. LOL! Re-edit is your middle name as a publisher. You better get used to that.

Tru dat.

Dark Archive

I've been doing a lot of screaming lately - at Microsoft Word (2010). It seems to have a mind of its own when it comes to laying things out - and it crashes!

Maybe I should splash out on Publisher ...

Richard

Minister of Propaganda, Super Genius Games

richard develyn wrote:

I've been doing a lot of screaming lately - at Microsoft Word (2010). It seems to have a mind of its own when it comes to laying things out - and it crashes!

Maybe I should splash out on Publisher ...

Richard

If you're going to dive into publishing, I highly recommend getting a copy of Adobe InDesign. It makes typesetting books of all sorts infinitely easier. And at least here in the US they offer substantial discounts for students and if you have kids, you can use them to get the discount.

Liberty's Edge

R. Hyrum Savage wrote:
richard develyn wrote:

I've been doing a lot of screaming lately - at Microsoft Word (2010). It seems to have a mind of its own when it comes to laying things out - and it crashes!

Maybe I should splash out on Publisher ...

Richard

If you're going to dive into publishing, I highly recommend getting a copy of Adobe InDesign. It makes typesetting books of all sorts infinitely easier.

That was my first thought when I read this too. The thought of doing a professional layout with Word or Publisher makes me shudder. It can be done, but it's certainly not the best way to go, to say the least!

Dark Archive

Thanks for the advice.

I have actually succeeded with Word, but I'm not sure I would try it with anything bigger than 20-25 pages (which happily is all I'm aiming for).

Richard

Dark Archive

Ok, well, here, as promised, is the text version of everything *I* believe should go into section 15 of the OGL to allow you to use all of the Exhibit B Pathfinder Core Rule Books, to date, presented according to the latest information that was given in this forum.

I don't guarantee correctness, of course, but I would hope that if there were any mistakes then someone will come onto this forum and point them out.

