An issue with a rowdy player.


Advice

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I've gotten the Beginner Box and I am a new GM. I have a group together and we're using the Beginner Box. I'm using Sandpoint for the setting until I feel comfortable with allowing the adventurers beyond and into the world.

Now, I'm having an issue with one the players. He plays a Neutral Good Human Fighter, but doesn't exactly act the way his alignment suggests. Several times he has attacked sleeping NPCs, without checking if they're friendly or not, has attempted to stab Sandpoint Guards in the back and has a thing for trying to steal from the shops, taverns and inns. I have warned him to stop and even began to have his alignment knocked down because of his actions. He refuses to change his alignment on his character sheet and continues to get the entire party in trouble, including messing with the gangs in the waterfront.

At this point he's making it difficult for me to DM and is also making it so the other players are starting to complain. I'm not sure what to do about this, as not only is the player my brother but he also helped pitch a bit of money to get the beginner box.


When it comes time to sit down and play the game, you have to put your personal feelings for your brother aside and act as a GM should: Talk to him one-on-one and tell him to cut out the shenanigans. While alignment should never be a straightjacket, he's acting like a flat-out dick, especially with the randomly stabbing guards. If he refuses, talk to the other players and have them kick him out in character, whereupon you boot him from the table.

Brother or not, he has no right to disrupt play because "he's just doing what his character would do".

Liberty's Edge

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Yee-hah. Sounds like Sandpoint is ready for an old fashioned hanging.


Remind him that Pathfinder is a cooperative measure between players and DM. He's disrupting the fun for everyone else. If he doesn't make efforts to change, you can always kill off his character (quite an easy task, especially if he goes around picking fights--have him bite off more than he can chew--best part, he will have no one to blame except for himself). If he rolls up a similar character... boot him?

Also, he most definitely isn't playing Neutral Good. His alignment should be Chaotic Neutral (if you're being generous), or Chaotic Evil (if you're being not so generous).

As a DM, it doesn't matter what alignment he has written on his sheet. You are the final arbiter of the rules. Whenever his alignment comes into question (such as detection spells, holy/unholy weapons, and smite abilities), use the alignment you think fits best.


Sandpoint guard raid, just to take/kill him.

Make it a really bad idea for the pcs to get involved, and he will be dead soon enough.

Dark Archive

A player may certainly choose what alignment his character starts play with, but if the character's action are more in line with a different alignment, he's effectively made a difference choice. Treat his character in all respects as if he is the alignment he plays, and treat what he says his alignment as irrelevant. (Compare to a player who plays a wizard, but insists on calling him a sorcerer, call him whatever you want but use the rules for what he's actually playing.)

As for how to deal with him, talk to him. If you feel some sense of obligation to let things slide with him because he's family and/or he help pay for the books, it's probably fair to assume he'd feel a similar sense of obligation to you for the same reasons, perhaps even more as you are the GM. Presuming you have no real restrictions on what players actually play, allow him to play as he does (modifying alignment as necessary) and let him know the rest of the world will react accordingly. Eventually a guardsman or some other NPC will take violent exception to to being suddenly stabbed or stolen from. Let him know this ahead of time. If he thinks it's just an attempt to "strike back" or "punish" him, remind him what happens in the real world when you run around stabbing cops and you're just trying to keep the game plausible.

Silver Crusade

Players are free to pick their initial alignment, but the DM gets to decide if their actions cause an alignment shift and he doesn't get much say in the matter.

While for a character like a fighter, alignment doesn't matter much mechanics wise (IE, he won't get locked out of his class abilities if he is evil) it certainly will cause a problem if he's evil. Good characters and especially Paladins don't cotton with that. If you have a party of good characters who know about his deeds or heck, if you have someone with the ability to discern his alignment, impress upon them the fact that as good characters, they're going to have a hard time running around with this murderer and calling themselves "Good" or "Lawful."

Paladins may try to outright slay him for his actions.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
TimmyTheNerd wrote:

I've gotten the Beginner Box and I am a new GM. I have a group together and we're using the Beginner Box. I'm using Sandpoint for the setting until I feel comfortable with allowing the adventurers beyond and into the world.

Now, I'm having an issue with one the players. He plays a Neutral Good Human Fighter, but doesn't exactly act the way his alignment suggests. Several times he has attacked sleeping NPCs, without checking if they're friendly or not, has attempted to stab Sandpoint Guards in the back and has a thing for trying to steal from the shops, taverns and inns. I have warned him to stop and even began to have his alignment knocked down because of his actions. He refuses to change his alignment on his character sheet and continues to get the entire party in trouble, including messing with the gangs in the waterfront.

