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Are you playing 3.5?
If so, there's a spell from Wizards 3 article in Dungeon Magazine, an official source of spells, that gives a spell (Amandar's Cloak? I can't recall the name) that 'hitches a ride' on all Time Stop spells that take place in the area.
He used it when getting ambushed by a FR wizardess higher level then he was, and sending her into a big metal helm on the astral plane filled with an anti-magic shell ("Vleem! says Ed). There's a scene where she pops in, Dalamar's Time Stop goes off, he moves; Mordenkainen's Time Stop goes off, he moves; her Time Stop goes off, she moves...and then Elminster interferes with her about to cut Mordy's throat.
Sounds like just the thing your Dragon needs.
The other would be a black star sapphire.
Apparantly, in the FR, black star sapphires forbid all spells of chronomancy within 60' of themselves, including time stop, haste and similar things.
Lastly, you could simply have a wish spell that prevents spells of chronomancy or dimensional manipulation in the dragon's lair. Imagine their expressions when not only Time Stop doesn't work, but Haste fails, they can't Summon anything, and they can't teleport out or around when they want to run.
Of course, that won't save the Dragon from a Smiting Paladin wiping it on the first round with Manyshot Arrows at +40 Smite dmg per arrow, but we can dream.
==Aelryinth
You can also use time stop. I would gate in creatures with greater dispel magic. They only job is to use it to counterspell the arcane caster. That will stop the time stops. The dragon , and his some of the other planar allies can concentrate on killing the arcane caster. I would also try to move the body of the arcane caster to a place where the party can't reach it. Putting it inside of a bad of holding, and the rupturing the bag of holding should work well. The cleric should be the next to die.
Hmm, that dragon is only a CR 22 against 5 level 20's. He will have a tough time winning. It is better to custom build the dragon with your own selection of spells and feats.
Mage armor, shield, and mirror image are good defensive spells. There are a few more you can use. Deflection from the APG is also a nice spell. If someone fails to hit your AC in melee they have to make an attack against themselves.
First off, read the spell description carefully and make sure that your players do not attempt anything that the spell description forbids.
Second -- I cannot access d20pfsrd at the moment, but I assume that the dragon has Antimagic Field on his list of spells known? Have him cast that spell as soon as he is aware of the party, and the caster of Time Stop will be unable to get within 10 feet of him.
Alternatively, if the party does not have a reliable way of detecting invisible creatures and the dragon has enough warning, he could cast greater invisibility on himself before attacking the party by surprise.
You may actually want to consider having the dragon flee from its first encounter with the party once they do enough damage to convince it that they are a credible threat. Then you can pull out all the stops on the next encounter, since the dragon will know that a party of high level adventurers is after him and can be well prepared -- note that he gets Discern Location at will as a great wyrm red dragon, so the chance of the party sneaking up on him should be very low.
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I ran something like this once.
Have the dragon be tricksy. Prepare a lair with illusions (e.g., programmed images of the dragon bursting in to get PCs to waste their best tricks), permanent walls of force giving the dragon some convenient lairs, acid-filled pits the dragon can bull rush people into, permanent illusions of walls and rocky areas. Perhaps a number of symbols, keyed to not affect the dragon?
Project image can be real handy.
The dragon probably has some kind of contingency and should have every permanent spell known to dragonkind. And of course he has Quicken Spell too, and probably Extend Spell for a bunch of all day low level buffs. Might as well cast most of those low level slots before hand since he won't get a chance to use them during combat.
Maybe some kobold servitors? Amusing if nothing else, and which of them is a 1 HD kobold and which a 15th level sorcerer? Plus they can rig up lots of traps.
Smoke or fog filling the lair so intruders don't get line of sight to the dragon but he can still detect them with his dragon senses, and react appropriately.
A smart dragon will assume tough adventurers have taken all the standard precautions (e.g., resist energy and protection from energy vs. the dragons breath weapon, see invisibility and true seeing and mind blank up, etc.). He'll probably breathe on them anyway just in case they're stupid.
All that said, multiple high level adventurers are a real bear. Action economy, which time stop really multiplies, will be a killer. Find ways to give the dragon extra actions (e.g, cleave for an effective second attack, summoned minions -- there could be quite a few high level traps of summon monster IX floating around), that sort of thing.
