Can we maybe move the discussion about addiction into its own thread on "Off-Topic Discussions?"
ya, I apologize about starting an argument on the forums; certainly wasn't my intent. I was more mentioning something I saw about a character and it got away from me =,(
First look at the assembled Suicide Squad (sort of, with a few extras).
...I also think if they make [Laurel] Black Canary-ish, which they've said is in the plan, it is part of a very slow plan---like, we won't see her like that until season 3 or even 4.
I originally expected them to kill Sara and have Laurel take up her mantle to honor her, but I actually hope they do something less unexpected. Perhaps Sara will end up training Laurel, for example.
I would really rather not see Laurel as Black Canary, ever. Two reasons (neither of which is "I hate Laurel" because I don't, she merely disappoints me) --
One, I don't see her adding anything to the Black Canary identity; Sara already has the look, the sonic attack, a relationship with Ollie and a back story reason for having taken the name -- what would Laurel do differently that wouldn't distance her from the Canary identity as well as from Sara's stamp on it? Wear a blonde wig? Granted that would be a nod to the original comic character, and carrying on for Sara would be a reason to go blonde, but in costume there'd be no appreciable difference between Canaries I and II, making it change for the sake of change.
Two, Sara had years of training and daily life threatening hardship to build up the skills she has now. It would be insulting to hand the mantle off to a replacement in what would amount to a montage, even if it gets spread over a full season in two-minute scenes.
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With Diggle and Felicity (and her dad!) already having proven that one can make a difference without putting on a mask and stepping onto the front lines with Ollie, I think Laurel's journey would be better served by getting her stuff sorted out and continuing on her *own* path, as a lawyer, and, eventually, assistant DA and DA and perhaps even mayor (many years from now), instead of trying to fill Sara's shoes.
I think, a problem with the entire Lance family (particularly ma and pa Lance), is that they've already allowed enough of their lives to be affected by what does and does not happen with Sara, which is pretty much the entire point of Laurel's little freakout there.
Laurel then following in their footsteps and *also* changing her life to follow in some trail blazed by her sister would, IMO, be a step backwards, an admission of defeat, and that her parents were right to nearly ruin their own lives and careers (and wreck their marriage and tear apart their family) because of Sara-drama.
The perfect solution is to simply have Sara start training Laurel as a re-bonding experience between the two. I'm almost finished re-watching season 1 on Netflix and rediscovered the potential that Laurel has had the entire time. On several occasions she demonstrated her toughness and fighting skills so she's really not that far off. Season 1 Laurel was actually a well written character. I think the band wagon hating was mostly due to people's love of the idea of Olicity (which I am against) VS. something Laurel specifically did. Season 2 Laurel is different: they started making her into baggage and putting her in too much in opposition to both Arrow/Oliver. Her being apart of the prosecution team against Moria and going after Arrow were dumb moves by the writers. So if the writers can get their heads out of their bums Laurel could easily be a valuable part of Team Arrow by the end of the season.
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So, exactly one episode after Laurel seems to be flying off the rails, she's pulling it together. (It feels longer, because of the Olympics break, obviously, and I kind of think that was a good time for a break, because, these two episodes back to back might have felt a little whiplash-y in the characterization.)
I do feel kind of like Ollie and Sara hooking up last episode (all of maybe ten hours ago in-universe, even if was last month for us viewers) was force-rushed just to give Laurel something to yell at them about this episode, but I'm willing to overlook that.
Gosh, that face. Laurel is looking more and more like the Joker, ever episode.
Clock King was neat in this, but I could have used more of him and less Laurel-drama (though she at least decided to try and get her s%+@ together by the end).
I liked Felicity's little arc there, wonder if she's going to learn how to defend herself now. Not saying I'd like to see her turn into another crime fighter, she seems to work better as a character as mission control, but it just seems smart to know self-defense when you're running with that kind of crowd.
Also, Felicidiggle OTP.
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The scar comparing scene was awesome, when Felicity tried to get in on it and Sara was like, 'She's so cute!'
