100+ ways Pathfinder is not scientific


Homebrew and House Rules

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Silver Crusade

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Xuttah wrote:
Somehow, I imagine it as the shattered remains of a luxury hotel room...

Nah, they are on typewriters trying to hack out a script on Hamlet.


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43: Replaces the Mantle with Underdark and the core with some gravity artifact or a portal to the plane of Earth.

Silver Crusade

Although there is strong evidence that the Earth is hollow.


44. If you travel into the sun. you do not die because of heat, radiation or tidal forces, but because you get an overload of "positive energy" (which does not mean cancer).

45. Vitalism (for an example see above).

46. A falchion is a two-handed scimitar, not an one-handed hacking blade.


47: In Pathfinder, crush depth at the ocean bottom is a DM option, not a fact of life.

Silver Crusade

48. There are no critical strikes that do specific damage to an area of the body. Spells do not cause said critical strikes. And you don't get options like: The Lightning Bolt lights up your foe like a christmas tree! or Foe suffers a fireball and is reduced to ash and dies; or my friend's favorite: Foe is blasted by primeval magic and turns to a puddle of goo and foe dies in one round.


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Indagare wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
One would assume that's because you typically are a PC and on an adventure? Just because we cannot see certain things doesn't mean they aren't there. Otherwise, we would all surely die due to utter lack of oxygen.
Point me to a rule which says PCs gain experience points between adventures - or that anyone can gain experience from being a tailor, smith, baker or whatever without also being an adventurer at some point.

I assume that NPCs could gain experience in the same way PCs do. One of the ways PCs may earn experience points is by achieving certain objectives or story related elements are completed.

PRD wrote:
Story Awards: Feel free to award Story Awards when players conclude a major storyline or make an important accomplishment. These awards should be worth double the amount of experience points for a CR equal to the APL. Particularly long or difficult story arcs might award even more, at your discretion as GM.


Ashiel wrote:
Indagare wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
One would assume that's because you typically are a PC and on an adventure? Just because we cannot see certain things doesn't mean they aren't there. Otherwise, we would all surely die due to utter lack of oxygen.
Point me to a rule which says PCs gain experience points between adventures - or that anyone can gain experience from being a tailor, smith, baker or whatever without also being an adventurer at some point.

I assume that NPCs could gain experience in the same way PCs do. One of the ways PCs may earn experience points is by achieving certain objectives or story related elements are completed.

PRD wrote:
Story Awards: Feel free to award Story Awards when players conclude a major storyline or make an important accomplishment. These awards should be worth double the amount of experience points for a CR equal to the APL. Particularly long or difficult story arcs might award even more, at your discretion as GM.

This quandry is why commoner and noble were made classes.

NPCs gain levels by practicing professions, arts, and yes crafts.
I usually don't track their XP points, why bother.


49. Dragons

Silver Crusade

Shadowborn wrote:
49. Dragons

Yeah, it's totally not cool to fight dragons made out of electrically charged particles and are the size of planets. :)


50. Gold, silver, platinum and copper have fixed exchange rates, regardless of their actual scarcity.


Indagare wrote:
Ciaran Barnes wrote:
NPCs don't need experience points, only a a DM to decide what level they are.
Hence why I say it's unscientific. A scientific way of dealing with experience points would ensure that everyone would gain experience in a consistent way, rather than having it be randomly assigned without any explanation whatsoever.

You unscientifically ignored this response as it invalidated your hypothesis:

Xuttah wrote:
Social encounters often have CRs attached to them, as do skill checks. While not reverting you do as an npc class is worth xp, those encounters with a CR do, so you can level up without having a traditional adventure.

Badwrongscience, Indagare ;)

Edit: Also, what Ashiel said.


MagiMaster wrote:
10) Convection Schmonvection

Lava doesn't produce radiant heat either.


I figure most npcs earn about 100-200 xp every few months, depending on how civilized the area is. They have things like CR 1/4 challenge: Rats in the seed grain and CR 1/2 challenge: plow horse dies that they need to overcome.

