Can you make a metamagic rod with multiple abilities

[jyster]

And if so, if you activate it, do you activate both abilities as a stand action as a magus, when you cast a spell.

[wraithstrike]

Only if the GM allows it. Any item not specifically in the book falls into GM Fiat territory.

[jyster]

So if a metamagic rod has empower and maximize, does it take a standard action to activate or do you need to spend multiple actions to use it, because it has 2 abilities?

[Flashohol]

your can create any magic item you can imagine IF your GM allows your character to do so.

[Devilkiller]

Something seems wrong with this, but I'm not sure if it is strictly against the rules. If I were the DM I'd probably say that you can put multiple metamagic feats into the same rod but could only activate one of them for a particular casting (though it might be convenient to have the feats in a single rod so that you don't have to spend actions stowing or drawing various rods)

Either way, combining multiple metamagics into a single rod should probably cost more than having the same metamagics in separate rods. The PRD rule is:

"Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities."

[johnlocke90]

You can't activate two metamagic feats through rods on 1 spell(thats pretty clear in the rules). It sounds to me like you are trying to use 2 metamagic feats at once without raising the spell level, which could lead to some overpowered combos.

[wraithstrike]

I am with johnlocke on this one. By the rules a GM can allow any magic item he wants, but this idea would never fly in my games.

[jyster]

Actually it isnt clear, thats why Im asking. If its one rod with 2 abilities that activate at one time, then it doesnt go against what it says under the rod section. If you have to activate one at a time, then it might go against what is said in the rod section, that is why Im asking. So dont get condescending with me (johnlocke90). Its just a question.

[Zotpox]

I might consider this for a artifact. ah la rod of 7 parts where each piece add's access to another feat in a tree.

[wraithstrike]

Jyster there are no rules for it because it is not something the game designers ever considered. That is how a lot of custom magic items are.

[Gauss]

Using the 'adding new abilities' rule you might be able to convince a GM to allow adding another metamagic rod to an existing metamagic rod. Since a metamagic Rod does not have a slot there would not be a +50% cost increase.

With that said, you can still only add the effects of one metamagic rod to a spell. Since you are combining rods into one I would say that that means you would still have to choose which metamagic rod effect to add.

All it would do in this case is to save you a move action to draw it or put it away and switch rods. I do not find this to be OP. In my games that I GM I might still require a minor cost increase to accomplish this minor action economy savings.

- Gauss

[Irontruth]

Considering you need to be 17th level to make a rod, I'm inclined to allow it. I would still lean towards only allowing one effect at time, or it would always have to be both effects. Definitely increase the cost.

[Gauss]

You do NOT need to be 17th level to make a rod. The CL 17 is there to set the DC for crafting and for purposes of dispel etc. It is NOT a prerequisite or requirement. Even if it were a prerequisite, which it is not, +5 to the crafting DC would bypass it.

- Gauss

[concerro]

Gauss is correct, and I spelled his name correctly.

[Gauss]

LOL Concerro. :)

- Gauss

[Irontruth]

Just curious, the reference for that?

I see text saying you can lower your caster level. I don't see text specifically for raising it though. Seems odd that a caster can create items capable of greater magic than they themselves can wield.

[concerro]

A magic item's prerequesites are always listed, and all of them can be bypassed except for the magic item feat needed to create the item.

Quote:

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory.

Quote:

Metamagic, Extend

Aura strong (no school); CL 17th

Slot none; Price 3,000 gp (lesser), 11,000 gp (normal), 24,500 gp (greater); Weight 5 lbs.

Description

The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are extended as though using the Extend Spell feat.

Construction

Requirements Craft Rod, Extend Spell; Cost 1,500 gp (lesser), 5,500 gp (normal), 12,250 gp (greater)

Note that the caster level is not listed in the requirements section.

[Irontruth]

So, a 5th level wizard can scribe 10th level fireballs?

[concerro]

There is also this from the FAQ:

Quote:

Pearl of Power: What is the caster level required to create this item?

Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.

However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st.