All the best

Richard

---oOo---

Open Game License v 1.0a Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
System Reference Document. Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, based on material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.
Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. Copyright 2009, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Author: Jason Bulmahn, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, and Skip Williams.
The Book of Experimental Might. Copyright 2008, Monte J. Cook. All rights reserved.
Tome of Horrors. Copyright 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Authors: Scott Greene, with Clark Peterson, Erica Balsley, Kevin Baase, Casey Christofferson, Lance Hawvermale, Travis Hawvermale, Patrick Lawinger, and Bill Webb; Based on original content from TSR.
Pathfinder RPG Bestiary. Copyright 2009, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Author: Jason Bulmahn, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, and Skip Williams.
Basidirond from the Tome of Horrors, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Cave Fisher from the Tome of Horrors, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Lawrence Schick.
Crystal Ooze from the Tome of Horrors, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Dark Creeper from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Rik Shepard.
Dark Stalker from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Simon Muth.
Dracolisk from the Tome of Horrors, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Froghemoth from the Tome of Horrors, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Giant Slug from the Tome of Horrors, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Ice Golem from the Tome of Horrors, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene.
Iron Cobra from the Tome of Horrors, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Philip Masters.
Mite from the Tome of Horrors, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Ian Livingstone and Mark Barnes.
Nabasu Demon from the Tome of Horrors, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Russet Mold from the Tome of Horrors, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Shadow Demon from the Tome of Horrors, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Neville White.
Vegepygmy from the Tome of Horrors, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Wood Golem from the Tome of Horrors, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Authors Scott Greene and Patrick Lawinger.
Yellow Musk Creeper from the Tome of Horrors, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Albie Fiore.
Yellow Musk Zombie from the Tome of Horrors, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Albie Fiore.
Yeti from the Tome of Horrors, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Tome of Horrors III, © 2005, Necromancer Games, Inc; Author: Scott Greene, with Casey Christofferson, Erica Balsley, Kevin Baase, Lance Hawvermale, Travis Hawvermale, Ian S. Johnston, Patrick Lawinger, Nathan Paul, Clark Peterson, Greg Ragland, Robert Schwalb and Bill Webb.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Bonus Bestiary. Copyright 2009, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Author: Jason Bulmahn.
Tome of Horrors, Revised Edition. Copyright 2005, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Authors: Scott Greene, Clark Peterson, Erica Balsley, Kevin Baase, Casey Christofferson, Lance Hawvermale, Travis Hawvermale, Patrick Lawinger, Bill Webb; Based on original content from TSR.
Pathfinder RPG GameMastery Guide, © 2010, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Cam Banks, Wolfgang Baur, Jason Bulmahn, Jim Butler, Eric Cagle, Graeme Davis, Adam Daigle, Joshua J. Frost, James Jacobs, Kenneth Hite, Steven Kenson, Robin Laws, Tito Leati, Rob McCreary, Hal Maclean, Colin McComb, Jason Nelson, David Noonan, Richard Pett, Rich Redman, Sean K Reynolds, F. Wesley Schneider, Amber Scott, Doug Seacat, Mike Selinker, Lisa Stevens, James L. Sutter, Russ Taylor, Penny Williams, Skip Williams, Teeuwynn Woodruff.
Ear Seeker from the Tome of Horrors, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene and Erica Balsley, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Marid from the Tome of Horrors III, © 2005, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene.
Rot Grub from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene and Clark Peterson, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Advanced Player's Guide. Copyright 2010, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Author: Jason Bulmahn.
The Book of Fiends © 2003, Green Ronin Publishing; Authors: Aaron Loeb, Erik Mona, Chris Pramas, Robert J. Schwalb.
The Tome of Horrors II © 2004, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene.
Amphisbaena from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Angel, Monadic Deva from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Angel, Movanic Deva from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Aurumvorax from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Bat, Mobat from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Authors: Scott Greene and Clark Peterson, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Beetle, Slicer from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Blindheim from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Roger Musson.
Brownie from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Bunyip from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Dermot Jackson.
Crypt Thing from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Roger Musson.
Daemon, Ceustodaemon (Guardian Daemon) from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Ian McDowall.
Daemon, Derghodaemon from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Daemon, Hydrodaemon from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Daemon, Piscodaemon from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Death Worm from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene and Erica Balsley.
Decapus from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Jean Wells.
Demon, Nabasu from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Dragon Horse from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Dust Digger from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Forlarren from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott
Giant, Wood from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Wizards of the Coast.
Gloomwing from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Grippli from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Gryph from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Peter Brown.
Hangman Tree from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Hippocampus from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene and Erica Balsley, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Jubilex from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Kelpie from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Lawrence Schick.
Korred from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Leprechaun from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Magma ooze from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene.
Mihstu from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Mongrelman from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Necrophidius from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Simon Tillbrook.
Nereid from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Pech from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Phycomid from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Poltergeist from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Lewis Pulsipher.
Quickling from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Quickwood from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Sandman from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Roger Musson.
Scarecrow from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Roger Musson
Skulk from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Simon Muth.
Slime Mold from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Slithering Tracker from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Soul Eater from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by David Cook
Spriggan from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene and Erica Balsley, based on original material by Roger Moore and Gary Gygax.
Tenebrous Worm from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Tentamort from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Mike Roberts.
Tick, Giant & Dragon from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax
Troll, Ice from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Russell Cole.
Troll, Rock from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene.
Zombie, Juju from the Tome of Horrors, Revised © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary 2, Copyright 2010, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors Wolfgang Baur, Jason Bulmahn, Adam Daigle, Graeme Davis, Crystal Frasier, Joshua J. Frost, Tim Hitchcock, Brandon Hodge, James Jacobs, Steve Kenson, Hal MacLean, Martin Mason, Rob McCreary, Erik Mona, Jason Nelson, Patrick Renie, Sean K Reynolds, F. Wesley Schneider, Owen K.C. Stephens, James L. Sutter, Russ Taylor, and Greg A. Vaughan, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, and Skip Williams.
Anger of Angels. © 2003, Sean K Reynolds.
The Book of Hallowed Might. © 2002, Monte J. Cook.
Monte Cook’s Arcana Unearthed. © 2003, Monte J. Cook.
Path of the Magi. © 2002 Citizen Games/Troll Lord Games; Authors: Mike McArtor, W. Jason Peck, Jeff Quick, and Sean K Reynolds.
Skreyn’s Register: The Bonds of Magic. © 2002, Sean K Reynolds.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Ultimate Magic. © 2011, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Jason Bulmahn, Tim Hitchcock, Colin McComb, Rob McCreary, Jason Nelson, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Sean K Reynolds, Owen K.C. Stephens, and Russ Taylor.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Ultimate Combat. © 2011, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Dennis Baker, Jesse Benner, Benjamin Bruck, Jason Bulmahn, Brian J. Cortijo, Jim Groves, Tim Hitchcock, Richard A. Hunt, Colin McComb, Jason Nelson, Tom Phillips, Patrick Renie, Sean K Reynolds, and Russ Taylor.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary 3, © 2011, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors Jesse Benner, Jason Bulmahn, Adam Daigle, James Jacobs, Michael Kenway, Rob McCreary, Patrick Renie, Chris Sims, F. Wesley Schneider, James L. Sutter, and Russ Taylor, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, and Skip Williams.
Kobold Quarterly Issue 7, © 2008, Open Design LLC, www.koboldquarterly.com; Authors John Baichtal, Wolfgang Baur, Ross Byers, Matthew Cicci, John Flemming, Jeremy Jones, Derek Kagemann, Phillip Larwood, Richard Pett, and Stan!
Adherer from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Authors Scott Greene and Clark Peterson, based on original material by Guy Shearer.
Animal Lord from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Ascomid from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Atomie from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Axe Beak from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Carbuncle from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Authors Scott Greene, based on original material by Albie Fiore.
Caryatid Column from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Jean Wells
Demodand, Shaggy from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Demodand, Slimy from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Demodand, Tarry from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Dire Corby from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Jeff Wyndham
Disenchanter from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Roger Musson.
Dragon, Faerie from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Brian Jaeger and Gary Gygax.
Flail Snail from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Simon Tilbrook.
Flumph from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Ian McDowell and Douglas Naismith.
Foo Creature from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Greene, based on original material by Ian Livingstone
Huecuva from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Underworld Oracle.
Jackalwere from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Kamadan from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Nick Louth.
Kech from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Wolf-In-Sheep’s-Clothing from the Tome of Horrors, Revised, © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Baphomet from the Tome of Horrors Complete © 2011, Necromancer Games, Inc., published and distributed by Frog God Games; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Advanced Race Guide © 2012, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Dennis Baker, Jesse Benner, Benjamin Bruck, Jason Bulmahn, Adam Daigle, Jim Groves, Tim Hitchcock, Hal MacLean, Jason Nelson, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Owen K.C. Stephens, Todd Stewart, and Russ Taylor.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Ultimate Equipment © 2012, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Dennis Baker, Jesse Benner, Benjamin Bruck, Ross Byers, Brian J. Cortijo, Ryan Costello, Mike Ferguson, Matt Goetz, Jim Groves, Tracy Hurley, Matt James, Jonathan H. Keith, Michael Kenway, Hal MacLean, Jason Nelson, Tork Shaw, Owen KC Stephens, and Russ Taylor.


