In Space, Nobody Can Hear You Laughing Your Lungs Out Of Your Chest...


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I have a Starsoul Sorcerer. At 11th level, he'll have a Robe of Arcane Heritage, and will be able to access his 15th level bloodline ability.

PRD wrote wrote:


At 15th level, your caster level is increased by 3 when casting spells of the teleportation subschool. In addition, once per day you can teleport a single creature within 30 feet into the void of space if it fails a Will save. The save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 your sorcerer level + your Charisma modifier. The target can attempt a new saving throw as a full-round action each round to return. While trapped in the airless void, the target suffers 6d6 points of cold damage per round and must hold its breath or begin to suffocate.
PRD wrote wrote:


A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. If a character takes a standard or full-round action, the remaining duration that the character can hold her breath is reduced by 1 round. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check in order to continue holding her breath. The check must be repeated each round, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success.

When the character fails one of these Constitution checks, she begins to suffocate. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates.

PRD wrote wrote:


This spell afflicts the subject with uncontrollable laughter. It collapses into gales of manic laughter, falling prone. The subject can take no actions while laughing, but is not considered helpless. After the spell ends, it can act normally. On the creature's next turn, it may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If this save is successful, the effect ends. If not, the creature continues laughing for the entire duration.

So, as near as I can tell, I have a once-per-day "Kill Anything That Breathes" ability that takes two rounds to execute, or one round with a Lesser Rod of Quicken Spell

Swift Action: Cast Heightened Hideous Laughter as a 5th level spell. Save DC is 10+5+9=24.
Standard Action: Send now-laughing NPC off into the depths of space. DC is 10+5+9=24

Technically the character, in space, now gets to take a Full Round Action to try to break the laughter, 6d6 cold damage. Except that while they're doing that full round action, and laughing, they most assuredly aren't holding their breath. So they go to 0 hit points and disabled (even if they make the second save), then go to -1 hit points, then die. The damage is all but irrelevant at that point...

Honestly, this seems like a really really overly potent ability combo. Most scenarios only have one Big Bad Evil Guy at the end, and taking him out in one round is going to be anti-climactic...which isn't really why we play the game.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

AdAstraGames wrote:

I have a Starsoul Sorcerer. At 11th level, he'll have a Robe of Arcane Heritage, and will be able to access his 15th level bloodline ability.

PRD wrote wrote:


At 15th level, your caster level is increased by 3 when casting spells of the teleportation subschool. In addition, once per day you can teleport a single creature within 30 feet into the void of space if it fails a Will save. The save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 your sorcerer level + your Charisma modifier. The target can attempt a new saving throw as a full-round action each round to return. While trapped in the airless void, the target suffers 6d6 points of cold damage per round and must hold its breath or begin to suffocate.
PRD wrote wrote:


A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. If a character takes a standard or full-round action, the remaining duration that the character can hold her breath is reduced by 1 round. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check in order to continue holding her breath. The check must be repeated each round, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success.

When the character fails one of these Constitution checks, she begins to suffocate. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates.

PRD wrote wrote:


This spell afflicts the subject with uncontrollable laughter. It collapses into gales of manic laughter, falling prone. The subject can take no actions while laughing, but is not considered helpless. After the spell ends, it can act normally. On the creature's next turn, it may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If this save is successful, the effect ends. If not, the creature continues laughing for the entire duration.
So, as near as I can tell, I have a once-per-day "Kill Anything...

Unfortunately, despite the Flavor Text, it does not work that way.

Your victim will return after suffering the 6d6 cold damage.

  • He/she will not have exploded due to pressure of the air in their lungs from being in hard vacuum. (In fact, breathing out - as the Hideous Laughter forces them to do - might actually save their life.) Nor will your victim be perminently blinded by the fluid inside their eyes freezing, etc.
  • He/she will not be unconcious due to suffocation. Which, b.t.w., would still take more then a six second combat round.

    The ability gives you the game effect stated in the ability. Nothing more - despite how it is described.

  • Dark Archive

    AdAstraGames wrote:

    I have a Starsoul Sorcerer. At 11th level, he'll have a Robe of Arcane Heritage, and will be able to access his 15th level bloodline ability.

    PRD wrote wrote:


    At 15th level, your caster level is increased by 3 when casting spells of the teleportation subschool. In addition, once per day you can teleport a single creature within 30 feet into the void of space if it fails a Will save. The save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 your sorcerer level + your Charisma modifier. The target can attempt a new saving throw as a full-round action each round to return. While trapped in the airless void, the target suffers 6d6 points of cold damage per round and must hold its breath or begin to suffocate.
    PRD wrote wrote:


    A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. If a character takes a standard or full-round action, the remaining duration that the character can hold her breath is reduced by 1 round. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check in order to continue holding her breath. The check must be repeated each round, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success.