Also, 51) someone can go from having no knowledge about a subject to being an expert in the field (dumping all skill points into one skill) over the period of 1 day.


Goth Guru wrote:


2) Falling damage should go up geometricly.

How did you come to this conclusion? Fall damage would be proportional to energy transfered on falling which is Mass X Height X Gravity.


The Oddity wrote:
Goth Guru wrote:
2) Falling damage should go up geometricly. A 10 foot drop does 1D6 damage. A 20 foot drop does 1D6 * 1D6 or 1-36 damage in excessive realism.

Actually, this is incorrect. Sure, gravity is constantly accelerating you as you fall, but as you gain velocity it takes you less time to travel through each 10' increment so for each 10' you fall you have less time to accelerate before hitting the next 10' increment. (Wow that sounds confusing)

In any case, the formula for calculating your velocity after falling a given distance is:

v = square root of (2 * acceleration * distance)

(assuming 0 initial velocity and ignoring wind resistance)
If we punch in 32 feet per second squared for gravity (messy imperial units, I know) and adjust to mph, we can arrive at the following approximate velocities for distance fallen:

10' 17mph
20' 24mph
30' 30mph
40' 35mph
50' 39mph
60' 42mph
70' 46mph
80' 49mph
90' 52mph
100' 55mph
110' 57mph
120' 60mph
130' 62mph
140' 65mph
150' 67mph
160' 69mph
170' 71mph
180' 73mph
190' 75mph
200' 77mph

So, if we consider that fall damage is a factor of how fast you are going when you hit the ground, 1d6 per 10' is actually too much damage. If each 17mph increment represents 1d6 damage, then you shouldn't take 2d6 until 40', 3d6 until 90', 4d6 until 150' or 160', and you never reach 5d6 (85mph).

My god the things I do to avoid watching recorded CW shows with my wife!

You did a bunch of math but ignored the fundamentals of physics. Energy is proportional to Velocity Squared not velocity.


Indagare wrote:
Ciaran Barnes wrote:
NPCs don't need experience points, only a a DM to decide what level they are.
Hence why I say it's unscientific. A scientific way of dealing with experience points would ensure that everyone would gain experience in a consistent way, rather than having it be randomly assigned without any explanation whatsoever.

Science doesn't decide how the world works. It describes the world. If the world is based on randomly assigned experience points, than you its still scientific even if its not consistent. Quantum Mechanics has a great deal of arbitrary things in it.


johnlocke90 wrote:
Goth Guru wrote:


2) Falling damage should go up geometricly.
How did you come to this conclusion? Fall damage would be proportional to energy transfered on falling which is Mass X Height X Gravity.

I watched Nova or somesuch a few years ago. Then they thought speed and acceleration accumulated. They may have since done new experiments that showed acceleration is a constant.

In other words, I did not do the experiments and observations, so I did not come to the conclusion.

Lantern Lodge

Acceleration accumulates with the reduction of drag so the space shuttle gets faster acceleration as the air gets thinner. Don't know you saw but that may have been a discussed variable.


Dust Raven wrote:
Goth Guru wrote:
2) Falling damage should go up geometricly. A 10 foot drop does 1D6 damage. A 20 foot drop does 1D6 * 1D6 or 1-36 damage in excessive realism.
Since damage, or rather, loss of hit points, doesn't actually represent actual structural damage or injury, falling damage can be pretty much anything and remain "realistic".

Well, really damage would need to be based on the force imparted into the ground and as an equal and opposite reaction into your body. Which is not a question of distance.

F = MA^2 Force = Mass X acceleration squared

So the first change to occur to make it realistic would be adjust damage dice to accommodate for changes in mass or size category.

Then the much more important change would be for the acceleration of the falling object, which is why distance doesn't matter too much. The acceleration of a falling object is the pull of gravity (32.2ft/s /s)

Since the majority of force comes from acceleration, you would have to base the number of dice solely off the distance traveled to allow for speed.

