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Been thinking more about how to keep Shattered Star the sort of campaign I would want to run and most of my players would want to play. One thing that's bugged a number of us is how sneaky certain metagame aspects can be and how they affect some PCs' behavior and actions. When the concern of "this is what my WBL needs to be in order for me to function" is scratching at the back of peoples' heads, it often results in far less than heroic behavior even if that's what most people signed on for, or even player conflict over roleplaying vs. giving in to the needs of the metagame, and any number of other issues. Also related is the "you have to kill a lot of things to actually get xp", but I think most everyone that had that habit has broken out of it.
Personally, I want it dead. I don't even want it to be a concern, so that motivations like "let's kill _____ because they have stuff we want" can fade away and when exotic treasure is found it can be more a matter of flavor and immersion rather than "what is it worth?" If someone finds a finely crafted statue of whatever, PCs might be more motivated to just keep it. Or donate it to a museum/the Pathfinder Society.
Anything to prevent an action archaeology AP from even dipping into murder-hobo territory really. I mean sure, that sort of thing works for Skull and Shackles, but when it seeps into more heroic campaigns...it really grates.
So while I was initially worried about the focus on the Pathfinder Society, now I'm wondering if they're the perfect solution to this issue. Flat stipends based on levels, or split up within levels, or funding based on actual results and successful missions/ventures. Maybe the Society itself could have a real "It belongs in a museum!" attitude towards the things PCs would typically just consider loot, and these items can be treated like the treasure they're supposed to be.
Has anyone made any adjustments similar to this? What changes did you make? And how did it work out for your groups?
edit-This would also help enable players that actually wanted to play historian types that actually respect the sites they're in without feeling pushed into feeling like grave robbers.
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I think that recovering stuff for the Pathfinder Museum (or some other museum) is a great idea.
Lady's Light potentially has PCs that are literally scraping loot off the walls, and whilst that is a game style that many people enjoy (including myself, from time to time) it would be nice if parties that took a less destructive approach didn't feel like they were losing out as a result.
Wow !!!
I REALLY like this idea. It has gotten to the point with my guys, that even if I throw in interesting treasure, statues, jewelry, etc., all they want to know is "how much can we sell if for", aka the GP value.
As Shattered Star is the next AP that I will run, this is something that I will put a lot of effort into,
thanks!
-- david
Papa.DRB
This is a gret idea. Of course, Jone's "In a museum' quote would play right into the hands of a greedy Pathfinder venture-captain. Send the noble types to get valuable artifacts that the captain can keep for himself. :)
That was actually a joke thrown around in MAGE;The Awakening circles that Jones was a pawn of the Technocracy who found items that were kept out of the hands of the 'good guys'.
I'm taking measures to alleviate this in my Rise of the Runelords campaign right now. I told my players up front not to worry about Wealth By Level, as I'll ensure that they'll receive it. Essentially, if the PCs miss out on loot because of how they approached a problem, I'll add loot later. It's a bit of work, but it's not too bad.
It's reactive, and so there's a delay, but it's nice to allow the PCs to think freely without worrying about loot. You can even do it the lazy way by taking the combat gear that was missed and shoving it into a closet somewhere in the place they'll visit next. Though it's a good opportunity to randomly generate loot.
Edit: As for museum stuff, nothing yet, but I plan on dropping a hint that it might be worth more to a collector or somesuch.
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If you do, please let me know how it goes. It's probably going to be a while before we start Shattered Star!
Lady's Light potentially has PCs that are literally scraping loot off the walls, and whilst that is a game style that many people enjoy (including myself, from time to time) it would be nice if parties that took a less destructive approach didn't feel like they were losing out as a result.
Man, last session our dwarf was doing exactly that. Granted the site was a terrible terrible place and he was a dwarf and he did have catastrophic INT damage at the time...
Most of your loot is still going to be magic items, not historical artifacts, so you have to take that into account.
Yeah, the magical equipment is something I'm really wrestling with. Maybe make it available through different avenues(like as rewards for things like opening trade relations with _____ in Curse of the Lady's Light or maybe have the Society encourage a policy of "research first, then put it to use".
Then again, I'm also playing with the idea of using Ashiel's Ascetic Path rules for a small group of NPCs that may very well be available as cohorts or hirelings, using the "deeds" take on it rather than "buying" karma with loot. If that catches on with some PCs, that's one more nail in that metagame's coffin and makes things even easier.
@Aeshuura, now I think that's exactly what I'll quote to sum up the Pathfinder vs. Apsis conflict for the players that are relatively new to the setting. :D
@Stazamos, yeah, that's pretty close to how I'd prefer to present things so the players can relax.
Fantastic idea. We've abolished experience points (for similar reasons). This is an excellent suggestion to address the related wealth issue.
Give that man a chaotic good Orc.
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I'd just be concerned about how much wealth this implies the Society has and where they are getting it from. If they're paying a stipend to characters that allows them to keep to the WBL guidelines then the society will have handed out a lot of gold to just these members over the course of the adventure (assume 4 PCs, the AP goes to ~level 15 = 960,000 gp just to 4 of their members).
There are a lot of pathfinders - if the society gives out these stipends to everyone where are they getting that kind of money? They're not going to be selling the recovered items as they have the whole 'keep in a museum/preserve it for future generations' thing going on. Where is the revenue coming from that nearly a million gold is normal?