At this point he's making it difficult for me to DM and is also making it so the other players are starting to complain. I'm not sure what to do about this, as not only is the player my brother but he also helped pitch a bit of money to get the beginner box.

I dont think this is an issue of alignment or how his character should or should not act. I wouldnt try and resolve it in game (you change his alignment to evil or chaotic or something - wont he just shrug and start doing worse on the grounds that "Hey - you said I was evil! I'm just roleplaying my alignment."?)

Ultimately, RPGs are about people playing a game together. Everyone has a different role to play, but part of his responsibility is to ensure the other players are enjoying themselves too and to make your life easier, not harder. That's not in the rulebooks - that's part of being a socially functioning member of society. There's no rule in chess against swearing and shouting at your opponent either - it might even help you win. It's nonetheless not the right thing to do.

If I were you, I'd talk to him away from the table and away from the rest of the group (since they might join in and put him on the defensive). Presuming that he is new to roleplaying games, perhaps he thinks this is all part of it. It's a relatively common 'phase' that some people go through. Point him to this and similar threads if you like - there's going to be very, very few people supporting his behaviour. Ultimately, irrespective of what game you're playing, you should behave respectfully to the people you're playing with.

Silver Crusade

While playing evil characters in a campaign isn't objectively wrong, It can make things complicated, especially if you're playing beginner's box. I'm comfortable with it because the group I play with is experienced and we all know how to handle stuff like that without causing conflict above table.

If your group doesn't have that experience, playing an evil character can be messy. I would avoid letting him play an evil character until you have more experience under your belt.


I'll spare you my preaching, as this thread is full of dead-on advice. Please do yourself a favor and have an honest conversation with him. How much you want to lay into him is up to you and your personal level of masochism, but make sure he understands your point of view.


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First have a talk with your brother. Explain that while he may have fun playing soccer, if everyone else is trying to play basketball it's just not gonna work out. He isn't playing the same game as everyone else wants to play.

Second, stop having the other players meta-game your brother's character. If they saw an NPC pull that crap what would they do?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Be sure to remember, and point out, that everyone is there to have fun, this includes the DM.

No one's fun should stop another from having fun.

Let him know this, and let him know it would be the same if roles were reversed.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

In addition to the excellent advice offered by many about talking to him and pointing out the cooperative elements of the game -- and that what he's doing is compromise everyone else's fun...

And I'd also just ask him--why are you doing this? What are you hoping to achieve by wreaking havoc? It would provide some insight to see what answer he gives.

I would make it clear that this is an open enough world/setting that actions have consequences. NPCs are not robots that just stand around and do nothing just because the PCs do whatever they feel like. NPCs aren't even like NPCs in a video game, where maybe you can kill them or hurt them and nothing much happens or even if it does, they run on such a limited script that it doesn't matter. They represent living breathing people and you will have them act as such. Therefore, regardless of the alignment argument, if his PC attacks guards, he will become wanted for assaulting police and will be hunted down. IF you think you may actually have to play this through to drive home the point, I would suggest talking to your other players first to talk about what's going on and what might happen. If the other players have been doing their best to play in the spirit of the cooperative game that Pathfinder ought to be, tell them you do not want to punish their characters for his character's action -- and even give them the opportunity to help deal with the capture of his PC if they would desire to play that out.

That said, I would NOT go out specifically to try to punish his character for what is essentially a player problem first. You have to do everything out of game you possibly can to talk to him and deal with this. The only time his PC being attacked should come is after you've discussed this thoroughly with him and made it clear that NPCs will respond with fairly realistic reactions to his actions, and then do so to reinforce what you had already talked about. I've realized you've not mentioned "vengeance tactics" at all but some folks' response is to go straight to killing a PC when the player is the problem, and going straight to PC death without any kind of intervention and attempt to clear stuff up first is not going to end well.

Worst case scenario? Save up, repay him the money he pitched in for the box and ask him to leave the game; get your fellow players to back you up on that if possible. He's your brother, that doesn't mean he should be permitted to be disrespectful to you or the group. Quite the opposite, actually. I really hope it doesn't come to that but if you've done every reasonable thing you can and no resolution comes, then you do really need to think about what is the least painful thing to happen next.

