| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Recently new magic items have made it more likely for barbarian characters to Rage cycle.
At lvl 17 the barbarian becomes immune to fatigue. This power is considered by most to be the capstone for a barbarian. This is because at this point a barbarian can jump in and out of rage as they wish. Thus 1/rage powers now become at will powers. This is done by raging, using a power, and then on their next turn stopping rage / starting rage (Free actions) to refresh their powers again. By Raw this is 100% legal.
This tactic has been brought up for FAQ in the rules section and was passed over (thus players trend towards this being a legal tactic). However, I have mentioned this tactic at tables and have gotten nothing but no's from most people. Reactions such as...."Not at my table!", "No way that's legal!", etc. PFS is pretty rock solid on GM's banning single pieces of the rules (That being a no) but I feel that a lot of GM's will have the same reaction I saw and ban the tactic anyway. What are people views on this?
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Recently new magic items have made it more likely for barbarian characters to Rage cycle.
I think the OP's point is that while this was not a concern when it was only applicable to 17th level characters, it *does* become a concern if, say, a 5th-level Barbarian can do this using a magic item.
Off the cuff (especially for a home game), I would probably rule that stopping rage as a free action and then immediately starting again would mean that you were never actually "done" raging -- and therefore that it's still the same rage. Now, if a player were to rage, stop raging for a round, and then start it back up again, then it seems pretty clear that it's legal.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
As it is you can get rage cycling in 3 ways other than waiting to lvl 17. All you need is to be immune to fatigue.
1) A single lvl of oracle with lame curse (Immune to Fatigue)
2) flawed scarlet and green cabochon ioun stone + Internal Fortitude (8,000 gp, Converts fatigued to sickened and you are immune to sickened)
3) Cord of Stubborn Resolve (27,000 gp, Immune to Fatigue)
Probably the most powerful combination is the rage power spell sunder. It allows the barbarian to sunder (read dispell) any spell or spell like effect. There are a lot of other powers that are also useful.
It's not the powers that people seem to be against but the idea of rage cycling in general. Since the tactic is not specifically worded out as something the barbarian can do but an effect of being immune to fatigue.
of course PFS doesn't go to level 17, where EVERY barbarian gains that ability.
but if you have another way of negating the fatigue, then you can do it earlier.
this can be multi-classing, alt racial features, rage powers, having spells cast on you, etc.
there's even a barbarian archetype (scarred rager) that reduces fatigue effect duration by 1/2,
meaning 2 rounds of fatigue (from 1 round of rage) is reduced to 1 round,
and 1 round effects initiated on your own turn expire just before your next turn.
i don't know, if you don't 'over use' the ability, i think there will be less complaints,
and 'as always' the unmentioned aspect is that NOT USING THIS TACTIC (however you achieve it)
is always going to be a more efficient use of your rage, since there are many benefits of rage both on and off your turn.
some ways to rage cycle are very limited (in # of times you can do it, or other ways: the way scarred rager works means you cant use it to rage cycle OFF YOUR TURN for AoOs, etc, but only ON YOUR TURN), but when that isn't true... do remember that the number of times you can take free actions in a round is entirely up to GM fiat. so don't expect to be able to re-enter/ re-leave Rage multiple times per round for uber rage-nova'ing.
BTW- you need 5 levels of oracle with lame cure to become immune to fatigue...or 5 levels of martial artist monk. Either way, it's not an insignificant dip.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
BTW- you need 5 levels of oracle with lame cure to become immune to fatigue...or 5 levels of martial artist monk. Either way, it's not an insignificant dip.
1 lvl of oracle and then 8 lvls of barbarian (counts as 1/2 lvl for your curse) gets you to lvl 5 for your curse and you become immune to fatigue at lvl 9.
|
At level 17, this seems perfectly reasonable. Does not become fatigued, to me, means each round is a different instance of Rage for the barbarian. This doesn't make the barbarian immune to fatigue, and he can become fatigued via every way he could prior to level 17, and when fatigued (or exhausted) he can't enter a rage.