I kind of like how this episode managed to squeeze in both story and a new villain / related action. There are episodes of both this show and others that I watch and wonder how the heck they managed to stretch all that empty nothing out to 45 minutes, but this show seems able to pack in some movement, either by dividing up plots between island flashbacks and current day stuff, or by interweaving characterization-advancing development stuff with the fights and action we come to see in a show spun off from a comic book.
Yeah I would like at least a nod to those two sub-plots. The Queen Consolidated one has been conspicuously absent for quite a while now, too. Maybe they're setting it up for "out of nowhere" hostile takeover later? Dunno.
I think the Roy sub-plot is going to be picked up next episode though, since Slade and Oliver's lives have finally intersected.
Not too sure about the chin strap thingie. Makes him look like the Crimson Chin from Fairly Oddparents.
The perfect solution is to simply have Sara start training Laurel as a re-bonding experience between the two.
This would be cool, and would be an echo of something that happened in the tie-in digital comic during season 1 (which is supposed to be canon IIRC)--in a flashback, Sara is being bullied at school, and Quentin asks Laurel to look out for her. (Neither Sara nor Laurel are thrilled about this prospect--the on-and-off rival thing apparently went on before Ollie came into the picture--but Laurel agrees to because she feels responsible for her sister.) Quentin then gives them a little basic police self-defense lesson, and they spar a bit, and then later they fight off the bullies and have a bonding moment. It is made clear in their early relationship though that Laurel is the protector of Sara in their childhood(something they desperately need to bring into light into the show proper).
The only thing now is that Laurel still only has her self-defense training--albeit supplemented with classes--and Sara's spent several years at Nanda Parbat.
It would be cool to see them revisit this "bonding through sparring/fighting" idea, this time with Sara in the position of protector and responsible one, and insisting Laurel get additionally trained after all that's happened to her.
I'm almost finished re-watching season 1 on Netflix and rediscovered the potential that Laurel has had the entire time. On several occasions she demonstrated her toughness and fighting skills so she's really not that far off.
She got to kick a little butt early in season 2 but that's about it.
Season 1 Laurel was actually a well written character. I think the band wagon hating was mostly due to people's love of the idea of Olicity (which I am against) VS. something Laurel specifically did. Season 2 Laurel is different: they started making her into baggage and putting her in too much in opposition to both Arrow/Oliver. Her being apart of the prosecution team against Moria and going after Arrow were dumb moves by the writers. So if the writers can get their heads out of their bums Laurel could easily be a valuable part of Team Arrow by the end of the season.
She just needs to stop being other people's plot device and being her own character. It's clumsy this season but I think they're working on it.
So, exactly one episode after Laurel seems to be flying off the rails, she's pulling it together. (It feels longer, because of the Olympics break, obviously, and I kind of think that was a good time for a break, because, these two episodes back to back might have felt a little whiplash-y in the characterization.)
IDK, she was still clearly bitter and angry for the first part of the episode, and had her change of heart after her argument with Ollie... along with another few days passing. It didn't seem too off to me. While it was a little fast, I did see an actual arc there.
I do feel kind of like Ollie and Sara hooking up last episode (all of maybe ten hours ago in-universe, even if was last month for us viewers) was force-rushed just to give Laurel something to yell at them about this episode, but I'm willing to overlook that.
It was AWFULLY forced and the chemistry is off. They have good general chemistry but they don't feel like they're involved. Them hooking up at the end of Heir to the Demon made sense just as a physical/burning off steam kind of thing, but now saying that meant they decided to be in a relationship feels far more out of the middle of nowhere than Laurel's turnaround.
It boggles me on this show how some elements seem really carefully built up and planned and crafted and other elements just feel like they're chucked in at the last minute because "oh wait, we need x to serve the plot."
Gosh, that face. Laurel is looking more and more like the Joker, ever episode.
I saw a recent interview with Katie Cassidy and she looks a lot better, so hopefully we'll see Laurel (filmed several weeks ago) looking better soon too.