Use its minions, terrain of its lair. Without true seeing, they could even waste some of their attacks on its mirror images or use an illusion spell.
Have you talked about how much prep rounds the party has? I'd give them none - surprise, surprise.
Ruyan.
The double smite damage only applies to the first successful attack. But that's still +40/+40/+20/+20/+20/+20.
If you're using 3.5 stuff, grab the Draconomicon. There are lots of good spells for dragons in there, plus items for them to use. For example spells that change the energy type of their next Breath Weapon. It'll shock them when the red dragon breaths electricity.
Don't neglect Toughness and a Con boosting item for the dragon (I would drop Cleave). That'll add 116 HP to give it a total 565. Players at 20th level hit hard and every little bit of HP helps. If the fight is happening in the open, don't be afraid to back off and use an item to cast Heal on the dragon. A staff with the heal spell and UMD means he gets 150 HP back with each charge.
Again, if the fight is outside, Improved Invisibility is awesome. True Seeing only goes to 120 ft, and only works for the person who has it. Pick up a couple of long range spells and the dragon can wear down some of their resources from a distance. It'd be hard to pinpoint where the dragon is when he's 1400' away casting Horrid Wilting (un-typed damage, fort save so Evasion doesn't apply, plus it kills plants which reduces cover for the PC's).
Have rocks fall on them and they die.
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Be sure to let your dragon raid his hoard and oufit himself with some items.
And make sure the Pc's get no chance to do a prepared attack.
Outside is better for dragons than inside, they have a mobility advantage and can do hit and run from out of range of many forms of attack.
Fickle winds only affects medium creatures, bu Winds of vengance is a 9th level spell that can be used to stop archers and a lot of other things too
The best place to fight would be the caldera of an active volcano, which is just where red dragons would have their lair. Use the magma and open space, along with all the goodness of a prepared lair.
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Contingency with greater dispell magic or teleport would work. And possibly something he could always have on him so it would be a spell he cast a few days back and wouldn't deplete his spells per day for the battle. Or Cast it yourself then self buff haste, displacement and other defensive spells then ready an action to swallow whole whichever pc you want, wizards would taste great as long as they don't have still spell. You have vulnerability to cold so prepare for that via protection from spells or a ring and using greater dispell magic try to get rid of any protection from fire spells they will have up. Use your incinerate ability on any but the fighters and your melt stone ability preferably above them so they get hit with the 20d6 then 10d6 lava damage
Above all else location is everything here, if they're coming into your cave that you get to design ahead of time there's no reason they should be able to walk out alive. Reference the tomb of horror for good trap ideas and have your cave set up so that the first floor is a maze and the second is a wide open cavern for you. Protection from scrying and An alarm spell at the only entrance would give you plenty of time to buff for battle and while they're deciphering the maze you could melt the stone beneath you and above them to rain lava down on them in the surprise round. And with traps set up that will potentially waste some of their spells they have reserved for the fight. Unless i'm mistaken protection from fire doesn't mean protection from lava
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Iron Golems are a red dragon's best friends.
Extended Mind Blank, Extended Invisibility, Silent Monster Summoning every round, to start. Partially flood the cave from some nearby water source and summon the sea creatures. Dragon can polymorph into something less massive for the first phase.
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Mage Armor, Shield, Mirror Image, Displacement, Project Image, Wind Wall, Proctection from Cold and any other buffs you can think of. Make the dragon hard to hit.
You can Contingency an Anti-Magic Field to go off if hit by an enemy timestop. With the Anti-Magic Field up, the DR20 becomes impossible to bypass.
Make your dragon Chaotic Neutral instead of Chaotic Evil.
The Dragon has access to both Timestop and Disjunction. Make Liberal usage of both.
Mind Blank + Greater Invisibility: very, very difficult to bypass.
Use teleport and planeshift to your advantage. Feel free to leave, heal and return.
If they are attacking the dragon, he is inside his lair, an active volcano. Let them deal with the magma after you use that disjunction I mentioned above.
Consider swapping out some of those feats for something more effective: do you plan on using the vital strike line?
UMD +38: abuse it. A Hasted elder wyrm with lockjaw can deal some major damage. This is only the begining, look through the divine lists for some serious buffs and have scrolls. Don't forget several scrolls of Heal.
What other magic has the dragon acquired. Generate its loot and then use it. Rings, belt of physcial perfection, dozens of ioun stones embedded in its hide, etc.