    When the character fails one of these Constitution checks, she begins to suffocate. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates.

    PRD wrote wrote:


    This spell afflicts the subject with uncontrollable laughter. It collapses into gales of manic laughter, falling prone. The subject can take no actions while laughing, but is not considered helpless. After the spell ends, it can act normally. On the creature's next turn, it may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If this save is successful, the effect ends. If not, the creature continues laughing for the entire duration.
    So, as near as I can tell, I have a once-per-day "Kill Anything...

    I'm not sure that Lord Fyre read your entire post. But it seems to work as far as I can tell.

    But overpowered? Not at all. If the BBEG fails two saves, he dies. Check out Phantasmal Killer. It's only a 4th level spell for you. It does pretty much the same thing and only takes one round. Which is why save or dies aren't all they're cracked up to be. You either win the fight in one round or do nothing.

    Oh, also, I don't think you can use a lesser rod of quicken on a spell that's been heightened above 3rd level.


    Now, if you really want to make the 'suffocate and die' thing work, try trapping your victim in an Aqueous Orb after using Hideous Laughter instead.

    RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

    VorpalKitten wrote:
    I'm not sure that Lord Fyre read your entire post. But it seems to work as far as I can tell.

    You are correct, I did miss the detail about the victim staying out in space until he/she can make a successful save to return.

    Yes, if the victim is out in hard vacuum for more then one round, then yes they die.


    Lurk3r wrote:
    Now, if you really want to make the 'suffocate and die' thing work, try trapping your victim in an Aqueous Orb after using Hideous Laughter instead.

    I wonder if I'll get the chance to do this with my Earth Specialist Wizard.

    Liberty's Edge

    They will most likely die, but only if they continue to fail saves and take the damage, or they start to fail the holding breathe saving throws.

    Hideous laughter doesn't stop the ability to make saving throws for having no air and holding your breathe. He can take no actions while under it's effects sure, but that doesn't mean he can't make saving throws.

    They get their Con score x2 in rounds before they start making those checks for suffocation per the wording.

    Granted the damage may kill him, but probably not the suffocation part.

    A peon with a 10 con gets 20 rounds of no air before having to make suffocation checks.


    Winterwalker wrote:

    They will most likely die, but only if they continue to fail saves and take the damage, or they start to fail the holding breathe saving throws.

    Hideous laughter doesn't stop the ability to make saving throws for having no air and holding your breathe. He can take no actions while under it's effects sure, but that doesn't mean he can't make saving throws.

    They get their Con score x2 in rounds before they start making those checks for suffocation per the wording.

    Granted the damage may kill him, but probably not the suffocation part.

    A peon with a 10 con gets 20 rounds of no air before having to make suffocation checks.

    That peon with a 10 con gets 10 rounds if they're doing a standard or full round action...and they only get that time if they're holding their breath.

    When you are suffering from hideous laughter, you most assuredly aren't holding your breath.

    Which makes it look (a lot) like once you know the hideous laughter is going to stick (they don't make the second save...), you pop them out into the depths of space.

    Round 1 in space: Hideous laughter keeps them from taking a full round action to try the will save. They're no longer holding their breath. They drop to 0 HP and are disabled - no full round actions available. They also take 6d6 cold damage. We'll assume the 6d6 damage happens before they drop to 0 HP from suffocation rules.

    Round 2 in space: They're at -1 HP and unconscious, because they're no longer holding their breath. No full round actions to try to come back since they're unconscious. Oh, they also take 6d6 cold damage.

    Round 3 in space: They're dead. Either from another 6d6 cold damage while already at -HP, or because they die from suffocation rules.

    Liberty's Edge

    AdAstraGames wrote:
    Winterwalker wrote:

    They will most likely die, but only if they continue to fail saves and take the damage, or they start to fail the holding breathe saving throws.

    Hideous laughter doesn't stop the ability to make saving throws for having no air and holding your breathe. He can take no actions while under it's effects sure, but that doesn't mean he can't make saving throws.

    They get their Con score x2 in rounds before they start making those checks for suffocation per the wording.

    Granted the damage may kill him, but probably not the suffocation part.

    A peon with a 10 con gets 20 rounds of no air before having to make suffocation checks.