Yeah I would like at least a nod to those two sub-plots. The Queen Consolidated one has been conspicuously absent for quite a while now, too. Maybe they're setting it up for "out of nowhere" hostile takeover later? Dunno.
Yeah, the show's entirely forgotten about Isobel for the moment. I realize they may not want to get Summer Glau for a brief scene, but it would have been interesting to see her reaction when Moira decided to run for Mayor.
I am also wondering if the showrunners themselves forgot they put Isobel Rochev's name on the List. I thought that was actually going to be a thing that was going to come up at some point.
I think the Roy sub-plot is going to be picked up next episode though, since Slade and Oliver's lives have finally intersected.
Yeah. He needs to be properly introduced to Sara -- and maybe he can be explained to that she does indeed know Sin.
I'm actually kind of puzzled why they handled that scene with Sin in that way... I think everyone involved by now knows Sara was in town before she revealed herself to her family, and was hiding out from her ex. Simply explaining, "I ran into Sin in the Glades and she brought me hamburgers" would be neither a lie nor particularly suspicious. I mean, the zombie fetish line was cute, but it was odd they decided to pretend they'd never met.
Other things
I am really feeling for Thea. Oliver and Moira really must think she is a total idiot, the way they are treating her. I am actually hoping she finds out, seeks out Merlyn, and goes villain at this point just to spite them. Evil Speedy FTW.
I guess the Sara/Ollie relationship doesn't strike me as rushed, because it's a rekindling, not a new romance. He brought her along on the Gambit for some sexy-time, faced lots of good peril with her on the island, including her living over Shado. But maybe it's just me.
I think that his plan to lure in the Clock King was a chance to lay down a future plot device, probably for a season 3 arc. Ollie just really potentially screwed up. If Isobel bought the 800 shares of Queen Consolidated stock when they went up for sale, we could very well see a hostile takeover arc teased at the end of this season.
Arrow is vastly better than Smallville was, even at Smallville's best. The protagonist isn't a jerk, which was Smallville's biggest problem after the first season. Oliver doesn't have the same problems that Clark had, which was doing the same jerky things time and time again. (He was a huge jerk to Lex thanks to assumptions, then would apologize, then do it again ad nauseum.) Oliver learns and grows as a character, which is nice.
I feel like they need to figure a way to make Diggle more interesting. He's sort of stagnated in the second season.
The character I dislike most on the show is Sin. I felt that she adds absolutely nothing to the show. I realize I am in the minority on this. Since they introduced the link between her father and Sara, I may change my opinion. I do hope that Sara finds her way off the show sooner or later.
They need to bring Nyssa al-Ghul back. She was, hands down, the most believable and frightening villain that Arrow has shown except for Deathstroke.
Arrow is vastly better than Smallville was, even at Smallville's best. The protagonist isn't a jerk, which was Smallville's biggest problem after the first season. Oliver doesn't have the same problems that Clark had, which was doing the same jerky things time and time again. (He was a huge jerk to Lex thanks to assumptions, then would apologize, then do it again ad nauseum.) Oliver learns and grows as a character, which is nice.
Well, I think Ollie is a jerk -- but the difference is, he and other people know and acknowledge he's a jerk and he tries to change. Clark was a jerk but he was presented as being in the right and seldom changed or grew, at least in the seasons in which I watched that show.
I feel like they need to figure a way to make Diggle more interesting. He's sort of stagnated in the second season.
There's a chance for that in the upcoming Suicide Squad episode.
The character I dislike most on the show is Sin. I felt that she adds absolutely nothing to the show. I realize I am in the minority on this. Since they introduced the link between her father and Sara, I may change my opinion. I do hope that Sara finds her way off the show sooner or later.
I don't dislike Sin, and I think of what we've seen on her she has a fun personality -- but her narrative purpose has been very inconsistent. She was supposed to be a connection to Sara, but then sort of ended up with Roy, and she comes in and out so infrequently without explanation that sometimes her presence feels incongruous. What I like her being there for, however, is she is both a friend to Thea and Sara who need some people who are just friends -- not love interests or co-workers -- to help them develop. They just need to work with her more consistently, and explain her absence better when she's not around.