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

One of my brothers was very much like yours. He would go to great lengths to be a pain in the rear, even going so far as to literally burn bridges before the party crossed them. Granted, there were goblins standing on it, but the party hadn't been given a chance to even talk to them before launched burning arrows.

He even had a character sit down in the middle of a combat and eat a sandwich. That provokes attacks of opportunity by the way.

It all came to a head when he felt I was being unfair and that he was losing the game. He launched himself across the coffee table and attacked me, pummeling me with his fists. I didn't fight back, but instead let him run himself out of steam. We haven't played together ever since.

Now, I don't expect that to happen to you. My brother had some serious issues he was going through, and was in need of a therapist.

The lesson here is to end the madness early. Talk to him, set some guidelines, let him know what is and isn't acceptable. Make it clear that you and him have two totally different ideas on what type of game you want to play. He can either help everyone have fun, or run his own game.

If it comes to it, it is okay to agree not to play together until you both can play the same type of game. Don't be afraid to tell him you can't play with him any more.

Remember, having fun is the point of a game. If you can't have fun, something needs to change.


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I don't want to detract from the other great advice on this thread, but I would like to offer another suggestion.

Pay attention to the time being given to that player. If the player is being disruptive, this is often because he is getting an uneven amount of play time to follow his misadventures. Just divide up the actual play time according to the people at the table. For example, imagine four players and one spends five minutes of actual time trying to rob some random store, then after that time you make sure each other person at the table also gets five minutes of time. If those players are together, that time is added consecutively. Therefore, the lone player gets five minutes of play time while the other three all share fifteen. The lone player is "busy" with his robbery while the others are playing. Eventually, he'll get the point that playing with the group gets him more fun time.

Granted, this only works if this player is actually leaving the others to start his own trouble. That is an assumption I'm making from the way you described his behavior.


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Get him arrested.

Shadow Lodge

its very simple. hes acting chaotic neutral/evil label him as such. he may argue that hes not an evil character and if he does tell him flat out hes wrong then show him why. he will either act the same way with the proper alignment, or change to fit his chosen alignment.

if hes doing disruptive things, then do what would happen in real life... send bunty hunters after him. have them attack him in the middle of the night and drag his character off. in the type of world pathfinder is set in, it would be very easy to purchase competant npc's to do this.


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I'll talk to him tomorrow morning before my group gets together.

I honestly should have expected this behavior, since it matches his playstyle when it comes to games like Fable, Elder Scrolls and Fallout. He's use to being able to just steal and kill whatever he wants with little to no consequence.

As for why the other players haven't done anything, I don't allow PvP. They've tried talking to him, among otherthings.

If this does keep up after I talk with him, I will have Sandpoint put out wanted posters for his character.


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One thing to remember is that while Sandpoint is a small town there are still a few decent spellcasters living there capable of casting divination spells. If there are blatant murders and robberies happening in town then it may be standard procedure to call on the local clerics and wizards to figure out who the culprit is. Once his name is known to them then the hunt will be on. If he has killed any of the local militia then they will see him as an equivalent of a modern-day cop-killer and justice will be quite rough.

Of course, that is assuming the Sczarni don't get him first. They are the equivalent of the thieves' guild in Sandpoint and they won't appreciate him infringing on their territory and stirring up the law. If the townsfolk catch him they will string him up in the town square, but at least there will be a trial. The Sczarni, on the other hand, are likely to drygulch him in the middle of the night and dump his body in the harbor.

What level are your characters? Look at the section on NPC classes. NPCs have levels too, and a 5th level commoner with a pitchfork or a hunk of oak is normally more than a match for a 1st level fighter - he has about twice the hit points, one more feat, and a base attack bonus one point higher. Give him improvised weapons as his first feat and he's good to go.

And remember that NPCs don't just sit around and wait to be killed. If they feel threatened or in danger they will take action. Understand also that medieval towns don't have police - instead all able-bodied citizens are expected to assist in apprehending criminals, and failing to participate when needed is actually a crime. In this era the lynch mob is the standard practice for law enforcement.

This isn't Grand Theft Auto. The public will not forget if crimes are committed against them, and will demand justice if the crimes are serious. Part of your job as a GM is to ensure that the environment is realistic and it isn't if the citizens are not gunning for him at this point.