For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.

—Sean K Reynolds, 08/18/10

[concerro]

Irontruth wrote:

So, a 5th level wizard can scribe 10th level fireballs?

From the FAQ also:

Quote:

He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC)...,

[Irontruth]

Cool, doesn't make sense to me from the perspective of how caster level is usually treated, but it looks raw.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Irontruth wrote:

Cool, doesn't make sense to me from the perspective of how caster level is usually treated, but it looks raw.

Considering one of the Devs (in other words, one of the people who created the game) said that the requirement varies from what level the Pearl of Power is, it would be legit to rule it at such in any game.

[Captain Moonscar]

Scrolls srore a spell usually one expended from your daily allotment. So to get a higher caster level you need to get a cl 10 fireball from some where.

[Irontruth]

Captain Moonscar wrote:

Scrolls srore a spell usually one expended from your daily allotment. So to get a higher caster level you need to get a cl 10 fireball from some where.

Yes, you still need to have fireball memorized or known, but an item doesn't have to be set at the minimum level required to cast. If caster level isn't a requisite for creating the item, then you can make scrolls at a higher level. You just have a chance of failure when using the scroll if you aren't equal to or higher than the caster level.

It's no different than a 5th level wizard making a necklace of fireballs with some 10d6 beads.

I think that defies some logic in how casters are normally treated. There isn't much in the way of other methods of increasing your caster level for spells normally, but by RAW and FAQ it works.

The method works for stuff like a pearl of power, which would be way too long of an entry if each level had a different caster level, but breaks down a little when you add in higher caster levels for spell completion/trigger.

[Damiancrr]

I know this is necro Posting but since i looked this up i wanted to add this to the thread for people of the future.

As per RAW:

Quote:

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.

That includes scrolls.

[Drachasor]

Irontruth wrote:

Just curious, the reference for that?

I see text saying you can lower your caster level. I don't see text specifically for raising it though. Seems odd that a caster can create items capable of greater magic than they themselves can wield.

It's strange you can spend a lot of money and time crafting a magical item that is more powerful than something you can do in less than 6 seconds after a good night's sleep and less than 15 minutes of prep time?

Anyhow, yeah, you could put multiple metamagic rod effects into one rod by the rules (if the DM allows it). These rods are use activated, but you can't use more than one rod at once. Combining multiple rod effects into one rod should still count as multiple rods for this purpose.

Here's the relevant text on rods:

Quote:

Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell-like abilities ) as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

While multiple similar abilities under the guidelines are cheaper with non-slotted items, I'd say this shouldn't apply to metamagic rods. Maaaybe if it was the same metamagical effect you could get a discount, but that seems a bit too powerful to me off-the-cuff. So probably all it would do is save space.

Edit: Didn't read the last post and didn't notice it was a necro. Oh well.

[Seraphimpunk]

i love magic item crafting threads. they really bring out all the loopholes and caveats that hide under the dust from books after a while.

[James Risner]

Seraphimpunk wrote:

i love magic item crafting threads. they really bring out all the loopholes and caveats that hide under the dust from books after a while.

Mostly because seemingly everyone ignores the first couple rules of item creation:

1) Price based on similar items
2) Price based on similar power
...
3) If all else fails, use charts

People jump to #3 "use charts" to make their True Strike weapons of uber for 2000 gp.

[Seraphimpunk]

::nods::

and then the nitty gritty of "requirements" and "prerequisites" ,
when they can be ignored, when they can't, etc.

[Pizza Lord]

I am very against allowing item creation without requiring the actual spells. It leaves a door open for certain players to weasel out of spell component costs and actually punishes characters who craft items the way they were intended to be made when the design for magic item crafting (flawed though it may have been) were developed.

I know it's been discussed elsewhere, but:
Say an item duplicates a spell with a 2000 gp emerald as a material component. Normally the cost for that is factored in with the magic item materials cost. If you allow a crafter who doesn't have access to a casting of that spell (with only a +5 DC modifier) do they need to add the additional material component costs to the crafting price of the item like a normal crafter would?