They need to bring Nyssa al-Ghul back. She was, hands down, the most believable and frightening villain that Arrow has shown except for Deathstroke.
Nyssa Raatko was indeed awesome and I do believe we have not seen the last of her.
Yeah, the show's entirely forgotten about Isobel for the moment. I realize they may not want to get Summer Glau for a brief scene, but it would have been interesting to see her reaction when Moira decided to run for Mayor.
I am also wondering if the showrunners themselves forgot they put Isobel Rochev's name on the List. I thought that was actually going to be a thing that was going to come up at some point.
Isobel will definitely be back, "they" have said so when running down the list of upcoming episodes/villains (I think I've put in a link somewhere upthread).
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About Sin. It's awfully odd that another guy from Stirling City happens to be flying a plane above a mysterious island in the South Pacific. It just kinda busted my suspension for a minute.
It didn't mine, mostly because Starling is supposed to be a bigass city I think. Isn't it like DC's version of Chicago or something?
I dunno.
Detective Quentin "Dresden" Lance may be throwing me off a bit.
I wasn't being hard on him, it's just that he's the guy who played Harry Dresden in the short lived Dresden Files TV series, and that takes place in Chicago.
Plus he sounds Chicagoan.
I pictured it a DC version of Los Angeles. I thought that Metropolis was Chicago and Gotham was New York (obviously).
I mean briefly broke it. I give a show that does stuff so well a lot of leeway. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a reason for the connection.
I thought Gotham was Pittsburg and Metropolis was NYCish.
Starling City is in Washington State. A recent episode showed a letter addressed to Starling with a WA zip code.
IIRC, Central City, where Barry Allen and Dinah Drake Lance live (in the show) is in the Midwest (comics have placed it alternately in Ohio, Illinois, and Missouri.
Metropolis is more or less Chicago.
Gotham is sort of NYC but at one point NYC also existed in the DCU and Gotham was nearby in NJ, more or less.
LA I believe is more or less represented in the comics DCU by Coast City, where Hal Jordan lives.
So, Gotham is on the east coast...didn't know. Never understood DCs obsession with never using real cities.
They do use real cities. Chicago, New York and every other real world city exists along side Metropolis and Gotham. The main difference is DC Earth is bigger than Marvel Earth. But Marvel has its own share of made up places like Madripoor, Wakanda and Latveria (to name just a few). The problem with Marvel is almost every hero is based either in Los Angeles or New York, so at least DC spreads their heroes out and in places where the writers can have more creative freedom. I mean, how many times can you have a battle on top of the Statue of Liberty without it becoming old hat?
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Metropolis is every city, it seems. It's on the ocean, and has lots of qualities that suggest New York City. It's also 'an hour and a half from Smallville' in Kansas (although people like Lois or Lex can make the drive in 15 minutes or less)...
And yeah, for such a short run as Harry Dresden, I do sometimes wonder why he isn't using a magic hockey stick to blast people as Detective Lance. :)
To me, the ridiculousness of the scene was that what appeared to be a SWAT team reacted--within a ridiculously short time --to a security guard's emergency call that their cameras weren't working at the local city archives, and that they spotted someone who may or may not have been the vigilante (given they only glimpsed him for a second). A team of heavily armed and armored officers charged to engage a single person invading a file room, and, though no hostile action had been taken at them that I can recall, began spraying burst fire--through a shelf-crowded room full of paper--at one the intruder with little warning.
I think that the SWAT team's reaction was to the presence of Arrow rather than to the theft of files. The police want "the vigilante", bad. And know that he is very hard to handle.
Thanks DQ. Only weird part of that in arrow is the mention that Barry Allen made of his hour or 2 train ride from Starling City to Central City. Also how easy it is for Dina Lance to come back and forth for just a dinner.
Although, frankly, I just kinda ignore any real time analogs. Plus I think things like travel distances being what they need to be for plot reasons is one of the reasons they avoid real city names.