If you want to keep him in the game, you could have him captured by someone important, perhaps the Sczarni or a powerful but greedy noble like Titus Scarnetti. Have them explain that they have bought off the injured parties but that in exchange they expect the character to follow orders and work for them. If the character insists on being a crook, might as well give him some direction.

Peet


This is an out of game issue, not an in-game one.


Ideally the best thing to do is to explain that he is irritating the rest of the group and holding some sort of intervention to get him to stop.

With that said, if he insists on putting his hand on a hot stove then let him, sometimes these lessons have to be learned the hard way. Just warn him ahead of time that he’s getting a bad reputation around town and that he could be in for a world of hurt if keeps up with these stupid stunts. If he complains, ask him what would happen in real life if he went around robbing department stores, picking fights with gangbangers or knifing cops. With a little luck his next character will be wiser.

By the way, I’d also tell the other players what going on so they don’t get caught in the crossfire by trying and help him.


Let me bring up another piece of advice:

I'm pretty sure the origin of the problem is quite simple. The player is assuming, and "almost" rightly so, that Pathfinder is a framework for improvised theatre. The idea is that he believes that if he does something really radical the GM will simply play along with it.

The problems here are:

1: The other players might not agree with an approach that is hostile to the GM (even if the hostile player is well meaning)

2: The GM might not be OK with constantly improvising (especially since Pathfinder and similar rules heavy systems are really hard to improvise for)

What you should do is bring this up. You should point out that while it's perfectly OK for a player to OCCASIONALLY do things that sidetrack the game it's really a pain in the ass if done often and repeatedly.

You should also tell him that other players might consider him a spotlight hog and they might want to follow along with what the GM has planned. This last point is also important because they might actually SAY that they agree with what the hostile player is doing even if they don't actually do. It depends on how the questions are formulated.

Don't bother asking the other players what they think, because there are too many complications to getting an honest answer.


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pobbes wrote:

I don't want to detract from the other great advice on this thread, but I would like to offer another suggestion.

Pay attention to the time being given to that player. If the player is being disruptive, this is often because he is getting an uneven amount of play time to follow his misadventures.

As a father, I think measuring time spent is good advice, when dealing with toddlers who are your actual children. In my experience as a GM (32 years), an adult, or somebody nearing adulthood, who is acting like this, cannot possibly GET enough attention from the GM to make this go away.

In fact, my experience tells me the more attention he gets, the more he is going to act this way. And more to the point, why would you want to reward this mischief? Truly, what we have here, is an incredibly selfish person.

Teenagers and grown-ups act like this because there is something so wrong with them that their brother, or their GM (or both) cannot fix it for them.

Talking to him will be nice of you. But I already know where this is headed. To one of two places:

1. He gets kicked out and you all feel better.

2. You keep warning him but he never stops, other players leave, you end up in such awful fights with him that you end up not speaking for months or years at a time.

My best advice is to hide the box set so he doesn't tear it apart, pay him back for his half, let him know he is out of the group, and tell him you wouldn't mind playing with him again in a couple of years. Or a decade. Or whatever.

Worked for me. I put up with this game-ending, player chasing BS for almost a decade, off and on. Best thing that ever happened was kicking that guy out. Now, ten years later, we all get along just swell, and he's back in the game.

Sovereign Court

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Most of the advice here makes sense. Except for one thing I haven't really seen mentioned; that this is a phase many (all?) new RPG players seem to go through.

No, really. It's more obvious when you play with teenagers, but new players just have the urge to flex their character's muscles and see what mayhem they can inflict. They want to attack especially the neutral NPCs, notably innkeepers. Finding out that you're in charge, that you can make your character (try to) do whatever you want, is a heady experience.

I think that when a new player goes on this rampage, it's better to smile knowingly and set aside some time for it. Play a totally degenerate adventure that goes completely off the rails; probably the party never even sees the dungeon. PvP, too, is likely. As is getting beaten unconscious by a level 10 innkeeper or dragon that suddenly swoops down into the town square.

You have to let people try being immature for a bit before they can be mature. It might not apply to everyone, but it works that way for a lot of people who afterwards become very nice RPers; they had their Burning Hands vs. bunch of puppies moment too.

---

So what to do? Play a throwaway adventure. Have a dungeon ready in case they do actually follow the plot, but don't really count on it. Let them rampage a bit, let them kill each other if they want to. Let them fight with the civilians. Make sure to have fun yourself too; when the PCs get themselves in trouble, let them, and let absurd and funny situations develop. Use ridiculous monsters.

