Arrow


Television

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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Mazra, can you spoiler your post please?

Spoiler:

Spiral Ninja wrote:


spot that the person in skin-tight black leather is female? He has spent too much time on that island!

The rider looked male to me before the reveal, and I got the sense the jacket was padded especially at the shoulders so she'd be confused for a male, or that it would at least be hard to discern her gender.

Mazra wrote:


John Barrowman born 1967

Colin Donnell born 1982

So John would have been 15. That is starting early. Add the fact that John Barrowman doesn't look his age makes it worse. My wife and I had similar comments.

I think Colin Donnell is supposed to be playing a character younger than he is (25 or so). That puts the man playing his dad being in his early 20s when he was born. Unusual this day and age sometimes, but not implausible.

And John Barrowman looks all of his 45 to me, personally. A healthy and handsome 45, but 45. I could buy a character he played is "in his late 40s".

The problem with TV is people often cast older people to play younger characters -- for labor laws, teens are usually cast to be played by people in their early 20s. In turn, you have to cast characters who are supposed to be in their actual 20s to be played by people in their late 20s or 30s. And so on and so on. So we are told this 40 year old character is 40, when they are actually played by a 48 year old or 50 year old. We start thinking from this exposure that 40 looks like 50 and 16 looks like 20. Then when you cast someone actually of their age to play a character, they suddenly look "too young" to be that age.

Other Stuff
So excited to see Helena Bertinelli. Like many I knew Helena Wayne first, but once I read Helena Bertinelli, I loved her so much more, she was so much more unique and interesting. I have every issue from her original 1989 monthly. I was SO SAD when they retconned Bertinelli out of existence and brought back Wayne (but then almost everything in the New 52 either angers or saddens me). So it delighted me to see Helena Bertinelli and on TV no less!

The actress seemed sadly a bit green -- really overacting a bit in certain scenes, but the dialogue didn't help either. "You're the same, you and I." Really? Are they just copy pasting from other superhero scripts? But I have hope she'll grow into it. She and Amell have good chemistry. I actually think a universe where a Huntress is influenced by Green Arrow makes a lot of sense. Interesting that she's avenging a fiance rather than her own family, but I like that take. And I LOVED that her fiance's last name was Staton (Bertinelli's creators were Joe Staton and Joey Cavalieri). Nice shout out. :)

Looking forward to next episode.

Grand Lodge

DeathQuaker wrote:

Mazra, can you spoiler your post please?

Ooops! Sorry.


Mazra wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

I agree! Ollie was on that island way too long. :)

Spoiler:
Well John Barrowman is Really 700 Years Old so it's okay that he doesn't look his age.
Grand Lodge

Captain Jack was a great character. I wonder if we will ever see him again. (That is not a spoiler DeathQuaker. ;) )


I dunno. I'm guessing they canceled Torchwood: Miracle Day?

I know there was supposed to be a second season but it's been like a year and a half now.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Rynjin wrote:

I dunno. I'm guessing they canceled Torchwood: Miracle Day?

I know there was supposed to be a second season but it's been like a year and a half now.

I don't think there were any plans for a second season, or if there were, there's no indication of them now. It did well ratings wise in Britain but wasn't received well critically. I may be wrong of course, but I think Torchwood's done for now. (IM very personal O, thank goodness.)

Thank goodness John Barrowman's got work playing what seems to be a very interesting character on Arrow. He's an excellent actor and I'm glad to see him playing a very different kind of character.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Agreed on John Barrowman, I've enjoyed his work on other projects.

And I so agree on Huntress. (and hte new 52) Long live Wally, Donna, Stephanie, Cassandra and Helena!

Re: Torchwood.

Spoiler:
I was hoping (prior to miracle day) that we'd see a Torchwood that was humming along fine without Jack. Gwen in charge, Andy working as a police liason. Maybe Martha as the Unit Liason. Rhys happy being the stay-at-home-dad. Jack comes back and Torchwood doesn't need him. Well except that after the 456, they'd swung back to Queen Elizabeth's original mission. So Jack (and maybe John Heart) become Torchwood's foes John trying to stay alive (and at the same time, validating their mission) and Jack trying to be Gwen's consicence. This would be a B plot, with the A plot being more self contained episodic adventures.

Grand Lodge

I would just like to see Captain Jack in an episode or two with Matt Smith. :)


Was just able to watch this week's episode last night (I luvs me some DVR mmhmm).

My one thought was:

Spoiler:
No, seriously, what IS the difference between what he does and Miss Thang does? I could understand if this was mainstream DC and he had that whole "No killing 'kay?" thing going on, but he's racked up a bit of a bodycount so far in the series and that's really the only difference they would've had.

Edited because [./quote] is not how you end a spoiler tag HUH DURRRR.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Spoiler:
There really isn't, I don't think -- as was her point. The thing is, she's someone he likes, and he doesn't like seeing her as a killer, hence the lecture. But he's not being rational about it at all.


Spoiler:
Maybe its easier for him to see it as wrong in someone else and that will cause him to look at his own actions more.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Tangible Delusions wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
I hope that's where they're going with it. I have some worries as some of the writers have hinted about the Huntress being something along the lines of "a wild one that can't be tamed" but hopefully that means there's a point where she either crosses a line or won't go his way on some other matter, and it reinforces that he himself is making life/death judgments that are not as justified as he thinks they are.

I also hope they don't just write off the Huntress as pointlessly reckless. At her best in the comics, at the hands of writers who truly understood her, she was so much more than that.

And I'm not going to spoiler this part as it concerns officially published news, and is otherwise entirely my speculation, but...

Now, I know this is Green Arrow and not another series... but...

So. We got Dinah Laurel Lance.

We got Helena Bertinelli.