The character, let's say a medium sized character would fall 32.2ft in the first second of falling, so 1d6? Then in the next second of falling he will fall 64.4ft for a total of 96.6ft. So how many d6 would that be? Since acceleration is the majority of force and the character still has fairly little acceleration, he would still have fairly little force.

Now 1d6 per 10ft can be realistic, say should the creature land poorly. In emergency medicine we consider any fall in excess of twice the height of the patient, to be a life threatening fall. But that is assuming that the patient landed poorly on hard ground. We've seen people fall far enough to reach terminal velocity 183.7ft/s and live through it. Usually with severe injuries, but once with little to no injuries (she fell from a plane and landed in trees.)

So yea, I'm not sure there is a way to do falling damage realistically.


Quote:


F = MA^2 Force = Mass X acceleration squared

So yea, I'm not sure there is a way to do falling damage realistically.

I promised myself I wouldn't get into this, but I am weak willed.

First, F=MA. There is no squared. Second, in either case, since M is a constant (for the falling object) and A is a constant (for short enough distances), F is always the same number, regardless of the distance fallen.

In Pathfinder, the way we measure falling damage is through the distance fallen. Damage is the result of energy and E=mgh. Therefore, falling damage is a function of distance fallen (with the caveat that it maxes out at 200 feet).


mrofmist wrote:
Dust Raven wrote:
Goth Guru wrote:
2) Falling damage should go up geometricly. A 10 foot drop does 1D6 damage. A 20 foot drop does 1D6 * 1D6 or 1-36 damage in excessive realism.
Since damage, or rather, loss of hit points, doesn't actually represent actual structural damage or injury, falling damage can be pretty much anything and remain "realistic".

Well, really damage would need to be based on the force imparted into the ground and as an equal and opposite reaction into your body. Which is not a question of distance.

F = MA^2 Force = Mass X acceleration squared

So the first change to occur to make it realistic would be adjust damage dice to accommodate for changes in mass or size category.

Then the much more important change would be for the acceleration of the falling object, which is why distance doesn't matter too much. The acceleration of a falling object is the pull of gravity (32.2ft/s /s)

Since the majority of force comes from acceleration, you would have to base the number of dice solely off the distance traveled to allow for speed.

The character, let's say a medium sized character would fall 32.2ft in the first second of falling, so 1d6? Then in the next second of falling he will fall 64.4ft for a total of 96.6ft. So how many d6 would that be? Since acceleration is the majority of force and the character still has fairly little acceleration, he would still have fairly little force.

Now 1d6 per 10ft can be realistic, say should the creature land poorly. In emergency medicine we consider any fall in excess of twice the height of the patient, to be a life threatening fall. But that is assuming that the patient landed poorly on hard ground. We've seen people fall far enough to reach terminal velocity 183.7ft/s and live through it. Usually with severe injuries, but once with little to no injuries (she fell from a plane and landed in trees.)

So yea, I'm not sure there is a way to do falling damage realistically.

That's probably because in real life, the damage of the fall has as much if not more to do with what you landed on and how you landed than the distance travelled.


The Terrible Zodin wrote:
Quote:


F = MA^2 Force = Mass X acceleration squared

So yea, I'm not sure there is a way to do falling damage realistically.

I promised myself I wouldn't get into this, but I am weak willed.

First, F=MA. There is no squared. Second, in either case, since M is a constant (for the falling object) and A is a constant (for short enough distances), F is always the same number, regardless of the distance fallen.

In Pathfinder, the way we measure falling damage is through the distance fallen. Damage is the result of energy and E=mgh. Therefore, falling damage is a function of distance fallen (with the caveat that it maxes out at 200 feet).

Totally correct sorry, I was thinking about e = 1/2ma

Grand Lodge

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Anyone else notice how this quickly devolved into a physics debate?

52) Dwarves, which lived unground for millenia and moved to the surface have no light sensitivity. Orcs on the other hand who were driven before said dwarves do.