In the case of the Roused Anger rage ability, the barbarian must be fatigued to use it, and only after is he immune to fatigue for the remainder of that specific rage (and he still becomes exhausted after, even if he's level 17+).
I'm interested in seeing some of these new magic items to see how they affect the barbarian. Are they in Ultimate Equipment? I haven't had a chance to thumb through that yet.
|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
The problem with using this tactic is that it goes against the fiber of what it means to be a responsible player. This, like any other game with a rules book (and constant additional rules books) that is over 2,000 pages long, will have a myriad of loopholes. Mark/Mike have asked on numerous occasions that players not abuse the loopholes. They weren’t specifically referring to this particular type of thing, but rather loopholes within the house rules of PFS as they are currently set up.
But the thought process is the same. If you choose to exploit a loophole, that you believe is broken (the OP wouldn’t have asked the question if he didn’t agree that it was a loophole in the first place) then experiencing either table variation or some variation of derision is something you may have to deal with.
Just because it doesn’t say you can’t, doesn’t mean you can or should do it.
Getting an ability that you would normally get at level 17, at level 1 or 2 (or even 8 or 10 with magic items) seems to be in the realms of broken, and is probably a loophole that it would behoove you not to exploit. Especially when said loophole gets closed and now you only get to rebuild that one aspect of your character and your build choices were sub-optimal for anything but that build.
So use at your own risk.
The only avenue I could see a table judge taking to ban this tactic is the fact that a GM is allowed to set a limit to the number of free actions you can take in a turn. Would you all as table judges ban all players from being able to take 2 free actions a turn to stop this?
You know, with the ARG, halfling barbarians can do this as early as 1st level by spending a little gold and a couple of extra actions. They have a little food item which, when eaten by a halfling as a standard action, cures fatigue.
this isn't really on par with other rage-cycling strategies, since it burns your own standard action to do it. it is pretty good if you are interested in primarily the defensive usages of rage... you rage the first round, drop it at the beginning of the next round, eat (standard) and re-rage. you don't really have offensive actions on the 2nd round (and subsequent ones, if repeating it), but if you have the swift-action backpack you still have a move action to position yourself to draw AoO's, so it's not at all bad.
|
|
BTW- you need 5 levels of oracle with lame cure to become immune to fatigue...or 5 levels of martial artist monk. Either way, it's not an insignificant dip.1 lvl of oracle and then 8 lvls of barbarian (counts as 1/2 lvl for your curse) gets you to lvl 5 for your curse and you become immune to fatigue at lvl 9.
9 is still higher than 6. Still less than 17 and a full on immune is better than just not fatigued when the rage ends.
Getting an ability that you would normally get at level 17, at level 1 or 2 (or even 8 or 10 with magic items) seems to be in the realms of broken, and is probably a loophole that it would behoove you not to exploit. Especially when said loophole gets closed and now you only get to rebuild that one aspect of your character and your build choices were sub-optimal for anything but that build.
The issue has been on the table for quite a while (well over a year) and was brought up almost immediately by the rules forum after the oracle came to be. As I said before, it has been FAQed multiple times and each time passed up. I agree that it is odd to give barbarians their best ability early but at what point do we look at the all the pieces (multiple FAQ's passed, multiple ways of doing it with items) and come to the conclusion that it is no longer a loophole but an intended consequence?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
The only avenue I could see a table judge taking to ban this tactic is the fact that a GM is allowed to set a limit to the number of free actions you can take in a turn. Would you all as table judges ban all players from being able to take 2 free actions a turn to stop this?
No, but I don't need to.
There's a difference between a lot of free actions, and two free actions that are exactly opposite one another. If you want to draw and shoot arrows, explain yourself to a comrade, drop your bow, drop prone ... all on a turn, that's all fine.
But I grow suspicious of shenanigans if you want to pick up an item (made a free action via a feat) and then drop it again. Or open a wayfinder and then close it again.