When he's got it out of his system, that's when you settle down for the more serious game; at that point you talk a bit about what you all want, how serious and how consequence-y things will be.


TimmyTheNerd wrote:

I'll talk to him tomorrow morning before my group gets together.

I honestly should have expected this behavior, since it matches his playstyle when it comes to games like Fable, Elder Scrolls and Fallout. He's use to being able to just steal and kill whatever he wants with little to no consequence.

As for why the other players haven't done anything, I don't allow PvP. They've tried talking to him, among otherthings.

If this does keep up after I talk with him, I will have Sandpoint put out wanted posters for his character.

Well there's your problem. Pvp is turned off. If a character is off the rails, the simplest solution can be for the party to clean house, kill him, get the xp and then move on. "Thanks for your time, your char is dead, let me know what you decide to bring in next week. Please don't fight the whole party again."

Totally not allowing pvp is not a supreme good, there can be plenty of good reasons to kill another character, or for some characters to side with non-pc factions against a member of the party: e.g. siding with bounty hunters, paladins, guardsmen against a nutter killer char.


Ascalaphus wrote:

Most of the advice here makes sense. Except for one thing I haven't really seen mentioned; that this is a phase many (all?) new RPG players seem to go through.

No, really. It's more obvious when you play with teenagers, but new players just have the urge to flex their character's muscles and see what mayhem they can inflict. They want to attack especially the neutral NPCs, notably innkeepers. Finding out that you're in charge, that you can make your character (try to) do whatever you want, is a heady experience.

I think that when a new player goes on this rampage, it's better to smile knowingly and set aside some time for it. Play a totally degenerate adventure that goes completely off the rails; probably the party never even sees the dungeon. PvP, too, is likely. As is getting beaten unconscious by a level 10 innkeeper or dragon that suddenly swoops down into the town square.

You have to let people try being immature for a bit before they can be mature. It might not apply to everyone, but it works that way for a lot of people who afterwards become very nice RPers; they had their Burning Hands vs. bunch of puppies moment too.

---

So what to do? Play a throwaway adventure. Have a dungeon ready in case they do actually follow the plot, but don't really count on it. Let them rampage a bit, let them kill each other if they want to. Let them fight with the civilians. Make sure to have fun yourself too; when the PCs get themselves in trouble, let them, and let absurd and funny situations develop. Use ridiculous monsters.

When he's got it out of his system, that's when you settle down for the more serious game; at that point you talk a bit about what you all want, how serious and how consequence-y things will be.

Mayhem sure is fun, but when someone tries to play D&D like they have been playing a computer/console rpg, it can go very badly for everyone else.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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TimmyTheNerd wrote:
I'll talk to him tomorrow morning before my group gets together.

Awesome, let us know how it goes.

Quote:


I honestly should have expected this behavior, since it matches his playstyle when it comes to games like Fable, Elder Scrolls and Fallout. He's use to being able to just steal and kill whatever he wants with little to no consequence.

I was wondering if this was part of the problem. Make it clear to him this is not like a video game, where the rules of the world are always set aside to make sure the main character can make it to the ending and save the world. Make it clear he is NOT the Vault Dweller or the Chosen One or the Dovahkin or what have you -- he is just one starting level adventurer amongst thousands in the world, and the world does not need him to survive. The ONLY way the world will know he is an exemplary hero is if he acts like one. Otherwise, if he or the party does not have what it takes for the Ultimate Quest of Destiny, they will find another party of adventurers to help them.

While you're on the subject, you might want him to realize there are no game saves--if a character dies and the party has no means to pay for his raising or resurrection (or doesn't want to because he's been such a jerk), then the character is dead, end of story. That's something else that may have not sunk in, and it can be a disruptive shock if you go into a game not understanding that character death is a reality.

You can also say--if you want to, although I really would probably try to avoid this out of the Beginner's Box--that if he AND the party want to play a villains campaign where the PCs kill, steal, and wreak havoc, you can do that, but it WILL be a villains campaign and it means the enemies you fight will be "the good guys."

Quote:


As for why the other players haven't done anything, I don't allow PvP. They've tried talking to him, among otherthings.

I can understand a compunction against PVP but IF you have made clear to him consequences are real and IF one PC is constantly acting against the interests of the rest of the party, the other PCs should be allowed to respond just as realistically to the situation as the NPCs (but AGAIN all efforts should be made to resolve the issue out of game first). If it bothers you to the idea of letting them kill the PC they should still be able to capture him themselves and/or provide assistance to the NPCs trying to arrest him, etc.