We CAN'T have Babs Gordon because she's too Batman to be invited into the Arrowverse, but we do have Felicity Smoak who is very very much shaping up to be an Oracle expy.

And now... we have news that an upcoming villain will be Ted Gaynor. (Keep with me for a minute.) Ted Gaynor in the comics was a member of the Blackhawks, who turned traitor. Press reports that Ted Gaynor in Arrow will be a member of something along the lines of the "Blackhawk Securities Group" (not exact terms). Now, this means, that in the Arrowverse, there are a group of Blackhawks, and presumably not all of them are villainous like Ted (at least not without shark intervention)... perhaps a certain lady?

The show has an opportunity (probably not till way down the road though) to do Birds of Prey way better than the actual BOP TV show ever did. (Not to mention, the writers on Arrow ARE actually capable of writing their way out of a paper bag, unlike Laeta Kalogiridis.)


The Blackhawks were the multi-nationality Nazi fighting pilots group?

Never read anything about them but I think that was them in the Justice League TV series.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Yes, that was them. I don't know what they'll be in Arrow. Possibly something more like the mercenary team in the new 52.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

"You guys are forgetting something. I'm the one with the grenade launcher."

Awesome.


Yusss. The new "mid-season" (that's a trend I dislike greatly =/) is shaping up to be MUCH better than the first half. Can't really describe it but it seems like the show has much fewer scenes that drag or make me cringe because some side character is a terrible actor or they just gave Ollie terrible dialogue (I don't mind cheesy though, Burned had some of my favorite lines) or whatever. I like it.

Also, this last episode was good. I actually had to look up who the villain was though because I could not remember Ted Gaynor.

And what the hell is up with bringing Ben Browder in and then killing him off lately in the first episode he shows up? Did he piss off somebody or something? Is it a new trend in TV?

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Arrow is coming along well, I agree. I hope it stays strong.

It was more the reference to the Blackhawks than that one guy, I think. Also, Ted Gaynor's friend who got shot was named Blake, I think. I am DESPERATELY hoping he has a sister. :)

On an entirely different note, for future episodes, spoilers, sweetie:

Spoiler:

Alex Kingston will be playing Dinah Drake Lance (or whatever the heck they name her). This will be very interesting. :)

Grand Lodge

spoiler:
Wow! Another Dr. Who alum. Great choice for Laurel's mom. It will be interesting to see if there is any chemistry between Alex Kingston and Paul Blackthorne(Detective Lance).

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Last week's episode was amazing.

Last night's was a bit of a let down after that--to an extent. Oliver is being way too forgiving, and there was a lot of stuff in the flashback that didn't make sense (why would Slade tell Oliver his plan?).

On the upside, Felicity's increased involvement is AWESOME.

Also--did Yao Fei call his daughter Shado?

Because if so, holy...

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

DeathQuaker wrote:

Last week's episode was amazing.

Last night's was a bit of a let down after that--to an extent. Oliver is being way too forgiving, and there was a lot of stuff in the flashback that didn't make sense (why would Slade tell Oliver his plan?).

On the upside, Felicity's increased involvement is AWESOME.

Also--did Yao Fei call his daughter Shado?

Because if so, holy...

Felicity's been promoted to regular for series 2.

And I get the feeling there are layers and layers involved with anything involving Slade Wilson (I hope so)

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Yes, it's fantastic (also fantastic that the series has already been renewed).

I hope you're right! It's a good point.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

[Tangent]I've a soft spot for Slade Wilson/Deathstroke. He's a villian, but he's one with a history, and a code of honor (and a creepy relationship with a 14 year old, but I'll ignore that for the moment). I'd like to see him as an 'anti-Captain America' Same super soldier background, same plotting skills etc, but not being a hero.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Matthew Morris wrote:
[Tangent]I've a soft spot for Slade Wilson/Deathstroke. He's a villian, but he's one with a history, and a code of honor (and a creepy relationship with a 14 year old, but I'll ignore that for the moment). I'd like to see him as an 'anti-Captain America' Same super soldier background, same plotting skills etc, but not being a hero.

[tangent 1]What's intriguing about that, is that Slade never once admitted to having a relationship with Tara, and when she flung that 'we were lovers' comment out in combat, he seemed surprised by it and said she was crazy. I can certainly see that being the sort of thing a man would lie about, but it's entirely possible that she was totally making that up, just to throw him.[/tangent 1]

[tangent 2]My issue with comic-book Slade is the same with most other comic-book 'assassins.' The nature of comics being what they are, most of the 'deadliest X in the world' never actually get to kill anyone, or, at least, never get to kill anyone significant, on-screen. Oh sure, back before we met him, he may have killed lots of folk, but since he showed up on the comic book page, he's got a dismal success rate. Same for Arcade, who charges a cool million bucks to fail, fail, fail and fail again to kill any of the superheroes he's targetted, or the 'Fatal Five' or the 'League of Super-Assassins' or various other stone killers who turn out to be all hat and no cat.

When a third-rate schmuck like Doctor Light has killed more superheroes than you have, perhaps it's time to hang up your cowl and get into real estate.[/tangent 2]

Gosh, the body count has cropped back up recently. 24 guards in a single episode? Yikes. Olly's slipping off the wagon!


Set wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
[Tangent]I've a soft spot for Slade Wilson/Deathstroke. He's a villian, but he's one with a history, and a code of honor (and a creepy relationship with a 14 year old, but I'll ignore that for the moment). I'd like to see him as an 'anti-Captain America' Same super soldier background, same plotting skills etc, but not being a hero.
[tangent 1]What's intriguing about that, is that Slade never once admitted to having a relationship with Tara, and when she flung that 'we were lovers' comment out in combat, he seemed surprised by it and said she was crazy. I can certainly see that being the sort of thing a man would lie about, but it's entirely possible that she was totally making that up, just to throw him.[/tangent 1]

He doesn't deny it and she was crazy. He calls her "honey" right after that comment. They're shown together in various states of undress, dressing robes usually. They call each other "m'dear" and "honey". When Tara snaps she reacts like a betrayed lover. "thought he loved me".