    That peon with a 10 con gets 10 rounds if they're doing a standard or full round action...and they only get that time if they're holding their breath.

    When you are suffering from hideous laughter, you most assuredly aren't holding your breath.

    Which makes it look (a lot) like once you know the hideous laughter is going to stick (they don't make the second save...), you pop them out into the depths of space.

    Round 1 in space: Hideous laughter keeps them from taking a full round action to try the will save. They're no longer holding their breath. They drop to 0 HP and are disabled - no full round actions available. They also take 6d6 cold damage. We'll assume the 6d6 damage happens before they drop to 0 HP from suffocation rules.

    Round 2 in space: They're at -1 HP and unconscious, because they're no longer holding their breath. No full round actions to try to come back since they're unconscious. Oh, they also take 6d6 cold damage.

    Round 3 in space: They're dead. Either from another 6d6 cold damage while already at -HP, or because they die from suffocation rules.

    Please re-read the suffocation rules. You are making bad assumptions on what 'holding my breathe' is.

    Also a 10 con score = 20 rounds before suffocation save is needed not 10. It is reduced by 1 round if they make an action, while laughing they can take no action granted, but that does not reduce the base 20 rounds any.

    Your argument that on round 1 they aren't holding their breathe has no RAW rules. Show me where Hideous Laughter says they can't hold their breathe to save their life and I will agree with you. (Though they could die with a smile on their face.)

    Supporting me is this line quoted earlier: "A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution."

    No air in space, check, no air from laughing sure. Ability to hold breathe still? check. They may still well die, but it wont be as you described an insta-gib.


    Yeah, stuff like this is why I like the Necklace of Adaptation.

    Liberty's Edge

    Option A I would invoke common sense and say that if you are not holding you breath in any given round treat it as taking an action thus making it Con Score rounds before you fall unconscious and to -1 HP.

    Option B If you want to go strictly RAW, nothing in Hideous Laughter explicitly says you can not hold your breath while under the effects. I realize common sense dictates otherwise, but if I am using this option common sense has already been stripped from the situation.


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    Ah yes. Ken's RAGELOUSEPANTS-INTO-SPACE.

    Liberty's Edge

    The second you have no air, you're holding your breathe. 1st line of the rules of suffaction state:

    "A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. "

    edit: Fixed.


    As I look at this, I think the hideous laughter is pointless. Why? Because as soon as you teleport the victim into space they are physically incapable of laughing. You need air to laugh, and suddenly having all the air around you sucked away in a vacuum would result, at least if I were the GM, in the dispelling of the Hideous Laughter spell. At that point the victim is holding their breath whether they like it or not, so in come the suffocation rules. Now the victim is using a full-round action every round to try and magically pop their way back to where they were via a new Will save. If they have a Con of 10, that means they are can make ten saves before they even need to worry about making the Con checks to continue holding their breath. Assume the victim fails all ten Will saves, and then has to make that Con check to keep holding their breath, that first check is DC 10, then they go up by one each round thereafter. As far as I can tell it doesn't say anywhere that that Con check to keep holding your breath is any kind of action at all, so consider it a non-action. Which means they can still make those full-round action Will saves to try and magically pop back to where they came from, as long as the Con check is successful.

    Is it a nasty ability? Yes, of course, you are talking about a 15th level caster, it should be nasty. Is it always an auto-kill? No, it isn't.

    That's my 2cp anyway.

    Edit: I forgot to point out that taking 6d6 damage from cold for ten rounds, depending on the dice rolls, and the victim's hit points, is just as likely to kill them as the suffocation might later on.

    Liberty's Edge

    Winterwalker wrote:
    graywulfe wrote:

    Option A I would invoke common sense and say that if you are not holding you breath in any given round treat it as taking an action thus making it Con Score rounds before you fall unconscious and to -1 HP.

    Option B If you want to go strictly RAW, nothing in Hideous Laughter explicitly says you can not hold your breath while under the effects. I realize common sense dictates otherwise, but if I am using this option common sense has already been stripped from the situation.

    The second you have no air, you're holding your breathe. 1st line of the rules of suffaction state:

    "A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. "

    What point of mine is this supposed to refute?

    Liberty's Edge

    graywulfe wrote:
    Winterwalker wrote:
    graywulfe wrote:

    Option A I would invoke common sense and say that if you are not holding you breath in any given round treat it as taking an action thus making it Con Score rounds before you fall unconscious and to -1 HP.