I've done a few things in Word, for home game consumption. Doesn't look bad, but it isn't probably ideal, but then again not doing it for general public consumption either.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
richard develyn wrote:

Thanks for the advice.

I have actually succeeded with Word, but I'm not sure I would try it with anything bigger than 20-25 pages (which happily is all I'm aiming for).

Richard

And this kind of makes me even more worried for what you are attempting. Richard if you are going to be serious about publishing, then you need to get a graphic designer for your projects who use professional tools. A good graphic designer will be the difference in a successful looking product and a not successful looking product, which means a sale for you. If you are going to spend any money to make sure you are putting a professional product, then spend it on the artwork and graphic design because that is the first thing people are going to see. A good looking product goes a LONG way. Hope this helps.

Dark Archive

I'm always grateful for advice.

I've seen quite a number of products now, both 3PP and Paizo, and numerous other systems, so I do have some idea of the standards I need to aim for. I understand what you mean about a good-looking product, though I do tend to think that sometimes people forget it's the writing that counts in the end.

Richard

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

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Richard, you're right that it's the writing that is, from an author's perspective, the real core content that you're producing. However, good, bad, or otherwise the presentation of a product has a great deal to do with whether anyone ever gives that (presumably) great writing a chance. That's why book covers are so important, in spite of the adage that "you can't judge a book by its cover." Why? Because people DO judge books by their covers. During the runs of Dragon and Dungeon magazine, they evaluated the predominant colors on cover art, regardless of what they pictured, and found that some colors consistently sold better than others.

Crazy? Perhaps, but all too real.

One of the things Paizo has been intentionally successful at doing is making its products a pleasure to read and to own. Ask Wes, James, Erik, or anyone else on staff and they'll tell you that (and have said as much numerous times on the boards).