53) No natural evolution/adaptation of a species. Orcs have been on the surface for hundreds of years and yet they still have light sensitivity.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

54. It takes less time to reload a crossbow than it does to fire it (light crossbow, anyway).

55. If you are rich enough, death is pretty much just a minor setback.

56. It is impossible to attempt to conceal an object on your person unless you are a skilled pickpocket.

57. You can train for months with a given weapon and never get any better at using it. But you can slay a few monsters and suddenly be a master of a completely different weapon that you've never touched before.

58. Don't get me started on the drowning rules. It takes ~18 seconds for an unconscious person to die underwater, but it can take a couple minutes for a garrote wire to have any effect on the target.

59. Sudden deceleration is only damaging if you were moving downwards. If you ready an action to create a wall of force in front of a dragon flying at full speed, the dragon simply stops moving.

60. While we are on the fly rules, every 6 seconds flying creatures get to completely change direction without taking any time or effort to do so... but changing direction in between these 6 second intervals is difficult and taxing.


Rob Duncan wrote:
Since we're being very scientific, a d10 is not a platonic solid. o_O

Very true, but no one ever said that all dice had to be platonic solids, now did they?


GM Elton wrote:

48. There are no critical strikes that do specific damage to an area of the body. Spells do not cause said critical strikes. And you don't get options like: The Lightning Bolt lights up your foe like a christmas tree! or Foe suffers a fireball and is reduced to ash and dies; or my friend's favorite: Foe is blasted by primeval magic and turns to a puddle of goo and foe dies in one round.

That has more to do with GM not taking the opportunity to describe the spells effects than anything else.


Correction on 2)Scientific falling damage takes pages of calculations and leads to redundancies like infinity percent.


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61) Some creatures are perpetual motion machines: they can expend energy without ever needing to eat or recharge. Put those zombies on a treadmill, and reap infinite energy!


62) Somehow repeating crossbows, sling staffs, slings all involve fire in their operation.

The Exchange

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leveling up at a profession or craft is easy, once you have earn enough money to go up on the NPC wealth by level table they have become skilled enough at their craft/profession to level up :D


One could argue that Pathfinder is TOO scientific. For example, there is far too much rationality (look up the word "ratio" to understand what I'm saying) in the magic system.

To cast a spell is little more than to use a screwdriver or drive a nail. It's an applied force, with a predictable outcome and we argue the +/-'s all day on this board. There's nothing more scientific than that.


Owly wrote:

One could argue that Pathfinder is TOO scientific. For example, there is far too much rationality (look up the word "ratio" to understand what I'm saying) in the magic system.

To cast a spell is little more than to use a screwdriver or drive a nail. It's an applied force, with a predictable outcome and we argue the +/-'s all day on this board. There's nothing more scientific than that.

63) If the bandits attack your camp in the night, you can still use a screwdriver or hammer a nail. You need that 8 hours to recharge your spell slots.

64) I wish I could get a ring of sustenance so I only need 4 hours sleep a night.


65) Damage reduction seems to stop touch attacks. How? Stunning fist and quavering palm don't need to break the skin. Watch boxing. Few if any TKOs ever break the skin.


Goth Guru wrote:
65) Damage reduction seems to stop touch attacks. How? Stunning fist and quavering palm don't need to break the skin. Watch boxing. Few if any TKOs ever break the skin.

Boxing is a bard comparison. A better one would be things like muay thai matches,or UFC before they had all the rules.

Even highschool fights are a better comparison. Bloody lips, broken noses, broken jaws, black/swollen eyes. Those things all happen in fist fights. Remember, Unarmed Strikes, clubs, staffs, Slam Attacks etc are all Bludgeoning damage. They don't need to break skin to deal damage.


How about a tazer? Also...
66) Why doesn't rubber armor stop lightning and shocking grasp in Pathfinder?


MagiMaster wrote:
10) Convection Schmonvection

Doesn't Pathfinder have a limited convection system? I was sure there were rules for getting too close to lava without getting into it.