    Option B If you want to go strictly RAW, nothing in Hideous Laughter explicitly says you can not hold your breath while under the effects. I realize common sense dictates otherwise, but if I am using this option common sense has already been stripped from the situation.

    The second you have no air, you're holding your breathe. 1st line of the rules of suffaction state:

    "A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. "

    What point of mine is this supposed to refute?

    Option A I suppose.


    so at level 15 you get an ability to kill someone unless they succeed a will save.
    And you're an arcane caster.

    Sorry, I don't see the point of overpoweredness, or am I missing something essential?

    But for the rest, it seems to work that way. Most saves will be auto-fails, except that will save to get teleported in the first place.

    Edit: ok, there is an item to get access at lvl 11, but still, there is a whole lot needed. I think it's fair.

    Liberty's Edge

    Richard Leonhart wrote:

    so at level 15 you get an ability to kill someone unless they succeed a will save.

    And you're an arcane caster.

    Sorry, I don't see the point of overpoweredness, or am I missing something essential?

    But for the rest, it seems to work that way. Most saves will be auto-fails, except that will save to get teleported in the first place.

    Edit: ok, there is an item to get access at lvl 11, but still, there is a whole lot needed. I think it's fair.

    Casting the spells is not a question, it's the removal of saving throws for suffocating I am objecting too, and proving through RAW does not happen.

    Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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    Winterwalker is correct here, there's nothing in the Hideous Laughter spell that says it actually prevents someone from holding their breath. The idea that someone affected by uncontrollable laughter can't hold their breath is an assumption based on an interpretation of how the spell would interact in the situation in real life, not anything supported by RAW. It would be perfectly valid for the GM to say that the BBEG's saving throw to hold his breath represents him biting down on his cheeks and lips while he laughs to prevent his breath from escaping if you need a real life correlary to represent how he's doing it. It would prevent them from taking the full round action to return, though, increasing the odds of killing them through pure cold damage.


    Per strict RAW, I would say that Hideous Laughter does not prohibit you from holding your breath, because it doesn't say it does.

    Common sense obviously dictates otherwise, so I think resolving the situation would have to be up to the GM. Hideous Laughter would make you exhale, but in real life, exhaling without anything to inhale does not immediately cause you to go unconscious. It does reduce the amount of time you can hold your breath though. I would probably treat it as 1x Con rounds, instead of 2x, and still take away extra rounds for standard/full round actions taken.

    If it actually came up, I might treat underwater and vacuum differently. Hideous laughter underwater would make you not only exhale your air, but inhale water. In space, the inhalation shouldn't make much difference.

    And if you can actually get someone to laugh while immersed in acid or lava...

    Liberty's Edge

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    Gordon the Whale wrote:

    Per strict RAW, I would say that Hideous Laughter does not prohibit you from holding your breath, because it doesn't say it does.

    Common sense obviously dictates otherwise, so I think resolving the situation would have to be up to the GM. Hideous Laughter would make you exhale, but in real life, exhaling without anything to inhale does not immediately cause you to go unconscious. It does reduce the amount of time you can hold your breath though. I would probably treat it as 1x Con rounds, instead of 2x, and still take away extra rounds for standard/full round actions taken.

    If it actually came up, I might treat underwater and vacuum differently. Hideous laughter underwater would make you not only exhale your air, but inhale water. In space, the inhalation shouldn't make much difference.

    And if you can actually get someone to laugh while immersed in acid or lava...

    Common sense doesn't quite apply when you can wave a finger and send a guy to space though does it? ;)

    Liberty's Edge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Gordon the Whale wrote:

    ...

    If it actually came up, I might treat underwater and vacuum differently. Hideous laughter underwater would make you not only exhale your air, but inhale water. In space, the inhalation shouldn't make much difference.
    ...

    Interestingly, it does. Pure nitrogen (or any other inert gas) will knock a person unconscious fairly quickly if it's inhaled; the equilibrium partial pressure of oxygen is low enough in a pure nitrogen atmosphere (or under vacuum) that oxygen passes from the bloodstream to the lungs.


    John Woodford wrote:
    Gordon the Whale wrote:

    ...

    If it actually came up, I might treat underwater and vacuum differently. Hideous laughter underwater would make you not only exhale your air, but inhale water. In space, the inhalation shouldn't make much difference.
    ...
    Interestingly, it does. Pure nitrogen (or any other inert gas) will knock a person unconscious fairly quickly if it's inhaled; the equilibrium partial pressure of oxygen is low enough in a pure nitrogen atmosphere (or under vacuum) that oxygen passes from the bloodstream to the lungs.