Gotham is another nickname for New York. Like the Big Apple.
Thanks DQ. Only weird part of that in arrow is the mention that Barry Allen made of his hour or 2 train ride from Starling City to Central City. Also how easy it is for Dina Lance to come back and forth for just a dinner.
I'm sure they're playing it all fast and loose. I do know someone screencapped some envelopes which put SC in WA. I agree with you that verything else is probably all ultimately for the convenience of plot.
That said, Dinah I believe has not been commuting between cities--she's been coming to SC and staying for a few days, then returning.
The important thing based on the conversation prior is Starling is on the West Coast, and thus would sail or fly out over the Pacific.
Although, frankly, I just kinda ignore any real time analogs. Plus I think things like travel distances being what they need to be for plot reasons is one of the reasons they avoid real city names.
I think they also avoid real city names to avoid real world politics and events.
Gotham is another nickname for New York. Like the Big Apple.
Yep. If you go to New York you will find a number of businesses actually called "Gotham Pizza" or "Gotham Delivery" or "Gotham Wallpaper" or what have you.
So, Gotham is on the east coast...didn't know. Never understood DCs obsession with never using real cities.They do use real cities. Chicago, New York and every other real world city exists along side Metropolis and Gotham. The main difference is DC Earth is bigger than Marvel Earth. But Marvel has its own share of made up places like Madripoor, Wakanda and Latveria (to name just a few). The problem with Marvel is almost every hero is based either in Los Angeles or New York, so at least DC spreads their heroes out and in places where the writers can have more creative freedom. I mean, how many times can you have a battle on top of the Statue of Liberty without it becoming old hat?
Except of course when the two Earths were drawn as the exact same size during the JLA/Avengers crossover.[/nerdage]
Except of course when the two Earths were drawn as the exact same size during the JLA/Avengers crossover.[/nerdage]So, Gotham is on the east coast...didn't know. Never understood DCs obsession with never using real cities.They do use real cities. Chicago, New York and every other real world city exists along side Metropolis and Gotham. The main difference is DC Earth is bigger than Marvel Earth. But Marvel has its own share of made up places like Madripoor, Wakanda and Latveria (to name just a few). The problem with Marvel is almost every hero is based either in Los Angeles or New York, so at least DC spreads their heroes out and in places where the writers can have more creative freedom. I mean, how many times can you have a battle on top of the Statue of Liberty without it becoming old hat?
http://marvel.wikia.com/DC_Universe
Well if wikia says so ...
Like I said, they were drawn the same size, people counted it to the pixel back when JLA/Avengers came out.
Well if wikia says so ...
Like I said, they were drawn the same size, people counted it to the pixel back when JLA/Avengers came out.
Try to READ the comics. They're more than pretty pictures.
Sorry, I didn't realize this was serious business.
Star City in the comics was on the west coast, northern California between San Francisco and Oregon. Gotham is officially in New Jersey, and Metroplois in in Maryland.
Maryland?? Never heard that one. Where did you get that? DC Wikia says it's currently set in New York (in or near Kansas on Smallville).
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Star City in the comics was on the west coast, northern California between San Francisco and Oregon. Gotham is officially in New Jersey, and Metroplois in in Maryland.Maryland?? Never heard that one. Where did you get that? DC Wikia says it's currently set in New York (in or near Kansas on Smallville).
There was a big DC map of North America. This was pre-New 52 though.
http://ifanboy.com/articles/the-secret-geography-of-the-dc-universe-a-reall y-big-map/
That map puts it in Delaware. The article says its from a 1980s DCU RPG book.
ANYWAY.... so how about that Arrow? All of Team Arrow working to fight Slade next week apparently...
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Geekgasm overload!
Arrow: Full Circle 3 minute extended trailer.
Geekgasm overload!
Arrow: Full Circle 3 minute extended trailer.
That was sweet.
For those Facebook folks, Stephen Amell runs his own page, instead of having a publicist do it. It's pretty cool, and I enjoy the obvious pride he takes in the show.