Ash Storm: won't affect the dragon, will affect the players.
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Be prepared for the wizard in their party (especially with those rules of engagement) to cast Disjuntion as his first action.
Return fire: Cast Disjunction back at the party. You're either airborn or swimming in lava. Neither of those abilities will be removed from the dragon by Disjunction.
Or, if you engaged with a projected image, the party has just wasted a 9th level spell.
And by all means get the saves for the Dragon into nat 1 only fails category. Save or death sucks!
Improved Natural Attack/bite with Greater Vital Strike can be a game ender.
Oh, and don't write off the melees. A 2h Fighter can spend one attack and hit you for 200+ damage. A full attack from any level 20 can do the same.
And the Smite on that Paladin is for the first round, not the first attack. You start combining high Cha Smite, Power Attack, Dragonbane arrows, Axiomatic, Brilliant, Divine Power, Blessed Weapon with Haste and Manyshot on a +5 Holy Bow...yes, that Paladin could very, very easily wipe the Dragon in one round. There's an example on the pfsrd20 pages of a unique red dragon, where the company that put it out there as a challenge admitted that a paladin one-rounded all 800 hit points by Smiting with arrows that punched through even unique DR...
===Aelryinth
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Improved Natural Attack/bite with Greater Vital Strike can be a game ender.
Oh, and don't write off the melees. A 2h Fighter can spend one attack and hit you for 200+ damage. A full attack from any level 20 can do the same.
And the Smite on that Paladin is for the first round, not the first attack. You start combining high Cha Smite, Power Attack, Dragonbane arrows, Axiomatic, Brilliant, Divine Power, Blessed Weapon with Haste and Manyshot on a +5 Holy Bow...yes, that Paladin could very, very easily wipe the Dragon in one round. There's an example on the pfsrd20 pages of a unique red dragon, where the company that put it out there as a challenge admitted that a paladin one-rounded all 800 hit points by Smiting with arrows that punched through even unique DR...
===Aelryinth
Direct engagement will only result in a very dead dragon. It must convince the party to expend considerable resources before engaging.
Illusions, summoned negative energy elementals, polymorp a summoned dinosaur into a false dragon, projected images, tagging the group at range with Disjunctin while using Greater Invis + Mind Blank. Make liberal usage of scrolls to extend the dragons spellcasting abilities.
The Dragon is a 19th level arcane caster. It should act as such when facing a physically superiour opponent.
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U can do what i do what my gm does and have all the dragons have actual class levels. Its really simple to do but then again the game i play goe beyond level 20 and uses all 3.5 books and were just treating pathfinder as a supplement book using it as main guide lines for character creation. But ya if ur using all the books look up the Draconoicon, Races of the Dragons, and Sandstorm Mastering the Perils of Fire and Sand. Also the Spell Compendium with have lots of nifty spells to go about. O and u can always make it a dracolitch for pure awesomeness. If ur gonna go for the class idea id suggest Ranger for Favored Enemies while being bound with its companions ie all the kobalds that would be serving it. Or Rogue for Evasion and Sneak Attack. Best feat combo for rogue for this btw is Intimidating Prowess, Shatter Defenses, and Dazzling Display. The feat combo will allow u as a full round action perform a 30ft aoe intimidate that makes all enemies flat footed for x rounds.
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or better yet.. antimagic field... no magic = the dragon kill a few pc's around.
or better yet - a dead magic zone LOL
This isn't a bad idea at all, the entrance to your lair is a portal to a dimension you created with create dimiplane greater, and made permanent, nothing can scry in and no magic functions inside at that point the casters are 20th level commoners and the fighter/paladin are fighting you with mundane weapons, they can't teleport in or out so block the exit with your hugeness and pick them apart while you laugh at their futile attempts to attack you, just for fun you could make it a plane of fire and they would take fire damage the whole time they're in there as well unless they have racial immunity
Is it too late to swap to say a Blue Dragon, or any of them that have a Burrow Speed? Burrow is nasty.
First, raise the dex to over 18, then prepare the dragon using it's incredible resources. All stats should be wished to permanent +5, add another +5 from magical books. Always max hps for dragons.