67) Laughing in the vacuum of space or underwater has no effect on ones ability to hold ones breath.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kthulhu wrote:
Wouldn't it be easier to list the limited number of ways it IS scientifically accurate? :P

Or even better yet, remember that Pathfinder is descended from a game called Dungeons and Dragons, not Beakers and Slide Rules?

Lantern Lodge

Goth Guru wrote:

How about a tazer? Also...

66) Why doesn't rubber armor stop lightning and shocking grasp in Pathfinder?

Actually quite simple, because there is no rubber in PF, and if there was, lightning fills the entire 5' space (so wouldn't stop it unless you are 100% airtight sealed in rubber, though it might give a bonus to the reflex save) and it doesn't help at all vs a touch attack that touches somewhere un-protected by the rubber (so still doesn't prevent lightning, just makes it harder to deliver maybe by adding bonus vs. lightning touch attacks)

----

Number 67 applies to real life too, depending on your laugh though no garuntee on the taste of the water.

68) Gods are people sitting on thrones somewhere.


69)

It takes the same amount of mithral to make armor for a halfling as it does a frost giant.


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Irbis wrote:
39. You can die of old age even if you don't age anymore.

If you're referring to Monk and Druid's Timeless Body class ability, it's inaccurate. They don't take age penalties, but they still age, and thus die. Such as those old martial arts masters that despite age are still acrobatic, quick and strong.

Anyway, reading the title of the thread I thought it was about unreasonable (real or perceived) rules to represent reality or lack of reasonable ones (such as the aforementioned lack of heat from lava), not about all the fantsy stuff that is in the game. Did we really need someone to point out that bizarre fey living under the rainbow are not scientific? Then I'll point out that in our world water is wet, just in case someone didn't notice.


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Astral Wanderer wrote:
Then I'll point out that in our world water is wet, just in case someone didn't notice.

My packet of dehydrated water disagrees with you!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
beej67 wrote:

69)

It takes the same amount of mithral to make armor for a halfling as it does a frost giant.

Actually no it doesn't. You have to calclulate from the base cost of the armor and it's weight which differs for small and large creatures.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

What a fun thread!

70) Halflings and other small humanoids have the same amount of difficulty squeezing through prison bars as a human or other medium humanoid does despite being half the size in most dimensions.

71) Lightning spells do not conduct into metal or water much of the time.

72) A gunman can reload and fire a pair of double-barreled flintlock pistols with only two hands over a dozen times in only six seconds.

73) Any number of mundane weapons, armor, and gear don't weigh the appropriate amounts (presumably, because bulkiness = weight). The reverse is also true. You could carry 10,000 sheets of papers or rings and not be encumbered in the slightest.


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74. Protecting your groin with an armoured kilt makes you harder to hit on the head.


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VRMH wrote:
74. Protecting your groin with an armoured kilt makes you harder to hit on the head.

To be fair, some people do have their heads so far up their butts that this may actually be possible.

Lantern Lodge

73 is not so accurate on the weapons. Longswords really did weigh only 4lbs. The Alexandrian discussed this a bit (and any weapon I have ever held, which is quite a few, comes pretty close to book figures). A chain shirt can weigh from 20 to 40 lbs depending on weave. And half plate weighs about 50 lbs. (Talking experience here on those armor figures, the armor check penalty needs more fixing then wt on armors)

I can see a possible disparity for some gear, and definately for the weightless items, but not so much for weapons and armor.

Liberty's Edge

Theos Imarion wrote:
38. You can move faster then light i.e. teleportation

Wrong you're traveling through the Astral Plane which touches everywhere on the material plane. Well actually maybe if you replace phase shift with that sentence...


Suzaku wrote:
Theos Imarion wrote:
38. You can move faster then light i.e. teleportation
Wrong you're traveling through the Astral Plane which touches everywhere on the material plane. Well actually maybe if you replace phase shift with that sentence...

I agree. I always saw teleportation magic similar to space folding or Event-Horizon (the movie) type movement.

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