Any product you sell, especially an adventure product but other products too, has a decent chance to not see all that much action at the game table. However, if the purchaser enjoys the experience of perusing it, they'll be a happy customer (and hopefully a repeat customer).

I'm not saying you should break the bank on graphic design to the point where you're losing money on every product, but I am saying you should definitely consider working with someone who has talent and skill in making a print product (including an electronic book) look good. It's an investment that is almost guaranteed to pay off.

I think the textual product we put out at Legendary Games is of absolutely top quality; however, I think the layout, cartography, and art we put into our products elevates the quality of the product as a whole to a level above what it would be with the printed word alone.

Could I interest people in buying something that I wrote or Clinton Boomer or Greg Vaughan or Neil Spicer wrote and sent out as Word files? Probably. Would I sell nearly as many or be justified in selling them at the same price as a professionally finished product? No.

There are places you can economize in how you do your business, but I would suggest that skimping on art and layout is not your best choice.

Liberty's Edge

Jason Nelson wrote:
There are places you can economize in how you do your business, but I would suggest that skimping on art and layout is not your best choice.

Could not have said it better myself!

Founder, Legendary Games & Publisher, Necromancer Games

Steve Geddes wrote:


Is there something wrong with listing the monsters alphabetically? I don't really understand the liberties being taken here.

Don't rearrange how someone else's section 15 is. Dont "fix" it, don't "make it better", don't alphabetize. Just do it how they did it. Its what the license says.

Founder, Legendary Games & Publisher, Necromancer Games

Alzrius wrote:


Hold on, Clark, are you saying that when copying the Section 15 of a product you cite into your own product, you have to keep the citations in the same order listed, or you'll be in violation of the License?

What does the OGL say you have to do?

Founder, Legendary Games & Publisher, Necromancer Games

richard develyn wrote:
Ok, well, here, as promised, is the text version of everything *I* believe should go into section 15 of the OGL to allow you to use all of the Exhibit B Pathfinder Core Rule Books, to date, presented according to the latest information that was given in this forum.

I dont know what you mean by "use all of the core rule books." You dont use the core rule books, you use the SRD.

Maybe I am just not understanding what you are trying to do.

Dark Archive

Hi guys,

I understand what you're saying.

I think ultimately there is a business balancing decision which we have to make when we enter into publishing about the type of product we're producing, the amount we're going to charge for it and the amount of money that we're going to invest.

I'm just entering this arena now and I have to say this is very much a side-line for me - it's not in any way my main source of income, it's my hobby.

I'm going to produce a small number of 20-25 page adventures, PDF only, which I will sell for $4. I'll produce 4 to start with, which will require an investment of maybe up to $700 - $400 on cover art, $300 on software. If I get my money back on this I'll carry on. If I don't, then I'll carry on writing them anyway but stop putting any money into it or publishing them. The main reason I'm doing this is for the love of it, but I would like it to pay for itself.

One of the reasons I pushed back on the "you must have a lawyer" line I was getting earlier, just as I would push back now on needing to employ a graphic designer or buy expensive publishing software, is because people like myself don't have that sort of money, and I think there should be a place in the market for hobbyists to self-publish.

At the end of the day, it is up to the consumer to send the message back to the publisher (of whatever size) that what they're producing is rubbish, by not buying it, but anyone who's prepared to put the effort in to write and publish should get the chance.

In terms of what you can do with Word, I think it's pretty good, actually, although clunky to use. It certainly produces PDFs for you (the 2010 version) and it isn't that expensive to buy.

This is a sample from the middle of my first adventure (still a work in progress, by the way, but almost finished now). As you can see, there's a few elements here which I've been able to lay out reasonably well (IMVHO). It certainly isn't up to the standard of products from bigger publishers, and I know it would be useless if I was actually wanting to sell a print product, but I think it otherwise compares pretty well to anything else I've seen:

http://www.qusheet.com/misc/The%20Firemaker%20p.11.pdf

In case anyone suggest the obvious, I did consider simply submitting adventures to other publishers. I decided to do it myself because I didn't want to cede editorial control - being a long time player / GM myself it's important to me to produce the product which I wish people would produce for me.

Richard

Dark Archive

Clark Peterson wrote:
richard develyn wrote:
Ok, well, here, as promised, is the text version of everything *I* believe should go into section 15 of the OGL to allow you to use all of the Exhibit B Pathfinder Core Rule Books, to date, presented according to the latest information that was given in this forum.