It's never shown or stated explicitly, partly because it was the early '80s, but it was definitely heavily implied. There's probably enough wiggle room you could retcon out of actual sex, but it was definitely "a creepy relationship with a 14 year old" (Or probably a 15 year old. I've seen conflicting ages.)

A quote from George Perez found on Wikipedia

Quote:
I wanted her to be cute but not beautiful. She looked like a young girl. I gave her a substantial overbite, her eyes were wide, her body was slim, she wasn't particularly busty. I wanted her to look almost elfin, so that when you see her for the first time wearing full-make up and dressed in a provocative outfit where you know she's just been in bed with Deathstroke that it does jab you a bit. "Whoa, good God! This little girl is a slut!"

Grand Lodge

This has been a quiet thread, considering this is one of the best shows on TV.

Awesome stuff over the last few weeks.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Yeah, I haven't posted much because there hasn't been a lot of conversation, but I am continuing to love the hell out of this for the most part. It's only gotten better. My only major disappointment is the way they ended up characterizing Helena Bertinelli, as of many episodes ago. I am a huge fan of the comic book version, and while crappy writers tended to make her a one-note psycho, she was actually a very cool character with a lot of depth in the right hands (anything with her name actually in the title, like the couple Huntress miniseries in the 90s and early 00s, or in Gail Simone's run of Birds of Prey. Or Chuck Dixon's for that matter, he wrote Helena well). I am really sad that the TV series went with the badly written one-note psycho version, especially when the writers prove they can handle complex and interesting character development well.

The current buildup to the finale is A-MA-ZING however. I so very love the villainy, so very love where Oliver is going, love how Team Arrow is shaping up. And oh my god I am so loving John Barrowman as Malcolm Merlyn.

I'm getting a little bored with Island flashbacks though. I'm much more interested in the present day story. I was hoping they'd kind of finish with the flashbacks to fill in the backstory and then be done, but apparently, no, according to an interview with the producers (sorry can't remember where), they're hoping for a five season run, and every season will advance, slowly, the five year island plot in addition to whatever happens in the present day. God. But it's not like the flashbacks are terrible, I just care a lot more about the Queens and the Lances and the Merlyns than I do about Deathstroke and Shado. At the same time I'll trust they're going good places, so we'll see.

The latest episode was pretty awesome, as was last week's. It really is a "how is our hero going to get out of this now!?!" thing without being hokey.

For more specifics, going to spoilers; I am spoiler tagging BECAUSE SPOILERS:

Spoiler:

The ending kind of intrigued me. "Oh no," are not the words I expected to come out of Malcolm's mouth when he discovered Ollie's identity, and it's almost kind of funny. It makes sense, of course, but it just wasn't what I expected.

I assume his dismay is in part that

a) Obviously, Oliver did not buy that it was the Vigilante who had beat him up and interrogated Moira, because Oliver is the Vigilante, so he knows that was probably a set up (which was brilliant otherwise, it took me awhile to figure out they were trying to throw Oliver off Moira's scent).

and

b) He (feels he) is going to have to kill his son's best friend

and

c) He has to wonder if Moira knew Oliver was the Vigilante all along or otherwise if he can maintain Moira's loyalty if he ends up killing Oliver.

As a note this last is of course also going to put Moira in some serious danger, because either way he will not feel he can trust Moira.

Love Barrowman as Merlyn so much, his villainy is amazing. I've heard a lot of people speculate that Malcolm will be killed by Ollie, and that will make Tommy go through a Osborne-like transformation.

I'm starting to wonder (mind also from reading from speculation on the net) though if it's Tommy who'll be killed (if anyone is), just further cementing Malcolm's villainy. Tommy's death would have huge impact and would actually be a great way of serving his purpose. On the other hand, that's wishful thinking on my part because I find Tommy rather blah and I don't want Barrowman to leave the show. Maybe they'll both live though, too. I can live with that.


I've been completely surprised by how much I like this show. It isn't perfect by any means - I was similarly disappointed that Huntress went so quickly from a slightly grimmer vigilante to a cop-killing psycho. Actually, while I do love seeing references to the comics, I think the shows greatest strength is in its more original characters, or more original interpretations of characters, such as with Diggle, Felicity, or the Queen family.

Last nights episode certainly set the stakes high, and I'm eager to see what comes next!

My big worries are:

Spoiler:

-I'm not a fan of the Ollie/Laurel/Tommy love triangle. I mean, I like the characters themselves, and thought they were actually doing a good job with having Tommy and Laurel get involved in a mature relationship, rather than just dive down the cliche of a love triangle / betrayal / etc. And then they did just that, which largely involved every single one of them acting irrationally, and an especially contrived moment in which Tommy wanders up to Laurel's apartment at precisely the right moment to see the two of them wandering past a window while making out. The series has done such a good job of defying convention and expectations about so many of the usual tropes, so this was quite the disappointment.

-It also leaves me worried about what they have planned for Tommy. I'm afraid that we're going to end up seeing Ollie kill Malcolm, and that Tommy will just happen to witness it, and end up abruptly going evil and taking up his father's place. It is the trope that fits with the situation they've set up (feeling betrayed by his best friends, losing a father, etc) - and yet, it would feel so very out of character for him, and so immature as a plot development, so I really hope they have something else creative planned. If this ends with Malcolm exposed and having to flee, for example - setting him up as a possible recurring villain - I think that would offer a lot more promise to the series in the long run.