Good luck, and sorry you're in such a frustrating situation. Learning to play Pathfinder should be a fun and exciting thing, not one that causes conflict between brothers. I hope it resolves quickly and you get to playing some fun and imaginative games.

Sovereign Court

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Yeah, I'm not saying it's something you want to go on forever.

But you do need to get it out of your system. A player who's used to CRPS will do this, but it actually happened before CRPS become popular too. It's just a new player thing; people want to try things out and test the limits. If you're going to be all "mature" and block them from the start, they'll just get frustrated and feel stymied. Where's the freedom of tabletop RPG they were promised, if they can't go wild?

I think this is something that goes away much easier and with fewer hard feelings if you let the guy run wild for a bit before turning more serious. Let him have his fun slaughtering random NPCs, then after a while dial up the consequences (i.e. NPCs banding together to take down the marauder).

So if the other players are already more "serious", either have a private session with the player, or ask them to bring an expendable character for a rampage.

I'm saying this because in my experience, a lot of people who later become well-adjusted RPers start out this way. It's not that someone's personality is flawed; they're just new and testing the limits. Give them a bit of time to do that in an expendable adventure, before starting with the real campaign you want to run.


and might I suggest that if trying to talk him out of a diruptive adventuring fails pick up a module like, We Be Goblins. It should satisfy his destructive needs enough while introducing him to a more sophisticated play style later on when you feel he is ready....


DeathQuaker wrote:
TimmyTheNerd wrote:
I'll talk to him tomorrow morning before my group gets together.

Awesome, let us know how it goes.

Quote:


I honestly should have expected this behavior, since it matches his playstyle when it comes to games like Fable, Elder Scrolls and Fallout. He's use to being able to just steal and kill whatever he wants with little to no consequence.

I was wondering if this was part of the problem. Make it clear to him this is not like a video game, where the rules of the world are always set aside to make sure the main character can make it to the ending and save the world. Make it clear he is NOT the Vault Dweller or the Chosen One or the Dovahkin or what have you -- he is just one starting level adventurer amongst thousands in the world, and the world does not need him to survive. The ONLY way the world will know he is an exemplary hero is if he acts like one. Otherwise, if he or the party does not have what it takes for the Ultimate Quest of Destiny, they will find another party of adventurers to help them.

While you're on the subject, you might want him to realize there are no game saves--if a character dies and the party has no means to pay for his raising or resurrection (or doesn't want to because he's been such a jerk), then the character is dead, end of story. That's something else that may have not sunk in, and it can be a disruptive shock if you go into a game not understanding that character death is a reality.

You can also say--if you want to, although I really would probably try to avoid this out of the Beginner's Box--that if he AND the party want to play a villains campaign where the PCs kill, steal, and wreak havoc, you can do that, but it WILL be a villains campaign and it means the enemies you fight will be "the good guys."

Quote:


As for why the other players haven't done anything, I don't allow PvP. They've tried talking to him, among otherthings.
I can understand a compunction against PVP but IF you have made clear to...

Well stated. You know, given your name I would expect you to be all for the killing of innocents and villain games. Got some good advice there. Yes, not the vault dweller or the dovakiin. Just an adventurer starting out, and if you go bad, well, adventurers may just deal with you!


A Ninja wrote:
and might I suggest that if trying to talk him out of a diruptive adventuring fails pick up a module like, We Be Goblins. It should satisfy his destructive needs enough while introducing him to a more sophisticated play style later on when you feel he is ready....

Yeah, and as an ending to the campaign, you could have rangers/adventurers rock up and annihilate the goblins. Prior to the we be goblins ending, get an idea for what they want to play next. This leads into a new story with the players then taking the role of the killers of their goblin characters. Just another day killing goblins, now onto great quests and mighty deeds.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Ascalaphus wrote:
But you do need to get it out of your system. A player who's used to CRPS will do this, but it actually happened before CRPS become popular too. It's just a new player thing; people want to try things out and test the limits. If you're going to be all "mature" and block them from the start, they'll just get frustrated and feel stymied. Where's the freedom of tabletop RPG they were promised, if they can't go wild?