    Good point. There are probably also issues with the blood in the lungs boiling. Space sucks.


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    So, does that mean that someone who's suffering from hideous laughter can be stealthy, since they can now hold their breath?

    Does this mean someone can now talk while holding their breath?

    I personally think that this is an overpowered ability for the context the character will be playing in, which is Pathfinder Society play, and as a result of Rule Zero of PFS play - "Don't make the other players regret sitting with you at the table" - I won't actually use it.

    But it is a really bizarre combination of abilities.

    FYI - I would love to see someone post a youtube video of "gales of manic laughter for a full minute" while holding one's breath. :)

    Really, the corner case here is with the suffocation rules.

    "What happens if circumstances keep you from holding your breath?"


    While it is a bad idea to try and equate real life with pathfinder, i dont think suggesting that uncontrollable laughter makes you exhale is wrong.... you dont have the option of breathing with your butt or having gouts of fire spurt forth from your nose every time you sneeze... there are SOME basic assumptions that can be made


    the issue about laughuin and holding your breath is ludicrous. The spell says the target laught incontrolably, since when someone that lugh incontrolably can hold their breath?


    I thought about this again, and wanted to take a look at the purely mechanical perspective. Meaning throw out all common sense and any semblance of reality.

    What is the OP mechanically proposing:

    1: as a Swift action cast Heightened Hideous Laughter as a 5th level spell.
    A Will Save of 10+5+(apparently)9 = 24.

    If the target of the spell fails the save the mechanical result is that they are prone and precluded from taking any action, until they have either made a subsequent save or the spell's duration has run it's course.

    Let's assume for the sake of argument the target fails the spell, they immediately fall prone, and are precluded from taking any action.

    2: Using a sorcerer ability and a standard action send the same target into the vacuum of space. This ability also has a Will save DC of 24.

    Let's assume, again for the sake of argument, that the target also fails that subsequent save. They have now been transported to space.

    On the target's initiative they will need to make a Will save at a DC of 24 to try and negate the Hideous Laughter. If that save fails they are going to be stuck unable to take an action for 11 rounds (see Hideous Laughter description). Being unable to take an action, by definition prevents them from using a full-round action to try and make the save against the sorcerer ability. Making the save negates the laughter.

    Let's assume, again for the sake of argument, that the target fails the Will save to negate the laughter. This has no effect on their ability to hold their breath, as breathing is not described as an action anywhere. Also holding your breath is not described as an action. As per the OP's quoted language for suffocation someone that has no air to breathe can hold their breath for 2 rounds per point of Con. With a Con of 10 this would mean 20 rounds. Even if the HL prevents actions, the target is still "holding their breath" as per the mechanical rules, because they have no air to breathe. So at the end of the 11th round, the laughter stops, and no longer prevents the target from using a full-round action to try and make the Will save to negate the sorcerer ability and return them to whence they came. (It's important to note at this point, that the target will have taken 6d6 damage for 11 rounds in a row, and, depending on the HP of the victim and the dice rolls, this could have killed them already, let's assume for a moment that it didn't though.) Each full-round action will reduce the total number of rounds left that the target can hold their breath by one. Assuming the original total was 20, and 12 (it will be in the 12th round the target can use a full-round action) have gone by, the target now has 7 remaining rounds to hold their breath. Assuming they use a full-round action each available round, they would still have 4 rounds (each one burning another round of holding breath) before they even have to make a Con check to keep holding their breath. Of course every round that goes by they continue to take that 6d6 cold damage, but mechanically they wouldn't start the suffocation process until they'd failed one of the Con checks beyond the rounds of holding their breath.

    If this falls under TLDR I can sum it up like this. What the OP proposes does work, just not mechanically the way they originally proposed.


    When does suffocation start when you cannot hold your breath? Assume "gales of uncontrollable, manic laughter" implies people have to inhale and exhale.

    I don't see any way the baby could hold its breath while laughing manically. :)

    (And yes, this is a low level sorcerer casting the spell multiple times with a severe circumstance bonus; we know he's low level because the duration per casting is so short. *grin*)

    Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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    Nicos wrote:
    the issue about laughuin and holding your breath is ludicrous. The spell says the target laught incontrolably, since when someone that lugh incontrolably can hold their breath?

    I've seen people trying desperately to contain laughter to the point of convulsions while choking off actual audible expressions. The point ios that there is nothing in the rules which says a person affected by Hideous Laughter cannot still use the hold your breath mechanic. Particularly since this is for PFS play, that means this combo does not work the way the OP thinks it does. It's still potentially potent, though, since it prevents them taking the action to break the ability.