I see that this thread was moved to the rules section. Sigh....that's not what I was looking for. I was trying to see how other PFS players and table judges felt about the tactic and how they would handle it at their table, not whether the tactic was legal (that's been beat to death in a 1000+ post thread).
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
But I grow suspicious of shenanigans if you want to pick up an item (made a free action via a feat) and then drop it again. Or open a wayfinder and then close it again.
What if I'm a rogue with Stand Up and want to do some push-ups at the end of every turn? ;)
Quick clarification: free actions, despite the name, can only be taken on your turn.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Rage cycling: cheesy, and I wouldn't allow it. The powers are clearly meant to be 1/combat.
If they were "clearly" meant to be 1/combat they would state as such.
"A barbarian cannot enter a new rage while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise enter rage multiple times during a single encounter or combat."
Looks like you can enter a rage multiple times in a combat. So if your immune to fatigue you could enter and exit rage to use 1/rage powers more often.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
This has to come up a lot for PFS, let alone all the home games.
Funnily enough, it doesn't. It's almost as though players are interested in other, more powerful options. But of course that can't be it, since that would mean people on the internet might be wrong about a combo being broken, and we all know THAT never happens.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Things to consider from a RAI perspective
- Is the intent of Tireless Rage that you can drop into and out of rages without taking fatigue penalties? I'd say yes.
- Is it also intended to make your 1/rage powers effectively 1/round? I'd say yes also, that sees reasonable considering it's a 17th-level ability (to compare, at 17th level casters can get wish/miracle...).
- Is it appropriate to try to get an equivalent ability through other means? I don't see a problem with that, considering that you're usually making pretty big sacrifices in order to do so.
Generally in order to get immune to fatigue, you need to either:
- take a racial trait which gives up your human skill points and only works once a day. Hardly crippling.
- multiclass. If you're going oracle, for example, you can "dip" it but you're still getting smacked with an unremovable curse that's as much a drawback as a blessing at low levels ... which are the levels this matters at anyway. And dipping out of full BAB is a meaningful sacrifice.
- use a magic item that takes up the belt slot. This one may be a bit overpowered, I'll admit.
But is rage cycling overpowered, in and of itself? No, I don't think so. Remember that barbarians only get a limited number of rounds of rage/day, compared to the ten extra feats fighters get that are on all the time. Making their powers more useful when they still have to burn limited resources to use them seems fine to me.
nothing wrong with rage cycling. i see it as a good thing. let the barbarian rage cycle. i don't care if he effectively gets dispel magic at will. it still takes an action to dispel one spell that he isn't spending dealing damage.
It's not legally binding since he's not on the Paizo Dev team, but I asked the author about this item and he said the intent was that it could be used for rage cycling. Can't provide a link to that as I asked him off-site.
Jason Nelson, another author who has done a ton of barbarian stuff but is also not an official Pathfinder Dev Team member, also mentions rage cycling as a working thing quite often.
I do not recall any issues with regard to ragecycling not working by the rules.
This has to come up a lot for PFS, let alone all the home games.
Why won't they issue some clarification on this?
Honestly I don't see it much of an issue in homegames. If the GM has a problem with this he bans it, no matter if it's technically legal. That's one of the things he's there for.
In PFS, well that's where the PFS guys have to make a ruling. But they seem to like to go the easy way and never make such decissions themselves, instead hiding behind "we do what's RAW" even if that is the big question and there is no official dev-ruling.
But since I don't play PFS I don't really care to much about that.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not sure what the big deal is. A player is using resources of some form, be it items, feats, multiclassing or whatnot, to gain an ability. I'm not sure how a barbarian rage cycling is any worse than a pearl of power, ring of wizardry, the spont caster runes or any other of the myriad ways a caster can recharge their limited use abilities. Which are, a lot of times, have a much larger potential to either trivialize encounters, simplify the parties life etc. So, how exactly is rage cycling worse?