I dont know what you mean by "use all of the core rule books." You dont use the core rule books, you use the SRD.

Maybe I am just not understanding what you are trying to do.

Pathfinder has a number of core rule books which you can freely cite in your own product, and which contain, basically, the core rules for the Pathfinder game. The list that I put is the union, if you like, of all the copyright notices for all those books.

Incidentally, I think you might just have put the cat among the pigeons with regards to your other answers. I've got a funny feeling nobody realised about not reordering - but I could be wrong ...

Richard


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Clark Peterson wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:


Is there something wrong with listing the monsters alphabetically? I don't really understand the liberties being taken here.
Don't rearrange how someone else's section 15 is. Dont "fix" it, don't "make it better", don't alphabetize. Just do it how they did it. Its what the license says.

Cheers - I appreciate it. I don't really see any reason to alter someone else's chosen order, it just surprised me that it would be an issue. I would never have considered the order to be relevant - same as font, size, etcetera. I would have thought the information would be what mattered.


Richard, you remind me of myself when I took my first steps into authorship/publishing (long long time ago now).

It's certainly possible to create something fairly decent without laying down much money (been there), but without the professional equipment you pay tenfold in stress, frustration, time, energy, sweat and screaming. Maybe it's worth that to you.

However, the customer isn't going to care how you got there, only what the finished product is like. Most will expect professionalism on the scale of the 'big publishers' even if you consider it only a hobby. If you want to be taken seriously, and you want your work to sell, you need it to look professional, act professional and to all appearances be professional.

Get used to editing, re-editing and then re-re-editing. Grow a thick skin, you'll need it. Follow the rules even if you think they're a pain and good luck. You'll need it.

Dark Archive

Yeah - I'm kinda learning this, on all counts :-)

I do have to be careful with money, though. I'm currently looking at this:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/vortexgames/game-masters-campaign-the-f antasy-art-kit

- which means if I go on to my next phase next spring I'll be able to create some nice little encounter maps.

But that's $250 or $500!

I think Word does allow you to produce something which is fairly decent but it is a pain. I'm feeling my way at the moment. If I'm at all successful with this venture then I'll reinvest what I make into things like DTP tools and so on. If I fail then I wont have lost that much money and I'll have had fun doing it.

Richard

(and, BTW, thanks for the advice and the "good luck")


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Clark Peterson wrote:
Alzrius wrote:


Hold on, Clark, are you saying that when copying the Section 15 of a product you cite into your own product, you have to keep the citations in the same order listed, or you'll be in violation of the License?
What does the OGL say you have to do?

It says:

Quote:
6.Notice of License Copyright: You must update the COPYRIGHT NOTICE portion of this License to include the exact text of the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any Open Game Content You are copying, modifying or distributing, and You must add the title, the copyright date, and the copyright holder's name to the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any original Open Game Content you Distribute.

I'm not a lawyer, but the part where it says "exact text" looks like the point under discussion in terms of whether you have to include the various copyright notices in the same order.

My read of this is that the clause "exact text of the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any Open Game Content You are copying, modifying or distributing" etc. means that it's refering to each such copyright notice specifically, rather than as a whole. That's why the first part refers to you updating the copyright notice "portion," while the second half doesn't use that word, indicating that it's refering to each such notice rather than the entire "portion." Hence why it refers to "any" Open Game Content that you're using.

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

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Richard,

While it is "cute" actually watching you finally learn what was told to you almost 200 posts ago, you still have a considerable number of questions that you are only now beginning to realize that you have. And it is not Clark's responsibility, or anybody else's responsibility on this thread to help you. Its your responsibility. And the best person to help you out with that is a lawyer. I know you don't want to do that, but if you want to be a publisher, get use to doing things that you don't want to do. Like reediting something 100 times to make it right. Or going an accountant to figure out your taxes. Or signing contracts that put you under certain obligations to do/not do certain things. That comes with the territory. Get use to it.

While it is fun to publish material, being a publisher is a business and it is serious business. And as a serious business, you have to do the serious things, and understand the serious implications of your actions.

I hope you don't read my words as harsh. They are not. They are matter-of-fact. Its is a serious business and you have to do serious things if you want to be in this business.

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

Alzrius wrote:
Clark Peterson wrote:
Alzrius wrote:


Hold on, Clark, are you saying that when copying the Section 15 of a product you cite into your own product, you have to keep the citations in the same order listed, or you'll be in violation of the License?
What does the OGL say you have to do?