    Quote:
    This spell afflicts the subject with uncontrollable laughter. It collapses into gales of manic laughter, falling prone.

    So, what part of "uncontrollable" means "can hold their breath"?

    What part of "gales" means something other than "inhales and exhales, forcefully"?

    These words, I do not think they mean what you think they mean.


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    AdAstraGames wrote:
    When does suffocation start when you cannot hold your breath? Assume "gales of uncontrollable, manic laughter" implies people have to inhale and exhale.
    Suffocation says
    Quote:
    A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution.

    In space there is no air. A character that is in space, has no air to breathe, thus they can hold their breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. "Laughing" has ZERO mechanical application. The mechanical application of the Hideous Laughter is the target taking the prone condition and being unable to take any other action. Holding your breath and breathing are not mechanical actions of any kind.

    Edit: Please realize that the fluff description of what a spell does MUST be separated from its mechanical application.


    For example, the Sleep spell causes magical slumber. Magical slumber has ZERO mechanical effect. The mechanics of the spell are that the target creature, should it fail a save, obtains the helpless condition. The helpless condition is removed if the target is slapped (read: hit with an unarmed strike) or otherwise wounded (read: takes HP damage). Mechanics and fluff can be difficult to separate sometimes, but as a player of this game you have to be able to do so.

    Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

    Thanks MendedWall, you expressed that very concisely.

    Liberty's Edge

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    AdAstraGames wrote:
    Quote:
    This spell afflicts the subject with uncontrollable laughter. It collapses into gales of manic laughter, falling prone.

    So, what part of "uncontrollable" means "can hold their breath"?

    What part of "gales" means something other than "inhales and exhales, forcefully"?

    These words, I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

    You are attempting to use common sense in one spot while ignoring it in others.

    Speaking from experience you do not immediately lose consciousness when you inhale liquid.


    graywulfe wrote:
    AdAstraGames wrote:
    Quote:
    This spell afflicts the subject with uncontrollable laughter. It collapses into gales of manic laughter, falling prone.

    So, what part of "uncontrollable" means "can hold their breath"?

    What part of "gales" means something other than "inhales and exhales, forcefully"?

    These words, I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

    You are attempting to use common sense in one spot while ignoring it in others.

    Speaking from experience you do not immediately lose consciousness when you inhale liquid.

    but you will lose consciousness faster than a person that hold his breath.


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    The key word here is "uncontrollable".

    Can someone under the effects of hideous laughter be perfectly silent by holding their breath?

    Can you laugh for 60 seconds - making noise - without exhaling and inhaling?

    If you're exhaling and inhaling, are you holding your breath?

    Alternatively - if we can decide that we have to mechanically separate the fluff from mechanical support on the rules:

    A cleric who has their holy symbol taken away cannot channel, agreed?

    Are you aware that the same sentence of that rule prohibits male clerics from channeling?

    Quote:
    Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.

    Nothing in channel energy specifically permits male clerics to channel.

    This is what happens when you argue "Rules As Written" trump common sense. You have to fill a book with a rule for everything...


    "A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution."

    It says if they dont have air to breathe they can hold their breath... it does not cover the ability or lack thereof to hold ones breath in the first place. If you cannot hold your breath for whatever reason then that line does not matter. Or are you suggesting that someone with lungs full of liquid are perfectly fine for just as long as someone who takes a deep breath first?


    No issue I can see here, works for me as a DM. Chances are your BBEG or even his subordinate are unlikely to roll that many low-saves in a row so at best you have a two-spell DoT that gives you a few free rounds to mop-up minions or ready yourself for his returning successful. Playing an aquatic campaign at the moment, had to get intimately familiar with drowning rules and realistically in-game it takes quite a while.

    It's almost a potentially deadly reverse Word of Peace from 3.5 Truenamers. If it actually works as you have described and kills the guy, then good on you, that is quite a stroke of luck. Personally, I'd go with disintegrate.


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    AdAstraGames wrote:

    The key word here is "uncontrollable".

    Can someone under the effects of hideous laughter be perfectly silent by holding their breath?

    Can you laugh for 60 seconds - making noise - without exhaling and inhaling?

    If you're exhaling and inhaling, are you holding your breath?

    Alternatively - if we can decide that we have to mechanically separate the fluff from mechanical support on the rules:

    A cleric who has their holy symbol taken away cannot channel, agreed?

    Are you aware that the same sentence of that rule prohibits male clerics from channeling?