There are so many options here. Floors covered in hundreds of fire trapped eggs, filled with poison, concealed by illusory terrain, or nets holding hundreds of fire trapped vials, filled with oil, suspended above bottle-necks in the dragons lair. Layer defensive wish contingencies to dispel, lower stats and saves. Wishes that remove all gear and clothing from intruders and place them in the dragons horde. Dragons are smart, powerful, wealthy and have centuries of dealing with adventures to be prepared for just this occasion.
take your time, be brutal. The thought of fighting a dragon should make your group shutter and cringe every time. There's a small list of creatures that all players should respect at all levels, and dragon is at the top of that list. Feel free to break RAW and give your dragon more class levels, more treasure (resources) to use for setting up lair defense.
Also make it half white to make it immune to cold also. Plus this just makes it more as far as stats go..... Next as I have already seen max HP per die. Also make its entire lair an anti magic area it can teleport there and so can the party but they can't get out with out being able to fly also they can't scry on it there as the scry won't work in an antimagic field. Keep in mind this shuts down time stop and all magic items the only way to get through his Dr now is smite and pentrating strike if they can hit it without all their magic buffs
1) Have the dragon fly (dragons have wings, remember?) up into the air enough that he is just at the maximum range of his breath weapon.
2) Proceed to use your Breath Weapon every time it's available.
3) Prioritize killing any player capable of dealing damage at range, that being anyone with a crossbow/bow/gun and any offensive casters.
4) Wind Wall and Spell Resistance to further negate anyone being able to actually touch you.
5) Enjoy the show as your PCs are forced to sit there and get toasted alive. How dare those little bastards think they can stand up to a dragon.
http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/09/11/counter-monkey-circle-strafe/
Seriously. Watch this video. It changed my entire opinion on dragons. They should NOT be enemies to mess with.
Layer defensive wish contingencies to dispel, lower stats and saves. Wishes that remove all gear and clothing from intruders and place them in the dragons horde.
That is hideous, and I love it! Old school dming, I will be stealing this and using it
And by all means get the saves for the Dragon into nat 1 only fails category. Save or death sucks!
Improved Natural Attack/bite with Greater Vital Strike can be a game ender.
Oh, and don't write off the melees. A 2h Fighter can spend one attack and hit you for 200+ damage. A full attack from any level 20 can do the same.
And the Smite on that Paladin is for the first round, not the first attack. You start combining high Cha Smite, Power Attack, Dragonbane arrows, Axiomatic, Brilliant, Divine Power, Blessed Weapon with Haste and Manyshot on a +5 Holy Bow...yes, that Paladin could very, very easily wipe the Dragon in one round. There's an example on the pfsrd20 pages of a unique red dragon, where the company that put it out there as a challenge admitted that a paladin one-rounded all 800 hit points by Smiting with arrows that punched through even unique DR...
===Aelryinth
Where is the bolded part from? Per the PRD I read it as "the first successful attack" not the first round of attacks. Just curious. Thanks!
woops, got Undead Scourge on the brain and mixed them up.
You are correct, first attack on smite only. I think the whole round instance was one shotting too many bosses and they scaled it back! It was the first round back in the first run through, they edited it back.
==Aelryinth
Don't forget to pick a few different spells. Improved invisibility + Mind blank actually goes a long way.
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So taking a few suggestions from here and compiling them and adlibbing some, have about a 20 to 30 ft hole leading straight down as the entrance to the lair, at the end of the rock tunnel is the only entrance to your dimiplane lair which is a dead magic zone, have a trapped (break away) ladder leading all the way down to the center of the ground level of the dimiplane (another 200 or so ft. Down). Inside the tunnel have a few contingency spells that if anyone aside from the dragon goes in a wish spell is cast that all their equipment is removed and placed in a different location.
If they climb down, the ladder breaks they fall if they fly down they avoid the ladder trap, either way they get hit by contingency spells possibly loosing all equipment, if contingency spells fail they keep their equipment but once they pass the entrance to the dimiplane all prepared spells stop functioning, unless they have a mundane means of flight they fall and take that damage. Once on the inside of the dead magic zone lair all casters are useless save them for last take out any archers first if they still have their equipment, then focus on any pcs that can fly once those two immediate threats are taken care of fly around out of reach and blast away at the helpless pcs that thought an ancient red wyrm would be an easy fight.
Play devils advocate for me here, can anyone find a way to defeat the above listed plan?