It says:

Quote:
6.Notice of License Copyright: You must update the COPYRIGHT NOTICE portion of this License to include the exact text of the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any Open Game Content You are copying, modifying or distributing, and You must add the title, the copyright date, and the copyright holder's name to the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any original Open Game Content you Distribute.

I'm not a lawyer, but the part where it says "exact text" looks like the point under discussion in terms of whether you have to include the various copyright notices in the same order.

My read of this is that the clause "exact text of the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any Open Game Content You are copying, modifying or distributing" etc. means that it's refering to each such copyright notice specifically, rather than as a whole. That's why the first part refers to you updating the copyright notice "portion," while the second half doesn't use that word, indicating that it's refering to each such notice rather than the entire "portion." Hence why it refers to "any" Open Game Content that you're using.

That actually is a great question for a prospective publisher to ask a lawyer. A lawyer will be able to tell you if someone has a snowball's chance in hell of winning a lawsuit if they decide to sue you over it or if your actions are so air tight that no one will even be able to sue you over it.


Dale McCoy Jr wrote:

Richard,

While it is "cute" actually watching you finally learn what was told to you almost 200 posts ago, you still have a considerable number of questions that you are only now beginning to realize that you have. And it is not Clark's responsibility, or anybody else's responsibility on this thread to help you. Its your responsibility. And the best person to help you out with that is a lawyer. I know you don't want to do that, but if you want to be a publisher, get use to doing things that you don't want to do. Like reediting something 100 times to make it right. Or going an accountant to figure out your taxes. Or signing contracts that put you under certain obligations to do/not do certain things. That comes with the territory. Get use to it.

While it is fun to publish material, being a publisher is a business and it is serious business. And as a serious business, you have to do the serious things, and understand the serious implications of your actions.

I hope you don't read my words as harsh. They are not. They are matter-of-fact. Its is a serious business and you have to do serious things if you want to be in this business.

I'm speaking from the experience of self-publishing mini-comics, but I'll second this.

Sitting around and reading comics is fun, as is playing RPGs. Producing materiel for either is, like most jobs, an ass-ache of monumental proportions. On a good day the ass-ache is worth the satisfaction you feel, but you don't get there by having fun.

Like Dale, I'm not trying to dissuade you, but you should really go into this with your eyes open as to the effort required. I don't have any experience with RPG design beyond my own amateur efforts, but I would start with one product rather than "a small number," just to get a handle on the process. It's much easier and more rewarding to turn a single successful product into a series rather than to produce a product line to begin with.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

*wanders through, wondering how much Clark (and others) should be charging for advice.* :-)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Matthew Morris wrote:

*wanders through, wondering how much Clark (and others) should be charging for advice.* :-)

I accept Paizo store credit, or funding my incoming NPC Codex shipment (g*@%+!it p&p rates to Poland). ;-)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

BTW, speaking of territory - I know I'm going into "Gorbacz you pathetic jerk, stop raining on other people's parades" territory, BUT the text and statblock in the linked file have several crunch errors I will gladly point out in a PM if the author wants some (more) free advice.

Dark Archive

Certainly.

With thanks.

Richard

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
richard develyn wrote:

I'm always grateful for advice.

I've seen quite a number of products now, both 3PP and Paizo, and numerous other systems, so I do have some idea of the standards I need to aim for. I understand what you mean about a good-looking product, though I do tend to think that sometimes people forget it's the writing that counts in the end.

Richard

The artwork included in a roleplaying product isn't just a cost tax, and it shouldn't be considered just fluff. Art is an important part of establishing the feel and personality of a game product, and the artwork in Paizo's products is far from a trivial part of Pathfinder's overall success. As any master chef would tell you, presentation is an important part of presenting a meal. Artwork is a major key of setting the tone. Take the game Paranoia for instance. Would it be half the fun it was, if all of the artwork had been stripped from the product?

The industry for all it's tiny and niche size has matured considerably since it's beginnings. The old standards of mimeograph and typesetting just don't cut it any longer.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dale McCoy Jr wrote:

Richard,

While it is "cute" actually watching you finally learn what was told to you almost 200 posts ago, you still have a considerable number of questions that you are only now beginning to realize that you have. And it is not Clark's responsibility, or anybody else's responsibility on this thread to help you. Its your responsibility. And the best person to help you out with that is a lawyer. I know you don't want to do that, but if you want to be a publisher, get use to doing things that you don't want to do. Like reediting something 100 times to make it right. Or going an accountant to figure out your taxes. Or signing contracts that put you under certain obligations to do/not do certain things. That comes with the territory. Get use to it.