Sovereign Court

I really hope this becomes avaimlable in retarded Europe soon.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Matthew Koelbl wrote:
I've been completely surprised by how much I like this show. It isn't perfect by any means - I was similarly disappointed that Huntress went so quickly from a slightly grimmer vigilante to a cop-killing psycho. Actually, while I do love seeing references to the comics, I think the shows greatest strength is in its more original characters, or more original interpretations of characters, such as with Diggle, Felicity, or the Queen family.

Accepting that this is a darkier and grittier universe with no (known) superpowers in it, and is fully "Elseworlds," I like the takes on most of the characters, original, obscure, or fairly well known. Huntress is one exception because where with everyone else they've managed to make/keep everyone pretty multifaceted and well-developed, they took a character who was very complex and multifaceted in her original form and turned her into an utterly two dimensional caricature. That they hired a girl who can't act her way out of a wet paper bag doesn't help. It just seems counterintuitive and counterproductive considering how hard they worked on all the other characters.

But we're not going to see Huntress again this season and who knows? If they do bring her back next year maybe they'll have done something better with her. Including possibly recast her, even though I am not generally a fan of recastings.

Spoiler:

Quote:


-I'm not a fan of the Ollie/Laurel/Tommy love triangle. I mean, I like the characters themselves, and thought they were actually doing a good job with having Tommy and Laurel get involved in a mature relationship, rather than just dive down the cliche of a love triangle / betrayal / etc. And then they did just that, which largely involved every single one of them acting irrationally, and an especially contrived moment in which Tommy wanders up to Laurel's apartment at precisely the right moment to see the two of them wandering past a window while making out. The series has done such a good job of defying convention and expectations about so many of the usual tropes, so this was quite the disappointment.

I am glad that the triangle is ending. I also recall yawping for joy when Tommy and Laurel broke up because they have all the chemistry of dirt and water. I DO think Laurel and Ollie suddenly jumping in bed, though, was a bit odd and ooc. Especially since it set up Ollie as "I am going to save the city, I am grim and determined and we are going to stop Malcom and my mom! But first! I am going to go f~++ my ex-girlfriend." That just seemed a bit off.

The moment of Tommy seeing them was a little contrived, but I can buy that he might have decided to go talk to her after work. While I don't think in their earlier scene, Oliver was trying to encourage Tommy to get back together with Laurel--quite the opposite--Oliver's mentioning that Laurel had chosen to be with Tommy and Tommy was a moron for dumping her might have inspired Tommy to want to go talk to her that night. So I can see why that was, even if the timing was a tad too coincidental.

Quote:


-It also leaves me worried about what they have planned for Tommy. I'm afraid that we're going to end up seeing Ollie kill Malcolm, and that Tommy will just happen to witness it, and end up abruptly going evil and taking up his father's place. It is the trope that fits with the situation they've set up (feeling betrayed by his best friends, losing a father, etc) - and yet, it would feel so very out of character for him, and so immature as a plot development, so I really hope they have something else creative planned. If this ends with Malcolm exposed and having to flee, for example - setting him up as a possible recurring villain - I think that would offer a lot more promise to the series in the long run.

Yeah, a lot of people are seeing Tommy and Malcolm in a Hobgoblin/Green Goblin scenario. And that seems to be what they're setting up. But they are good at twists, so I hope that is exactly not what they're setting up. I am definitely with you on keeping Malcolm as a recurring villain.

Grand Lodge

spoiler:
I don't get that Oliver goes to Tommy in one scene, and tells him Laurel chose you; and the next Oliver is over at Laurel's apartment getting hot and bothered in front of an open window for all the world to see. I know love is blind; but in this case it is just plain stupid. Everything else about the story was great. This disturbed me.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mazra wrote:

This has been a quiet thread, considering this is one of the best shows on TV.

I wouldn't go quite that far. There are far better shows on and on hiatus at the moment (Hannibal, Game of Thrones, Justified, The Walking Dead, Vikings, Red Widow, etc.). Even Grimm and Supernatural are better.

However, Arrow is quite fun. It shouldn't work, especially because of all the soapy bits, but it does.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Mazra--

Spoiler:

I don't get that Oliver goes to Tommy in one scene, and tells him Laurel chose you; and the next Oliver is over at Laurel's apartment getting hot and bothered in front of an open window for all the world to see. I know love is blind; but in this case it is just plain stupid. Everything else about the story was great. This disturbed me.

Looking at the whole context of the conversation between Oliver and Tommy, what Oliver said basically was:

"Look, you have lots of legit reasons to hate me, but any issues about you, me, and Laurel are not among them. You are treating her like a possession, but she chooses her partners. When she had the opportunity, she chose you--BUT THEN YOU LOST HER, because you got afraid and dumped her, and you are a moron. That is not my fault. So anything that happens between me and Laurel -- you had your chance and blew it all by yourself, so don't get pissy with me about anything that happens."

Oliver is treating Tommy and Laurel as a thing of the past, he is just is telling Tommy not to blame him for Tommy's choice to break up with Laurel. He is NOT encouraging Tommy to get back with Laurel, he's just pointed out that it is Tommy's own fault he lost her, not Oliver's.

Clearing the air that he had nothing to do with Tommy and Laurel breaking up, Oliver then feels free to pursue Laurel.

But with my earlier statement, I can see why Tommy would decide he should talk to Laurel after Oliver's speech, because he realizes Oliver was right on all counts and then feels there's unfinished business. But that's Tommy extrapolating, not Oliver encouraging him to do it. Oliver as best as I can tell was just clearing the air between them, not encouraging Tommy to do anything.

I do think Ollie and Laurel jumping all the way into bed was way too fast.

Grand Lodge

Fabius Maximus wrote:
Mazra wrote:

This has been a quiet thread, considering this is one of the best shows on TV.