I think sometimes the freedom-seeking or boundary-testing player forgets

1. Freedom to act does not mean freedom from consequences.

2. The GM is just as "free" as the player. The GM is a human being who is not restricted to some strict code of reaction (like a computer program might be), and just as the player is "free" to describe whatever actions he likes, the GM is "free" to respond as he likes.

I agree that it can be a new player thing, just trying to test boundaries. But when the player forgets/ignores/discounts the fact that the other players and the GM are just as free to act as he is, that's when problems start. A player who essentially plays the game as "I am free do do as I wish without consequence, and you must let me get away with it and bow to my wishes," is not espousing the freedoms provided by playing an RPG; they're playing a power and control game that has no winners and is no fun for anyone but themselves.

3.5 Loyalist wrote:


Well stated. You know, given your name I would expect you to be all for the killing of innocents and villain games. Got some good advice there. Yes, not the vault dweller or the dovakiin. Just an adventurer starting out, and if you go bad, well, adventurers may just deal with you!

Thanks!

And I'm not a personal fan of villain games myself and probably wouldn't play in one. But I've nothing against others who want to explore that, as long as all members of the gaming group are willing. :) I'm all for healthy outleting of frustrations, just as long as no one IRL gets hurt (and especially if it keeps folks IRL from getting hurt!) :D


The problem player is your brother right? So just tell him that every time he acts out of character you'll kick him in the shins physical violence between brothers is totally kosher imo and there's a 50% chance it'll work of course the other 50% is it ending in a fist fight between you two.

Shadow Lodge

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I'm with DeathQuaker on this one. Let him know that this is a different kind of game. Actions have consequences, he has to earn his place as a hero, and the good guys don't just go about killing townsfolk while they sleep.

Offering an opportunity to play a mayhem one-shot might be a good idea if he still wants to try that, as long as he understands not to carry that behaviour over to the serious game.


Got it, the evil character is getting such a rep, that he is approached by crims, they wish to sell this degenerate some high grade narcotic, "Stygian, the best!" at a great price. They can take him to an opium den equivalent so he can get high in peace and safety.

If this char is all over cutting loose and giving into the id, he will take the bait. The drug is really strong, and knocks him out for quite some time, about a day to a day and a half. Describe the sensation and experience with just one simple paragraph. While drugged, a bounty is posted and the thieves turn the drugged pc into the authorities for the bounty money. Thieves would love a dangerous return-customer, but the reward money was too good to refuse.

When the pc comes out of his stupor, he has a noose around his neck. The trial and sentencing were rushed since he was abusive, violent but thankfully uncoordinated. The crowd boo and hiss, the floor gives way, and you can give the player a moment to "reflect on what he has recently done." This "right before his neck snaps like a chicken".

Get this wrapped up in 5-10 mins, then the game can continue. The motto is, don't be a crazy nutter and do drugs! Then ask if he wishes to play more sensibly and don't let he swears before the old gods and the new to do so. Annnd he has to make a new char, so that buys you time and for others to have their moments of fun.

Liberty's Edge

What is CRPS?


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One of the most important things to learn in life is how to play nice with each other. This applies in real life as well as in RP games. If one player is ruining the fun of several others, then you should point it out. If he can/will not stop playing in the disruptive manner, I think the others are correct. It is time for him to meet the guards in a very up close and personal manner. I would ban him from the table for a couple sessions, so he can build a new character.

On a side note, I read him as Neutral Evil:

Quote:
A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusions that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn't have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.


Make him pay for his actions. If he wants to harrass the gangs let them put out a hit on him. If you embarrass the mafia or even a street gang you can expect bad things to happen to you. It seems he is using the fact that you don't want to kill him to get away with things.

Trying talking to him away from the table also.


While there is a ton of great advice above, I will put a small vote for remembering it is your brother. Maybe start by asking him why he is doing this. Is he bored? Is he upset you get to be the GM? Find out the why, because you will have to live with him for some time and you may want to maintain at least a neutral relationship fo the future.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:
TimmyTheNerd wrote:

I'll talk to him tomorrow morning before my group gets together.

I honestly should have expected this behavior, since it matches his playstyle when it comes to games like Fable, Elder Scrolls and Fallout. He's use to being able to just steal and kill whatever he wants with little to no consequence.

As for why the other players haven't done anything, I don't allow PvP. They've tried talking to him, among otherthings.

If this does keep up after I talk with him, I will have Sandpoint put out wanted posters for his character.