While it is fun to publish material, being a publisher is a business and it is serious business. And as a serious business, you have to do the serious things, and understand the serious implications of your actions.

I hope you don't read my words as harsh. They are not. They are matter-of-fact. Its is a serious business and you have to do serious things if you want to be in this business.

I'd add this as an addendum. At some point one should ask, do you actually want to publish? Or would you be happier having someone else like an established publisher put your work out for you? If you're just looking to supplement existing work, perhaps your time would be better spent submitting works to those already in the publishing buisness. IF you think that your work is really that good, perhaps you should consider throwing your hat in Paizo's RPG Superstar competition. Even if you don't take the top spot, if you have talent, it will be noticed by some of the top folks in the field.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I thought I heard some ambulances racing to this thread, and felt a professional duty to post...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

We totally need a Paizo lawyer thread.

Not a rules lawyer thread, mind you. We're above those amateurs...

Dark Archive

LazarX wrote:


I'd add this as an addendum. At some point one should ask, do you actually want to publish?

The reason I want to publish, is because I want to cover my costs so that I can produce.

The reason I want to produce, is because I want a small number of RPG adventures, representative of my feelings about the subject, to exist.

The reason I want these adventure to exist, is because I want to see whether it is possible to realise the concepts and ideas that I have in my head into realities.

It's as abstract as that. I have committed to building four because I think anything less isn't giving the idea a chance. Once I have produced them, I will consider whether they are, in my own mind and my own judgement, a success, and whether I therefore want to continue, coupled with the feedback I've received to indicate whether I'm going to have to pay for their production entirely by myself or whether I'm going to receive some financial help by way of sales.

Though I'm not being massively maverick about this, it's still what you call creative writing as opposed to commercial writing.

I would like to add, incidentally, that this sort of activity doesn't harm anyone. In fact commercial concerns normally welcome it as a sort of unpaid experiment. It's a win-win situation. Someone tries something a little different, at their expense, and you get to see the results.

I would also like to say that I'm all for it and I would hope other people give it a go too. A feminist once said that you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prince. As a corollary I would like to add that unless you're prepared encourage the frogs to come out and be kissed you'll never have a chance of finding whatever princes might be lurking under the lilly pads.

Richard


You can kiss all the frogs you want, but if you don't murder your darlings you'll end up getting more than your fair share of the s@~% endemic to a life in the arts - to put two other quotes from writers together.

If you want them to exist, sit down and write them. They will be a reality. You will have produced them. Publishing is a completely different matter and a different skill set.

As a long time writer, I have produced hundreds of thousands of words that will probably never see the light of day on a published page/screen. I don't see any difference between creative writing and commercial writing. All writing is creative, published or not.

Dark Archive

Clearly there is more to publishing than simply making your work available, even for a price, through an online store such as the one that Paizo manages here.

Happily, though, that's all I want to do.

Should it transpire that my work has commercial potential, then I expect I will be talking to a publisher. For now, however, I'm happy where I am.

Richard

Minister of Propaganda, Super Genius Games

Richard, since you're on a budget (and who isn't?) I recommend looking at the various stock art compilations for sale. Most can be had at *very* low prices (10+ images for under $10) and should help you get more products sold.

Stock art is the only reason we've been able to release a PDF a week now for nearly 3 years running.

Hyrum.


You also might want to consider public domain artwork. There's a surprising amount out there, although finding something that matches what you want exactly can be a bit challenging.

Liberty's Edge

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R. Hyrum Savage wrote:

Richard, since you're on a budget (and who isn't?) I recommend looking at the various stock art compilations for sale. Most can be had at *very* low prices (10+ images for under $10) and should help you get more products sold.

Stock art is the only reason we've been able to release a PDF a week now for nearly 3 years running.

Hyrum.

Along with the occasional, awesome pieces of custom art :)

Founder, Legendary Games & Publisher, Necromancer Games

1 person marked this as a favorite.
richard develyn wrote:
Pathfinder has a number of core rule books which you can freely cite in your own product,

I am not sure how to get this across to you. You don't cite to the rule books in your products. You use content from the SRD. The fact that same content is in the core books is great, but you are not using the core books in your product, you are using content from those books that has been released as open content in the SRD.

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