I wouldn't go quite that far. There are far better shows on and on hiatus at the moment (Hannibal, Game of Thrones, Justified, The Walking Dead, Vikings, Red Widow, etc.). Even Grimm and Supernatural are better.

However, Arrow is quite fun. It shouldn't work, especially because of all the soapy bits, but it does.

There is an old saying about "different strokes." I don't have HBO, so I can't comment on Game of Thrones. The few episodes i have managed to catch in a hotel were good, but the pacing was slow. Of course, it could have been those episodes. But I am not a fan at all of The Walking Dead, and I totally disagree that Grimm and Supernatural are better. Vikings is good, but again I enjoy Arrow more. The others haven't really grabbed my attention either. So clearly "your mileage varied." Isn't it great we live in a world full of diversity?

Grand Lodge

DeathQuaker--

I need to watch the episode again. You may be right, but I did see it differently.

spoiler:
I found Oliver telling Tommy, "that she chose you", a couple of scenes before Oliver and Laurel are getting it on, simply odd. Maybe I am just too old fashioned.


DeathQuaker wrote:

Mazra--

** spoiler omitted **

At least for Ollie, times of great danger/stress also kick up the sex drive a lot...

Dark Archive

I'm enjoying Arrow. One of the cool things about movie/TV presentations of superhero / comicbook fare is that they get to invent new characters (like Lionel Luthor or Chloe Sullivan, in Smallville, or Ollie's family in Arrow) that fill in some beats that aren't as necessary for a comic book portrayal.

I do think that the Ollie / Laurel hookup was premature, and was indeed meant to be premature, since it was entirely built on a misperception from Oliver that it was now 'okay' to date Laurel, since his 'mission' was just about to end and he could hang up the hood.

Being a serialized story, barring the show getting cancelled, we viewers know that Oliver is dead wrong about his mission being 'over,' revealing the flaw in his premise...

I'm loving the name-drops, to Bludhaven and Ferris Air and other DCU staples. Without info-dumping a bunch of DC lore, they are leaving lots of Easter eggs around for the fans to pick up on.

Also cute how they foreshadowed the (potential) use of red arrows by Roy Harper in the conversation between him and Thea about the different archers using different colored arrows.

Then again, with Deathstroke and Count Vertigo, they've not hesitated to throw in some curves. It might be a similar 'curve' to have Roy Harper's shocking death be the impetus for Thea to become Speedy/Red Arrow, instead, and further catch the DCU fans off balance, since it's just a foregone conclusion for us that Roy will go on to become Arsenal/Red Arrow...


DeathQuaker wrote:


I'm getting a little bored with Island flashbacks though. I'm much more interested in the present day story. I was hoping they'd kind of finish with the flashbacks to fill in the backstory and then be done, but apparently, no, according to an interview with the producers (sorry can't remember where), they're hoping for a five season run, and every season will advance, slowly, the five year island plot in addition to whatever happens in the present day. God. But it's not like the flashbacks are terrible, I just care a lot more about the Queens and the Lances and the Merlyns than I do about Deathstroke and Shado. At the same time I'll trust they're going good places, so we'll see.

I'm with you, but for slightly different reasons.

The island shouldn't be it's own story line, it should be used as a way of explaining how Oliver changed and to highlight things going on in his life during the regular story line.

Also, I'm not a fan of the actor's portrayal of younger Oliver. He's over the top trying to make it different, whiny and privileged. The writing for it isn't bad, so I'd put the blame on the director/actor for those scenes. He'd be fine if he toned it down slightly.

This is probably my favorite new show of the year though.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

HOLY CRAP. That was amazing.

More thoughts later.


DeathQuaker wrote:

HOLY CRAP. That was amazing.

More thoughts later.

What what? :p

I think I need to start watching this show again. I can't remember why I stopped.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

The Season Finale on last night was excellent, in my personal opinion of course. While the season overall had its rough patches, the last several episodes have been each better than the last. I'd definitely suggest catching up. You should be able to see the last few episodes at least on the CW website.

What I am especially enjoying is seeing how everyone's heroic journeys is coming together, Ollie's but also his friends and family as well.

Serious spoilers follow.

Spoiler:

I mean really, what I realize I've loved about the finale is everyone but Malcolm finished in this story doing something heroic--and of course, Malcolm saw himself as a hero, however twisted. Maybe even if it was the first heroic thing they've done. The episode's title of "Sacrifice" was apt--everyone did or was willing to sacrifice themselves in some way to help. And everyone had a moment of saving somebody or at least doing their damndest to try.

Ollie -- willing to be killed by Malcolm to try to stop him, as he knew Malcolm was likely to beat him one on one.

Diggle -- willing to go up against Malcolm with Ollie, also helped rescue Ollie at the beginning (even if Ollie had halfway rescued himself).

Moira -- Understanding finally all that was at stake, she reveals the Undertaking and places herself available for arrest (I am assuming the police were there so fast was because she called them along with the press).

Thea -- Knowing exactly what was going on in the Glades, goes to be sure Roy is alright. While not quite as huge on a grand scheme, you have to bear in mind how self-centered and selfish she's been--Thea has grown up a lot and has gone from typical CW teen brat to a real human character who's development I am interested in watching. Deciding to go into the ghetto to rescue her boyfriend for her is a pretty big step. She also does actually rescue him, too. :)

Roy -- Trying to emulate his (idea of his) hero, see Thea to safety but also help the people on the crashed bus.

Felicity - Holy s@*#, Felicity. Staying right in the Glades to the end, determined to get the Markov device deactivated. She was willing to let Verdant fall on top of her in order to stop the Undertaking. She also kept cool and kept Lance focused. I felt so sad for her at the revelation at the existence of the second device, but her and Lance's work still mimimized the damage tremendously.