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Are you saying that you're going to keep the PCs from getting the actual magical gear that's used by the bad guys? If they kill an enemy who's got a flaming sword, they can't get it?
How will you justify that? Why can't they take it and use it?Taking the historical art objects and the like from the Thassilonian dungeons to a museum is one thing, requiring that of all gear acquired goes far beyond "not scraping the loot off the walls".
Nah, nothing so extreme as that. But that particular loot is still part of the problem that I'm wrestling with.
If it's loot that's acquired because you had to kill some dudes, it's one thing. What I'm trying to avoid is people feeling like they have to kill some dudes to acquire loot, and having that weighing on character decisions and behavior.
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I'd just be concerned about how much wealth this implies the Society has and where they are getting it from. If they're paying a stipend to characters that allows them to keep to the WBL guidelines then the society will have handed out a lot of gold to just these members over the course of the adventure (assume 4 PCs, the AP goes to ~level 15 = 960,000 gp just to 4 of their members).
There are a lot of pathfinders - if the society gives out these stipends to everyone where are they getting that kind of money? They're not going to be selling the recovered items as they have the whole 'keep in a museum/preserve it for future generations' thing going on. Where is the revenue coming from that nearly a million gold is normal?
Gah, missed this:
I wouldn't take this as the standard practice for the society actually. I'm thinking of playing it in Shattered Star as a special situation, with Sheila Heidmarch pulling in funds from both the Society and certain concerned parties within Varisia who are very much invested in the matter driving the AP. It would start off small, but as more and more evidence mounts up, Sheila has a lot more leverage to pull to bring in more resources.
And then there's alternate sources of funding as well through the other NPCs outside the Society that have their own matters the PCs may get involved in.
Hopefully it would further drive home the feeling of "this is very important work you are doing."
Now if only I could find a group and all the Shattered Star books to run the game this way.
To me it is the quintessential Pathfinder Society v. Aspis Consortium dichotomy. "It belongs in a museum" v. How much can we sell it for?
I love it, and have been trying to break my players of the habit. Though often fail miserably. :p
That reminded me.
I'm still baffled about the fact that the Aspis Agent Prestige Class doesn't have any alignment restrictions. Aside from a Chaotic Good Robin Hood (sell the items and give the money to the poor), I can't really see any person associating with the Aspis Consortium being capable of being very virtuous.
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I much prefer when items are given to my characters as a reward from someone that I helped. In this case it might be the Heidmarchs, it also might not be Society funds, but rather things that they had gathered in their adventuring days.
Also, we have a variety of other cash cows that may be used as benefactors. Sabbriya, the Lord Mayor, a nameless noble, or even Szcarni underboss could all be benefactors that provide income and/or items.
Anyway, I will let you know how it works out! I'm supposed to start tonight, but being sick may throw a monkeywrench into those plans!
I've successfully broken my group of this very problem. It took some time for a couple of them to make the switch, but most of them embraced it without much trouble.
What I did was outright tell them that I will ensure they have the appropriate Wealth By Level that I want them to have. If they go scavenging for every loose coin and bit of enemy gear, it'll add up to the total I want. If they decide to give a large amount away to the starving widow and her six kids, they'll end up with the total I want. Every level, I hand out the right amount in total; every two or three levels, I have one of the players do an audit of how much wealth they have, so I know if I need to adjust things.
I also have "story items" that the group finds because the adventure dictates they will - magic items or art objects that have story significance. Sometimes I designate these as story items when I hand them out - that these are not included in the "wealth by level" amounts they will earn, and they are welcome to keep or dispose of them without it counting toward the treasure they're meant to have. I do this when I want a particular item to stay in the group, but the PCs would normally be likely to unload it. This may be too metagame for some groups, but my players seem so far to appreciate the transparency.
The guy in my group who had the worst trouble accepting all of this has recently made the switch to the opposite extreme - recently, he argued that the group didn't need to bother fully exploring a place they were investigating, because "If we're supposed to end up with more treasure, we'll find it, we don't really need to go looking." Heh.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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As a matter of how the Pathfinders gain their wealth, they probably do sell some of the redundant items. With all of the items they gather, they certainly can't keep or learn from them all. While they certainly would keep the unique items, they shouldn't be hanging onto the numerous +1 weapons, ancient scrolls, and plenty of other common items. They have the added advantage of having established clients, like the Blackros or Pathfinder agents who need better gear.
I really like this idea. I wish it had occurred to me when I ran my players through Carrion Crown #2, because that one really assumes PCs that leave nothing nailed down.
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What I have been doing is I have created a Chronicle Sheet. After every session, I put in the list of items that they found (I allow them to purchase at 1/2 price, essentially them buying out the other players' shares for the item) and figure out XP, and monies generated from finishing missions, selling loot, and other rewards.
I am running a HIGHLY modified Shattered Star AP, and have made it more that my players are hired by Sheila Heidmarch to be her "agents"... then, some or all of them can choose to become Pathfinders or not.
I also have modified the Prestige/Fame awards to be more generic. It is prestige and fame that they are gathering from doing good and heroic deeds. The farther they travel from the home base the lower their fame is, until they pass through a region. So, for example, they have a Fame score of 10 in Magnimar, then they head to Kaer Maga, their fame might be a 2. Some of the players there may know of these heroes, but until they make a splash there, they will not be able to access their full fame score.
Anyway, it's still a little bit of a work in progress, and they just hit 2nd level, so I still gots time! :p