Well there's your problem. Pvp is turned off. If a character is off the rails, the simplest solution can be for the party to clean house, kill him, get the xp and then move on. "Thanks for your time, your char is dead, let me know what you decide to bring in next week. Please don't fight the whole party again."

Totally not allowing pvp is not a supreme good, there can be plenty of good reasons to kill another character, or for some characters to side with non-pc factions against a member of the party: e.g. siding with bounty hunters, paladins, guardsmen against a nutter killer char.

Umm, no. You can't solve a OOC problem IC. In any case, eh's acting up as he wants more attention, thus that's exactly what he wants. Killing his PC will just encourage him.


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DrDeth wrote:
Umm, no. You can't solve a OOC problem IC. In any case, eh's acting up as he wants more attention, thus that's exactly what he wants. Killing his PC will just encourage him.

Eh... I'd have to disagree. If his character dies it establishes a boundary. Here's what happens when you play an evil/disruptive character. There has to be consequences to his character's actions. He's gotta learn somehow.

Sovereign Court

HangarFlying wrote:
What is CRPS?

.

Computer-RPGs

Sovereign Court

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I'm not saying that this new player rampage thing is a good thing. It can be pretty annoying to other players, too. But I just think it's unreasonable to expect everyone to act mature before they've had a chance to be immature. Experiencing other people's immaturity also makes it easier to see why your own immaturity might be annoying.

While the mayhem behavior may be insensitive to other players, it's probably not intended all that maliciously. Part of it is not knowing consequences - NPCs that band together to restore order and such, as well as missing out on the adventure. Part is not really realizing how annoying it is to the other players who are more focused on the plot.

RPGs are a bit different from most other games, people need to figure out how playing together works. It's just like you don't expect young children to be the best of board game companions right away; they need to learn to share and take losses too before they're fun to play with. RPGs are like that, people need to figure out the boundaries, you can't expect them to mystically know them.

---

I think the We Be Goblins suggestion is nice. I haven't read the module (a friend is saving it up), but from what I've heard it's a good mayhem module. And the suggestion of slaughtering them in the end is pretty good too.

Sovereign Court

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Had this happen before, back when we were kids, and some brats were used to getting all the attention and threw tantrums when they didn't. You have to cut it at the root. Either tell him to stop acting like a douche or kick him from the game.


Detect Magic wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Umm, no. You can't solve a OOC problem IC. In any case, eh's acting up as he wants more attention, thus that's exactly what he wants. Killing his PC will just encourage him.
Eh... I'd have to disagree. If his character dies it establishes a boundary. Here's what happens when you play an evil/disruptive character. There has to be consequences to his character's actions. He's gotta learn somehow.

Yep.

I once was this problem player. My grappler went way too far and got assassinated by the party ranger. I played ball after that. I have fun with chaotics, sometimes evils, but I never go as far as that grappler.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I have played with two of my brothers, and never had quite the problems you have.

As he is your brother, you likely have a better chance of getting it settled outside of game.

Avoid in-game passive-aggressive tactics, as they will lead to very bad things.


Detect Magic wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Umm, no. You can't solve a OOC problem IC. In any case, eh's acting up as he wants more attention, thus that's exactly what he wants. Killing his PC will just encourage him.
Eh... I'd have to disagree. If his character dies it establishes a boundary. Here's what happens when you play an evil/disruptive character. There has to be consequences to his character's actions. He's gotta learn somehow.

So he rolls up a new PC- likely a better one. How is that a "consequence"? And there's nothing stopping him from making the new guy "Phred II".


I think there's nothing wrong with playing an evil character as long as others are also evil. It's quite the same as if all the party was evil except for the paladin within the group, it just doesn't fit. Everybody should give their input before the campaign/game as which type of game they want to play, and after that play accordingly with what the group has decided, with of course some personal input but not too extremely far from what has been decided...

Shadow Lodge

Detect Magic wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Umm, no. You can't solve a OOC problem IC. In any case, eh's acting up as he wants more attention, thus that's exactly what he wants. Killing his PC will just encourage him.
Eh... I'd have to disagree. If his character dies it establishes a boundary. Here's what happens when you play an evil/disruptive character. There has to be consequences to his character's actions. He's gotta learn somehow.

Might discourage the behaviour, but it's only fair to give a clear verbal warning before killing the character. Especially if due to his CRP background he doesn't realize he's doing anything wrong. Especially if he's your brother and you want to get along with him outside the game.


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So he's your brother...

"MOM!"

:)

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