Lance - His taking the side of the vigilantes, effectively -- holy cow. His speech about the point of the law -- and what point was it if people couldn't be saved -- very good, and still fitting with his still ultimately very Lawful Good persona. I also liked that his superior was clear on his choice--suspension or arrest sucks, but there was the undertone there of "choose suspension, so you can go follow your conscience." And his phone call to Laurel when he thought he was going to die was heartbreaking.

Tommy - Oh Tommy. I didn't like you very much but you were as good a boy as a piece of vanilla cardboard can be, and you had some very nice growth toward the end. While I am delighted you will not be around to continue your extremely bland and chemistryless relationship with Laurel and your circular relationship with Oliver, you became so very brave and died a hero.

Laurel - With everyone else so busy, she didn't have much to do, but I liked that the whole reason she got trapped was essentially as the captain going down with the ship--well she was trying to leave, but she made sure everyone got out safely first. Apart from my shouting "get under a table or doorway you live in California for god sakes you should know this" which she refused to listen to, she was still being brave (and in fairness she might have been buried anyway). Foolish, maybe, but brave. I have to know how damn important those files were though that she needed to grab them before she left. Were they just plot fodder or is there something she specifically trying to save that we might learn of next season?

I am disappointed that she didn't learn of Ollie's identity though. I think that's something that needs to happen. I actually hope in Season 2 or 3 he loses the secret identity... it becomes something hard to maintain after awhile.

I probably have more rambling thoughts but it is halfway through my lunch break and I have no food so I should fix that.

Is it September yet?


Fabius Maximus wrote:
Mazra wrote:

This has been a quiet thread, considering this is one of the best shows on TV.

I wouldn't go quite that far. There are far better shows on and on hiatus at the moment (Hannibal, Game of Thrones, Justified, The Walking Dead, Vikings, Red Widow, etc.). Even Grimm and Supernatural are better.

However, Arrow is quite fun. It shouldn't work, especially because of all the soapy bits, but it does.

Yeah, that's exactly how I see Arrow at this point in the season after watching it all. It's good, but there are many more much better shows.

The "CW moments"

Spoiler:
(e.g. the aforementioned "Tommy seeing them")
brutally harm the show, but the Green Arrow sequences and general character motivations certainly work towards making up for that other nonsense.

And name-dropping is always a win in my book.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I think it's about managing your expectations too. This show balances dark adventure with melodrama fairly well, but especially as it is a CW show, I know to expect melodrama. Even, occasionally, outright camp. I'm fine with that, but I know that it's going to be part of the package. Also, I'm a big girl enough to admit I enjoy melodrama and camp. I also enjoy it tied to dark gritty action adventure. Somehow in my head the two exist side by side just fine.

I think they do the DC Easter Eggs very well; DC fans get the references but they are such that you are not missing important information if you do not recognize them.


DeathQuaker wrote:

The Season Finale on last night was excellent, in my personal opinion of course. While the season overall had its rough patches, the last several episodes have been each better than the last. I'd definitely suggest catching up. You should be able to see the last few episodes at least on the CW website.

What I am especially enjoying is seeing how everyone's heroic journeys is coming together, Ollie's but also his friends and family as well.

Serious spoilers follow.

** spoiler omitted **...

I completely agree with your opinion DeathQuaker, the finale was excellent!

While I don't believe this is the best genre show on TV, it is more than competently done. Whether it is called "Green Arrow" or not is irrelevant. I believe the writers are taking us there, but slowly as the character develops from revenge minded "serial killer," as Tommy so eloquently put it, into a true hero wanting to do the right thing.

As far as the finale:

Spoiler:

1) Loved, loved, loooooooved Merlyn being a smart evil megalomaniac and having a backup device so the hero couldn't show up in the nick of time! Quote of the episode "Redundancy."

2) Team Arrow is definitely shaping up with great chemistry. Diggle pulling Felicity's bacon out of the fire was EPIC!

3) I am getting a little tired of the "will they or won't they get together" Ollie/Laurel merry-go-round. (Yes, I know they slept together, but still haven't pulled it together for a relationship)

4) It's nice to have a strong (moral/intelligent/funny) female character like Felicity. And IMHO, Emily Bett Rickards is 10x hotter than Katie Cassidy!

And finally...

5) If any of you out there thinks we've seen the last of Merlyn (either one), you don't know anything about comic books!

-Strange Doc

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Respond to StrangeDoc's spoilers

Spoiler:

I'm going out of order here:

Quote:
4) It's nice to have a strong (moral/intelligent/funny) female character like Felicity. And IMHO, Emily Bett Rickards is 10x hotter than Katie Cassidy!

I feel sorry for Katie Cassidy. I read a world of hate for her online and I just don't get it. Even when people are trying to compliment someone else, somehow dissing her has to come into it, as above. Don't get it.

Now, I absolutely agree Felicity is a phenomenal character, and Emily Bett Rickards performs her stellarly.

As for Katie and her character of Laurel: Laurel suffered from some inconsistent writing through the series unfortunately, but generally I like the character and the direction she is taking -- she is absolutely strong, moral, and intelligent (less funny, although she's willing to laugh at herself at least). She is protective of children. She likes spicy food. She is an amazing lawyer. She is willing to take incredible risks to serve and protect her clients. She is to me a heroic character.