And as someone said, there is still action economy, just because the barbarian can recharge his 1/rage powers doesn't mean he automatically gets enough actions to use them.
Rage cycling: cheesy, and I wouldn't allow it. The powers are clearly meant to be 1/combat.If they were meant to be 1/combat, they'd say something like that. They don't.
If they had it would have just moved the debate to when does combat start/end. Once per rage would seem to be more definitive.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Remember, rage cycling has a cost. You enter a new round while on rage, so you expend 1 round of rage to maintain it (you can't drop your rage off turn, it is a free action doing that), then you re start the rage, paying another turn of it.
So every turn you rage cycle you pay 2 rounds of rage.
That cost can be avoided dropping the rage at the end of your turn, but then you wouldn't benefit from it when being off turn. No superstition bonus, no strength bonus for the AoO.
The level dip things is a bit cheesy but well within the rules. The magic items is pricey enough to make that solution affordable only at middle high levels.
There are way worse things tactic.
What 1/rage power is so strong that rage cycling to use once a round makes it over powered?
(I am honestly curious)
I don't actually think there are any. Let's see...
Spell Sunder - requires a valid target (ie a spell), and you're not actually doing any damage.
Strength Surge - is excellent, but only usable to either resist combat maneuvers or to make them, or strength checks (in all cases, you're not, you know, attacking). Also, it takes your immediate action.
Surprise Accuracy - Get a bonus to attack. Who cares? Barbarians hit all the time anyway.
Mighty Swing - Auto-confirm a critical hit. Nice if you've a crit-focused build. However, minimum level 12, and are you really threatening a crit every round anyway?
Unexpected Strike - This has potential - make an AoO when a foe moves up to you, even if they didn't provoke. But is that really going to happen every round anyway?
|
|
that is what I was finding also Sir Ophiuchus. I could not find a "game breaker" for not allowing Rage cycling.
There is still the chance that I am missing it, but that is why I am asking here. Many minds are sometimes better than one.
Spell sunder sounds weaker then say the rogue Dispelling Attack.
Dispelling Attack* (Su): Opponents that are dealt sneak attack damage by a rogue with this ability are affected by a targeted dispel magic, targeting the lowest-level spell effect active on the target. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. A rogue must have the major magic rogue talent before choosing dispelling attack
I see that this thread was moved to the rules section. Sigh....that's not what I was looking for. I was trying to see how other PFS players and table judges felt about the tactic and how they would handle it at their table, not whether the tactic was legal (that's been beat to death in a 1000+ post thread).
[sniff][sniff]Yeah, smells cheesy to me.
I'd point to page 181 of the Core Rulebook where the use (or abuse) of free actions is strictly the GM's decision.
"However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM."
In general, I limit free actions to only using the same free action once per round unless the rules clearly indicate that it can be used several times per round (such as the case of drawing ammo for use with a bow). I would consider Entering Rage/End Rage to be the same for the purposes of this ruling.
This doesn't completely break a rage cycling character as they would still be able to enter a new rage every other round.
Spell sunder sounds weaker then say the rogue Dispelling Attack.
In all fairness, it's better, because a barbarian using strength surge is going to just blow your spell away with spell sunder, and it ignores miss chance due to spells. Invisible creature around? Let's sunder the invisibility spell!
But, again, it's not exactly broken to be able to remove a spell once a round. Particularly when it means you're spending that round not doing damage.
Remember when everyone was complaining about linear warrior quadratic wizards? Give barbarians something that resembles parity, and suddenly it's the worst thing ever.
I mean, yes, of course it *can* be cheesy. But honestly, it's not gamebreaking and it takes effort (and has a high opportunity cost) to be able to do. Don't sweat it.
Remember, rage cycling has a cost. You enter a new round while on rage, so you expend 1 round of rage to maintain it (you can't drop your rage off turn, it is a free action doing that), then you re start the rage, paying another turn of it.