    Quote:
    Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.

    Nothing in channel energy specifically permits male clerics to channel.

    This is what happens when you argue "Rules As Written" trump common sense. You have to fill a book with a rule for everything...

    There is a passage right at the start of the chapter about 3rd personal pronoun use applying to whatever fits the character at the time, to reflect not having to write he/she/it every time it would apply. Sorry.

    Liberty's Edge

    AdAstraGames wrote:

    The key word here is "uncontrollable".

    Can someone under the effects of hideous laughter be perfectly silent by holding their breath?

    Can you laugh for 60 seconds - making noise - without exhaling and inhaling?

    If you're exhaling and inhaling, are you holding your breath?

    Alternatively - if we can decide that we have to mechanically separate the fluff from mechanical support on the rules:

    A cleric who has their holy symbol taken away cannot channel, agreed?

    Are you aware that the same sentence of that rule prohibits male clerics from channeling?

    Quote:
    Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.

    Nothing in channel energy specifically permits male clerics to channel.

    This is what happens when you argue "Rules As Written" trump common sense. You have to fill a book with a rule for everything...

    I agree with your statement about RAW, though your example has been disproved many times as not true.

    I am arguing first that RAW holding your breath needs common sense applied in this situation. In reality, if you fail to hold your breath in an environment that does not have oxygen to support you, you do not immediately fall unconscious. Therefore failing to hold your breath in a vacuum should not immediately equal unconsciousness, in fact it has been shown that not holding your breath is a far better survivability option.

    Nicos wrote:
    graywulfe wrote:
    AdAstraGames wrote:
    Quote:
    This spell afflicts the subject with uncontrollable laughter. It collapses into gales of manic laughter, falling prone.

    So, what part of "uncontrollable" means "can hold their breath"?

    What part of "gales" means something other than "inhales and exhales, forcefully"?

    These words, I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

    You are attempting to use common sense in one spot while ignoring it in others.

    Speaking from experience you do not immediately lose consciousness when you inhale liquid.

    but you will lose consciousness faster than a person that hold his breath.

    Hence when I first proposed how I would handle this situation. I stated, poorly, that I would treat any round where you did not hold your breath as a round that you took a full round action for the purposes of the holding your breath mechanic. That mechanic is:

    PRD wrote:


    If a character takes a standard or full-round action, the remaining duration that the character can hold her breath is reduced by 1 round.

    This effectively reduces your rounds able to hold your breath to you Con Score instead of (Con Score)x2.

    Liberty's Edge

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    @AdAstraGames: You are fighting hard against RAW, but the fact remains that your combo as written is not the 1-2 punch you made it out to be.

    They still get saving throws in space for suffocation as there's nothing written preventing them from doing so just because they are under the effects of Hideous Laughter. In fact the only thing I would enforce per the RAW is that while in space they are 'prone' and if they choose to could try to spend an action to stop laughing, and reduce their rounds they can hold their breath by 1.

    We have specific rules already covering how to handle this scenario, and unless there's another rule written to trump it, it's not trumped.

    And just to be even more clear after round 1, he still gets to make a new save to return whether he chose to try and stop laughing or not.

    Lantern Lodge

    I'm seeing this as

    1) The Target (assuming both spells/powers hit.) How has his Con/2 round + DC 10 to hold breath number of turns to take any actions.

    He WILL take 6d6 points of damage each turn.

    2) He will have to use Full round actions to make a save from Hideous Laughter first!
    Hideous Laughter forces the target to break it's effect or he will be unable to take any action while laughing.

    3) If he saves against Hideous Laughter, he can not take Full-round actions to make a save against the bloodline ability.

    Should be make a save against the bloodline ability, he will now return.

    -----

    While it is a nasty combo, it is not an instant-kill. More of a very difficult and painful to get out of one.


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    Alright, normally I would not weigh in on something this esoteric but here goes:

    First: NASA Link on surviving a vacuum in space

    Summary: blood does not boil, as long as you exhale you suffer minimal lung damage, survival is measured in tens of seconds up to a couple minutes (yes, with NO air in the lungs). Unconciousness occurs in around 14 seconds (as per an accident where they discovered this).

    How does this apply? Well, it doesnt. This is a game of fiction. The RAW on Hideous Laughter does not state you cannot hold your breath. The RAW on the Starsoul ability does not state that a lungfull of air causes extra damage (as per the link above).

    So where does that leave us? With a guy stuck in space, laughing his butt off while holding his breath. Since it is a full-round action to try to get back and he cannot take full-round action while under the effects of Hideous Laughter he is stuck there until either the teleportation effect wears off or until the Hideous Laughter stops and he can start making saves.