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Get an amulet of mighty fists with bane on it (and other stuff like) , after all since the players know that they are fighting a dragon, you should know the races of your the PCs...or just take human.
And of course you don't have to be evil, be good and get some potions "bestow grace of the champion", that should boost your saves.
Don't plan on the wishes doing much, the will saves at 20 are going to be high. Maybe do it with disjunction, I've used disjunction traps as a DM to pretty good effect, especially if the lair has a layered style of defense, which I think a dragon that old would have and put to deadly use. The point is less a 1 shot hose them than gradual attrition in that case.
As far as the demiplane, dead magic is a double edged sword. It will remove anything of the dragons that an antimagic field would, so you probably want to think hard about that one.
Smoke Vision (Ex) A very young red dragon can see perfectly in smoky conditions (such as those created by pyrotechnics).
This is an AMAZING ability. Use it. There should always be smoke around, and minions making sure that there is always at least a 20% miss chance even when someone is adjacent to the dragon....but it is better, cause the dragon has no miss chance.
Disguise works, and true seeing doesn't help. Maybe the dragon has a follower that has max ranks in disguise and can dress up something huge or colossal that is then "enlarged" to gargantuan (perhaps a simulacrum?). This works well especially when used in conjunction with illusions. Remember, that there is no interaction (save) until they actually attack and have some reason to believe things are awry.
Then there are fun things like create pits and quickened wall spells, I mean, rods of quicken are just fun for everyone!
And as someone earlier said, creating lava from stone is AMAZING!
How about using magic jar? Take spell focus necromancy a couple times, make sure that the dragon is using a +6 headband to pump the save dc. And then sit at the bottom of a pool of lava (behind a couple of traps and fake walls) and seeing if you can create a little fun and frolic using the characters as fodder??
Don't plan on the wishes doing much, the will saves at 20 are going to be high. Maybe do it with disjunction, I've used disjunction traps as a DM to pretty good effect, especially if the lair has a layered style of defense, which I think a dragon that old would have and put to deadly use. The point is less a 1 shot hose them than gradual attrition in that case.
Well I just looked at the spell contingency and you can only use a spell 1/3rd your character level with it so any 9th level spell is out
As far as the demiplane, dead magic is a double edged sword. It will remove anything of the dragons that an antimagic field would, so you probably want to think hard about that one.
And yes the dead magic would work against the dragon as well but he is still looking at being able to fly, use breath weapons, be colossal and have his damage reduction, all against pc's that would at best be completely mundane with no ability to cast a including spell like abilities
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Don't plan on the wishes doing much, the will saves at 20 are going to be high. Maybe do it with disjunction, I've used disjunction traps as a DM to pretty good effect, especially if the lair has a layered style of defense, which I think a dragon that old would have and put to deadly use. The point is less a 1 shot hose them than gradual attrition in that case.Well I just looked at the spell contingency and you can only use a spell 1/3rd your character level with it so any 9th level spell is out
Yep, but thats why I said trap =) Nothing stops you from making a disjunction trap at all. And if things get layered right, detect magic may or may not pick them up, and oddly enough, the whole trapfinder thing gets swapped out by a lot of rogues. So even if they do see it, runs up the odds of them expedning resources before the fight. Even if they do have a trapfinder and disabler, use the environment to force penalties to the check.
And yes the dead magic would work against the dragon as well but he is still looking at being able to fly, use breath weapons, be colossal and have his damage reduction, all against pc's that would at best be completely mundane with no ability to cast a including spell like abilities
As far as the demiplane, dead magic is a double edged sword. It will remove anything of the dragons that an antimagic field would, so you probably want to think hard about that one.
Yep, but if they have innate flight, or have prepared for such a thing, it can get worked around. Also be aware that if you do the dead magic demiplane, he gets no magic items either. Its a good idea, just was trying to make sure you were aware of all the costs. Personally, I think limited magic to limit the amount of caster stuff able to be done will hurt them more. It allows the dragon to be prepped for such an environment, while really, really limiting the party, especially if they have had to burn through resources, been suffering disjunctions etc the whole way through.