So every turn you rage cycle you pay 2 rounds of rage.
I'd image that a player using such, well for lack of a better term, a cheesy tactic would argue that he's only raging in one round so there shouldn't be a double cost involved.
That cost can be avoided dropping the rage at the end of your turn, but then you wouldn't benefit from it when being off turn. No superstition bonus, no strength bonus for the AoO.
Oh you mean I lose my -2 penalty to AC 'benefit' as well. Sad panda.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Remember, rage cycling has a cost. You enter a new round while on rage, so you expend 1 round of rage to maintain it (you can't drop your rage off turn, it is a free action doing that), then you re start the rage, paying another turn of it.
So every turn you rage cycle you pay 2 rounds of rage.
I'd image that a player using such, well for lack of a better term, a cheesy tactic would argue that he's only raging in one round so there shouldn't be a double cost involved.
That cost can be avoided dropping the rage at the end of your turn, but then you wouldn't benefit from it when being off turn. No superstition bonus, no strength bonus for the AoO.Oh you mean I lose my -2 penalty to AC 'benefit' as well. Sad panda.
There are only two ways to rage cycle.
1. At the start of your turn enter rage(free action),take turn, exit rage(free action). Rinse repeat.
Pros: Only 1 round of rage per round used.
Cons: No rage bonus in between turns.
2. At the start of turn(this is the second round)exit rage(free action) and then enter rage(free action).
Pros: Always raging.
Cons: Costs 2 rounds of rage.
That's it. There is no trick or "cheese". It's legal, it's RAW, if you don't like it then house-rule it. Just as long as you understand it is a house-rule.
There are only two ways to rage cycle.
1. At the start of your turn enter rage(free action),take turn, exit rage(free action). Rinse repeat.
Pros: Only 1 round of rage per round used.
Cons: No rage bonus in between turns.2. At the start of turn(this is the second round)exit rage(free action) and then enter rage(free action).
Pros: Always raging.
Cons: Costs 2 rounds of rage.That's it. There is no trick or "cheese". It's legal, it's RAW, if you don't like it then house-rule it. Just as long as you understand it is a house-rule.
According to my understanding of the rules, this is correct.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's legal, it's RAW, if you don't like it then house-rule it. Just as long as you understand it is a house-rule.
"However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM." It's legal, it's RAW, no need to house-rule it.
|
|
Remember, rage cycling has a cost. You enter a new round while on rage, so you expend 1 round of rage to maintain it (you can't drop your rage off turn, it is a free action doing that), then you re start the rage, paying another turn of it.
So every turn you rage cycle you pay 2 rounds of rage.
That cost can be avoided dropping the rage at the end of your turn...
Actually, you are allowed to drop Rage at the start of your turn, and not get "charged" that turn. So you could, at the start of combat, at the start of your turn, begin your Rage, and at the start of your next turn, end your Rage, and only have used up 1 turn of duration. Then, right after you drop out of Rage, you can enter a new Rage (using up 1 turn of duration), provided you can either rage while fatigued, or are for some reason not fatigued. So the cost is still 1 round per round.
|
|
At the moment, I'm being lazy but still thinking. There are several abilities that make you immune to fatigue. Does that mean you cannot be fatigued, or that you simply don't suffer the normal penalties for being fatigued? In other words, does being immune to fatigue mean you don't take the penalty to STR/DEX but are still considered fatigued for the purpose of entering a Rage?
I'm under the impression immune is just you can't become fatigued, but is there clarification on this?
At the moment, I'm being lazy but still thinking. There are several abilities that make you immune to fatigue. Does that mean you cannot be fatigued, or that you simply don't suffer the normal penalties for being fatigued? In other words, does being immune to fatigue mean you don't take the penalty to STR/DEX but are still considered fatigued for the purpose of entering a Rage?
I'm under the impression immune is just you can't become fatigued, but is there clarification on this?
Interesting idea but I would say if you are truly immune to fatigued than you can never have that condition.