    - Gauss

    RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

    Gauss wrote:

    Alright, normally I would not weigh in on something this esoteric but here goes:

    First: NASA Link on surviving a vacuum in space

    Summary: blood does not boil, as long as you exhale you suffer minimal lung damage, survival is measured in tens of seconds up to a couple minutes (yes, with NO air in the lungs). Unconciousness occurs in around 14 seconds (as per an accident where they discovered this).

    This is what I was trying to get to originally.

    Exhaling (as the Hideous Laughter forces the victim to do) will actually help the victim - initially.

    But, as was pointed out, if the victim cannot escape the Hideous Laughter spell, he/she will not escape the Sorcerer ability. In other word, they will be stranded, unconcious, in Hard Vacuum. So, the victim will fall unconcious, and then die.

    What it does mean is that, if the victim can break the Hideous Laughter in that first round, he/she will be concious to return on the second (Yes, they are likely at "0" hit points and staggered) and still be alive.


    Except for one thing: Hideous Laughter does not state that you cannot hold your breath. Any statement to the contrary is not RAW and is clearly GM Fiat. Does it make sense? Sure. Should it occur? Meh. I can screw someone up better with other spells. I don't need this particular 2spell combination.

    - Gauss


    Gauss wrote:

    Except for one thing: Hideous Laughter does not state that you cannot hold your breath. Any statement to the contrary is not RAW and is clearly GM Fiat. Does it make sense? Sure. Should it occur? Meh. I can screw someone up better with other spells. I don't need this particular 2spell combination.

    - Gauss

    http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/hold+breath

    hold one's breath
    1. Lit. to stop breathing for a short period, on purpose
    Etymology: based on the literal meaning of hold your breath (to stop breathing)

    hideous laughter

    This spell afflicts the subject with uncontrollable laughter. It collapses into gales of manic laughter, falling prone.

    Laughing: Laughter causes significant pressure on lung walls, expelling air more quickly than during natural breathing. This may cause a human to breath more quickly or deeply in order to reoxygenate blood.

    So to hold your breath you have to do it on purpose and hideous laughter stop you from do that. The words are there so it is RAW.

    RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

    Gauss wrote:

    Except for one thing: Hideous Laughter does not state that you cannot hold your breath. Any statement to the contrary is not RAW and is clearly GM Fiat. Does it make sense? Sure. Should it occur? Meh. I can screw someone up better with other spells. I don't need this particular 2spell combination.

    - Gauss

    Yes, there are more efficient spells (& spell combos), but, if we are going to through logic, common sense, and physics out the window, we might as well play Chess.


    Nicos: And since when do definitions matter to this game? As an example I point out 'must' where 'must' is not 'must' when it is cannibalized two lines later?

    Effects are spelled out. Anything else is supposition. Since it is not spelled out that you cannot hold your breath it is supposition. BUT, as I stated before it is clearly within GM fiat territory to state that you cannot hold your breath while under the effects of Hideous Laughter. For some reason people seem to think GM fiat is a dirty word. To that I say: RAW without common sense is meaningless.

    Lord Fyre: Logic and Physics are thrown out all the time in this game. Just look at the rules for falling where the terminal speed is not correct and where a person can fall a mile and only suffer the equivalent of minor scrapes. Oh, and firearms are radically incorrect if we are looking at logic, common sense, and physics. A muzzleloader firing between 2 to 5 times in 6seconds (not including magic)? Utterly, completely rediculous. Not remotely possible. And yet, we have it.

    - Gauss

    Grand Lodge

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    Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

    Why not combine with the Steal Breath spell?

    Why not simply use the Instant Suffocation spell?


    Gauss wrote:

    And since when does definitions matter to this game? As an example I point out 'must' where 'must' is not 'must' when it is cannibalized two lines later?

    Effects are spelled out. Anything else is supposition. Since it is not spelled out that you cannot hold your breath it is supposition. BUT, as I stated before it is clearly within GM fiat territory to state that you cannot hold your breath while under the effects of Hideous Laughter. For some reason people seem to think GM fiat is a dirty word. To that I say: RAW without common sense is meaningless.

    - Gauss

    i agree with this. "To that I say: RAW without common sense is meaningless."

    but i do not underestand the rest of our post. RAW is rules as written, hold yur breaht is to stop breathing on purpose,laughter is basically to breath. that are the meaning of the words and those words are written in the rules.

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