Don't plan on the wishes doing much, the will saves at 20 are going to be high. Maybe do it with disjunction, I've used disjunction traps as a DM to pretty good effect, especially if the lair has a layered style of defense, which I think a dragon that old would have and put to deadly use. The point is less a 1 shot hose them than gradual attrition in that case.Well I just looked at the spell contingency and you can only use a spell 1/3rd your character level with it so any 9th level spell is out
And yes the dead magic would work against the dragon as well but he is still looking at being able to fly, use breath weapons, be colossal and have his damage reduction, all against pc's that would at best be completely mundane with no ability to cast a including spell like abilities
As far as the demiplane, dead magic is a double edged sword. It will remove anything of the dragons that an antimagic field would, so you probably want to think hard about that one.
I'm not talking about using the contingency spell with wish, I'm talking about casting wish with conditional triggers.
Please note, that wished don't have to be directed AT the players to effect them. You can wish changes in the environment.
Also note, that your dragon doesn't HAVE to be a sorcerer. 19+ lvls in witch would be fun.
And remember that dragons, especially this old, have lived for centuries and are vastly intelligent. Don't let whiners crying meta-gaming prevent you utilizing the intelligence and experience a dragon deserves to be represented with. Including preparatory magics such as wishes. If any creature will have them, dragons will.
Yep, but thats why I said trap =) Nothing stops you from making a disjunction trap at all. And if things get layered right, detect magic may or may not pick them up, and oddly enough, the whole trapfinder thing gets swapped out by a lot of rogues. So even if they do see it, runs up the odds of them expedning resources before the fight. Even if they do have a trapfinder and disabler, use the environment to force penalties to the check.
True enough, disjunction traps and or wish traps definitely seem to be the way to go to try and burn up some of their prepared spells or weaken them down hp wise
Yep, but if they have innate flight, or have prepared for such a thing, it can get worked around. Also be aware that if you do the dead magic demiplane, he gets no magic items either. Its a good idea, just was trying to make sure you were aware of all the costs. Personally, I think limited magic to limit the amount of caster stuff able to be done will hurt them more. It allows the dragon to be prepped for such an environment, while really, really limiting the party, especially if they have had to burn through resources, been suffering disjunctions ect. The whole way through
True again, but I guess what I am trying to figure out is what CAN the party do to work around it? Even if they all have innate flight they are still looking to try and face down an ancient red. What pc race can match that?
To add to my above listed plan I think adding dismissal to the list of "spell traps" in the bottle neck of 20-30ft hole in the ground
Yes, your Red Dragon DOES have to be a sorceror/19. It's as natural to him as his breath weapon. Hell, sorcery was originally put forward as coming from having the bloodline of dragons.
If you're going to make it a Witch/19, you're creating a Dragon with class levels. There's a Black Dragon Great Wyrm in FR that is a Wizard/20, goes around creating dragon-only gates and portals and stuff, and except for the extra HD from Con, is only pegged a couple CR higher.
Gating in creatures is dependent on caster level, not hit dice. So a Red Dragon, as sorc/19, can't gate in a 20 HD creature. he can sure Monster Summon VIII if it's one of his spells, and tweaking the spell list should be a no brainer.
Note the cost of the spell component for Wish could make that dragon extremely pissed if he happens to have to keep casting it...and Wishes can be countered and saved against.
A potion of Grace only works for Good creatures. You'd instead have to give him a couple levels in Anti-paladin, and some demonic offspring. Note that a Great Wyrm with the anti-paladin aura that suppresses Auras of Courage and forces fear saves at -4 is a bloody TERROR with Dragonfear...
==Aelryinth
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And yes the dead magic would work against the dragon as well but he is still looking at being able to fly, use breath weapons, be colossal and have his damage reduction, all against pc's that would at best be completely mundane with no ability to cast a including spell like abilities
It would lose it breath weapon it's supernatural.
The antimagic circle only has a 10 foot radius so the dragon would have to pick a location to count as the center of the circle. If the attacker is not in the circle he would be ok.
And yes the dead magic would work against the dragon as well but he is still looking at being able to fly, use breath weapons, be colossal and have his damage reduction, all against pc's that would at best be completely mundane with no ability to cast a including spell like abilitiesIt would lose it breath weapon it's supernatural.
No its breath weapon is a special attack, and still functions inside aDead magic zone
The only thing that wouldn't work is spells, spell like abilities and special abilities, summoned creatures wink out of existence and magic items turn to just masterwork items, golems still function normally if created outside of the dead zone, so if you still felt threatened after taking away all their magic you could still get an iron golems and that combo