She also plays it close to the hip. Her emotions are there, but they are subtle (and IMO well played, however). She is not a manic pixie dream girl, she is not quirky; she is likewise not violent or a temperamental warrior babe; she is not the snarky sassy one; nor is she waifish or helpless or absorbed only in romance and girly things; and she is not an evil ice queen, not even a defrosting one like Moira. She is just cool, calm, collected, and smart, and deeply emotive only in very extreme situations. In other words, she is atypical for a female TV show character, especially one on the CW. She is actually a lot like a typically MALE action hero (even if her action scenes are few as she is not exactly at this point an action character) -- she does not go crazy with emoting, but her feelings are an undercurrent. People see Diggle or Ollie behave like that and it's the way they are supposed to be. People see Laurel behave like that and she's apparently wooden or "Katie can't act" (even though she can; she's done a lot of the interchanges with her Dad beautifully; she always strikes me as someone who is simmering with lots of feelings underneath but manages to always keep it reined in save when it really hits the fan, like her fighting to run in after Tommy). I find that strange and sad that her character type, just the smart, cool-headed girl, is apparently unacceptable for TV. I hope as the series continues, she breaks some boundaries there. Now that Tommy is out of the way--she and he had zero chemistry and that in particular underserved her character I think as he had a little more to do outside their plotline than she did--I hope that will stop detracting from her image, so to speak.

She is also a lovely lady--I don't think there's anyone on the show who I don't mind looking at--but that's neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:
3) I am getting a little tired of the "will they or won't they get together" Ollie/Laurel merry-go-round. (Yes, I know they slept together, but still haven't pulled it together for a relationship)

Now on this, I agree, to a degree. I think they should go on a slower friendship course for a bit and dial back the tension a little.

Especially since anyone who really thinks Ollie and Laurel should be endgame haven't really paid much attention to comics Green Arrow and Black Canary. They aren't exactly Clark and Lois--they've had a lot of ups and downs, and there's no "canon guarantee" they can or should end up together (or if they do, that it should end well. Didn't their last (now retconned) marriage end with Dinah killing brain-screwed Ollie?). And frankly, in the comics, I think they were always most enjoyable as exes who are good friends. I hope they end up going that route. I don't think the show handles romance well anyway and they should probably keep it low. Thea and Roy is enough for me for now.

Quote:
5) If any of you out there thinks we've seen the last of Merlyn (either one), you don't know anything about comic books!

I know a good deal about comic books. I also know that this is a TV show, and TV shows have contracts with actors, and Colin Donnell has confirmed that his character has been killed off and he will no longer be part of the cast. Maybe he's lying, but it seems unlikely.

Also, remember that this is a no-powers show, however comic book inspired. Even with Nanda Parbat in existence, the popping up of a Lazarus Pit or anything would be unlikely. Not impossible, of course, and I'm willing to be wrong. But I feel pretty confident that Tommy's dead, especially with the above information. I think the only kind of "surprise I'm alive" stuff is going to be "didn't see the body" situations--like we saw Deadshot shot in the face and thought he might have been killed, but we never actually got a confirm on that, and lo and behold, he of course had not been killed after all. Tommy, impaled through the chest with debris falling on his head, as Oliver weeps as Tommy STOPS BREATHING, seems to be more of a "this is a dead body" scene. And of course, again, the actor is not returning.

Malcolm, on the other hand, I would not be surprised if he shows up again--he is more like Deadshot, we don't know what happened after he passed out. After all, it's questionable as to whether Oliver was lying or not when he told Tommy he had not killed his father. Also, John Barrowman has mentioned that he at least WANTS to be filming more Arrow in July (although that could be for flashbacks), and if they were going to kill him, seems like they already would have told him, given they told Colin about Tommy's fate in February (see link above).

Again, could always be surprised but this is where I'm hedging my bets--Tommy dead, Malcolm alive.

Quote:

1) Loved, loved, loooooooved Merlyn being a smart evil megalomaniac and having a backup device so the hero couldn't show up in the nick of time! Quote of the episode "Redundancy."

2) Team Arrow is definitely shaping up with great chemistry. Diggle pulling Felicity's bacon out of the fire was EPIC!

On these points, absolutely 100% agreed! I really love Diggle, Ollie, and Felicity as a team and the show has often been at its strongest when dealing with them.

Dark Archive

Regarding DeathQuaker's spoilers;

Spoiler:
I like Felicity, but find her too 'obviously quirky' with the over the top awkward comments. It's probably meant to be cutesy or endearing, but it just bugs me. She's not as fluttery and cloyingly 'nerdy' as the average Felicia Day character, but still, a little of that goes a long way. Laurel is much more interesting to me, as she shows her feeling without looking like she's trying to overact to reach for the cheap seats. I haven't hung around any Arrow fanforums, so I'm unaware that she's being dinged for being a wooden actress, but I wonder if that's on her, or on an audience that's been jaded by scenery-chewing to the point that they think that anyone who *isn't* a terrible overwrought actor is somehow doing it wrong...

The guy who plays Tommy, on the other hand, seemed to have these weird facial tics whenever he was supposed to be all emotional and stuff (like when other people brought up his mother, or in the scene where he breaks up with Laurel and walks out of her apartment), which sort of scream out 'I'm trying to emote here! Watch me emote!'

Then again, the guy playing Oliver has some strange quirky facial reactions at times, like the lower half of his face is all scowly and determined, while the top of his face is cracking up at some secret joke.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Also, StrangeDoc, regarding my comments on Laurel, I am responding in general to online commentary; your remark just kind of sparked it but I'm not directing all that straight back to you. Rereading I realized I sound a little more adversarial than I intended.

Set, I think your theories may well have a good deal of validity.

Also, is it September yet?


DeathQuaker wrote:

Also, StrangeDoc, regarding my comments on Laurel, I am responding in general to online commentary; your remark just kind of sparked it but I'm not directing all that straight back to you. Rereading I realized I sound a little more adversarial than I intended.

Set, I think your theories may well have a good deal of validity.

Also, is it September yet?

No offence taken. I actually like Katie Cassidy, especially from her Supernatural run as Ruby. I was actually just expressing a aesthetic preference for the actresses as opposed to character. It didn't come off as I intended. And I agree, she is an atypical CW character.

As for the Ollie/Laurel issue, I am very familiar with their comic history and was actually refering to the writers' penchant for having one of them decide to persue the other, then the other pulling away and then flipping the dynamic around the next week (or at least that's how I perseive it)!

As for Diggle, it is awesome to have a character that could easilly have been a "sidekick" stereotype become Ollie's compass and an integral member of the team.

Thanks for responding and I appreciate your point of view.

-Strange Doc

P.S. Is it September yet?

Grand Lodge

Just fantastic.

Honestly, this is the first Superhero TV series to catch my attention since Batman when I was a kid. Yes, I am that old. I was never a big Superman fan; and I know some people really enjoyed Smallville, and back in its day Lois and Clark. I just couldn't get into them.

Arrow has been compelling. John Barrowman as The Black Archer has been surprisingly very good in the role. It is quite the departure from Captain Jack.

Stephen Amell has been just spot on as Oliver Queen. (I do miss the goatee though.) And I know I am in the vast minority, but I like the flashbacks.

spoiler:
The last episode appropriately showed Oliver reaching in to finally be truly heroic, and not some selfish wimp rich boy.
Good stuff.

Paul Blackthorne is such a gifted actor. What a coup to have him as a regular on the show. He does gritty cop extremely well.

Concerning the women, they have all been well crafted. Susanna Thompson really has showed some thespian chops with elegance and grace along with fear, concern, and the sublties of subterfuge. Willa Holland is really cute, and has been perfect as Thea. Katie Cassidy is gorgeous. I believe her role will expand in the second season. But Emily Bett Rickards is truly a star in this. I like her silly awkward comments. She plays brainy nerd very well. And yes, she is easy on the eyes too. The screen just lights up when she is on it.

As much as I love Doctor Who, I have enjoyed this first season of Arrow better than any other show on TV; though Elementary is a very close second.


Yeah, I want to like the character of Laurel, and I certainly don't have the hate for her that some folks seem to, but her character really suffers in comparison to many of the other characters on the show - and I don't know if that is due to acting, or writing, or some combination of the two.

But anyway. That finale. Damn. I was amazed by how much they were able to pack into a single episode of television. So intense! They managed to avoid all the pitfalls I was worried about, and definitely surprised me with how it all ended. I'm very eager to see what comes next season.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Mazra, I think you and I have similar tastes in TV shows. :)

With Laurel, I think she's been underserved by some of the stories. Where there have been stories that focused at least at some point on her feelings--her fight with her father, her concern for the little boy--she has shone quite well.

Whenever she's just love triangle girl, the guy Tommy and Oliver fight over, she as a human being fades into the background (with a few rare exceptions). Interestingly when she is a friend to them, and to Oliver in particular, she is more interesting -- her opening up to him and them agreeing to have lunch worked better than any more forced triangly or romantic tension moment.

I also like her relationship with her dad.

Unfortunately, I think the one plot that really would have supported her better got awfully rushed or clipped--which is of course the story of her mother's return. Somehow I have a feeling there is an excellent story about the Lance family drama on the cutting room floor that the public will never see (this is triply a shame because for what aired, they horribly underused Alex Kingston as Dinah).

I hope they focus more on her as a professional in the next season; she obviously deeply cares for her work for CNRI and she's often at her best when she's seen really interacting in that environment (more than happening to be there when she takes a call). I'd also like to see her in self-defense class or at the firing range since obviously she's trained somewhat in those areas and she's been attacked often enough, a smart, prepared girl like her would be getting some extra practice in.

I'd actually like to see her befriend Felicity. They've met now, so that could happen.

But in the end -- she needs to be her own character, not just Love Interest Girl (that's why Lana Lang was so irritating in Smallville; she had absolutely no purpose except to be an object of others' desire). I mean, sorry to bring the comics into things, but when you look at this lady here, you do not go, "Oh, that's Oliver Queen's girlfriend." You go, "THAT is Dinah F!~+ing Laurel F**$ing Lance." Laurel doesn't need to turn into comics Black Canary, but she needs to be recognizably her own woman.

I will shut up about this now, I promise.

As for Felicity, I think sometimes she can be caricature-esque at times, but one thing to remember is--she was intended (surprisingly) to be a one-off character. Fan and network response was so strong they changed that. So they had to flesh her out in a hurry, and she can seem a little shallow in terms of character development at times (the last few episodes in particular however defy that). I imagine now that she's been promoted to series regular, we will get some gaps filled in and she will continue to feel more "real" and less like requisite quirky geek girl. I really hope we get in particular more background on her--she seems to have no friends or family wondering where she is or waiting for her to come home, so I'd like to know a little more of what that's about, especially.

And for the whole cast... god, everyone is cast so well in this, with the obvious exception of Jessica de Gouw as Helena, who they appear to have found in the bottom of a box of Cheerios. Otherwise, Stephen Amell--nails Ollie's conflicted nature, and is so very easy on the eyes; Susannah Thompson IS "Moira Queen, Mother of Mystery"--just nails a very complex character and just carries off an amazing physical presence as well; Colin Donnell's playboy with a heart of gold balanced his irresponsibility with his kind inner nature really well and he has those boy next door work; John Barrowman is so very good as Malcolm I really hope they find a way to keep him on the show for a very long time, one way or the other (and I actually pray to god they never resurrect Torchwood because I would rather watch him as Malcolm than Jack any day). Willa Holland has worked hard to bring out the real girl underneath Thea's party exterior. David Ramsey handles Diggle in his ex but always soldier role so well and is so impressive. We've already discussed Katie Cassidy and Emily Bett Rickards (and if we are gonna discuss looks, Emily, girl, keep those glasses on; yum). Only one I don't quite have a finger on is the guy who plays Roy, but I like where his story arc is going and he carries him off well at least, and wow with the parkour.

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