If they say, "Well I don't need the spell to make the item now with these new 'rules' so I shouldn't have to pay the spell component cost." What do you say? Do you agree with them?

I mean, technically the item made without requiring the spell with the costly component is identical in function and worth to the one that did. The finished product might be 12,000 gp normally, but the player insists that 2,000 is spell cost and so his item only has an actual price of 10,000, meaning he only pays 1/3rd of that. Of course, it sells at half price of the 12,000 gp item, since it's the same functionally (unless the player wants to undercut others prices, which he can do with a huuuge window of profit advantage.

You can try and explain to the player that it doesn't work that way for balance, but then they could just say that if balance was the issue the developers wouldn't have made a system that punishes people doing it the right way and rewarding people who don't bother to put the effort in (other than by boosting a simple skill check).

**Edited a portion where spell costs with material components may or may not factor into crafting time until I'm certain whether a ring that can cast 2 wishes, for example, takes as long to craft as one that can cast 3 wishes.**

[Drachasor]

Quote:

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.

While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp. For many items, the market price equals the base price. Armor, shields, weapons, and items with value independent of their magically enhanced properties add their item cost to the market price. The item cost does not influence the base price (which determines the cost of magic supplies), but it does increase the final market price.

In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.

Not knowing the spell and taking the +5 DC does not change the price of the magic item. It just lets you make it without knowing the spell. Increased expense due to costly material components still must be paid.

So Pizza Lord, your concern isn't really an issue, as the rules don't let you skip out on costs like that.

[Pizza Lord]

You replied while I was editing that part, Drchasor. Speedy you.

[Pirate Rob]

Waking Rune:

Krune, the Runelord of Sloth has the following artifact:

KRUNE’S RUNE-CARVED ROD (MINOR ARTIFACT)
Aura strong (all schools); CL 18th
Slot held; Weight 5 lbs.

DESCRIPTION
Krune’s rune-carved rod is an evenly cut two-foot shaft of
weathered dark gray stone inscribed with hundreds of runes
that constantly shift, morph, crawl about its surface while
held. The rod functions as a greater metamagic rod with two
exceptions.

First, the rod is not limited to a single metamagic effect;
it can apply the following metamagic feats: Empower Spell,
Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Maximize Spell, Silent Spell, Still
Spell, and Widen Spell. When the wielder casts a spell, he my
apply up to three additional metamagic effects as it is cast.
Second, the rod has 10 charges that are renewed every
24 hours. Adding a metamagic effect to a spell uses up
a number of charges equal to the number of spell levels
increased by the metamagic feat.

DESTRUCTION
Krune’s rune-carved rod can only be destroyed if Lissala or
her herald personally destroys every mention of its existence
in writing. The rod can then be easily sundered by an
illiterate rune giant.

[Drachasor]

Pizza Lord wrote:

You replied while I was editing that part, Drchasor. Speedy you.

Do I get a gold star?

[Pizza Lord]

To be clear, using say, the Luck Blade as an example:

Quote:

Price 22,060 gp (0 wishes), 62,360 gp (1 wish), 102,660 gp (2 wishes), 142,960 gp (3 wishes)

Cost 11,185 gp (0 wishes), 43,835 gp (1 wish), 76,485 gp (2 wishes), 109,135 gp (3 wishes).

It will still only take 23 days to craft, regardless of the wishes it contains?

And it would still cost a person who does not have the wish spell or even the material components to cast the spell 109,135 gp to craft? Even though they say they aren't casting the spell and are removing that prerequisite, you are saying the rules clearly state that the 25,000 gp material cost is still now a required cost?

I am assuming it's the material component cost that makes the costs jump so high between the multiple wishes, seeming to indicate that an additional diamond is needed since mere spell casting costs wouldn't cover that increase, but it seems that the cost is the same even for a caster of miracle even without its need for a 25,000 gp diamond.

[Drachasor]

The DC +5 does not remove the prerequisite. It substitutes for not knowing/having it. This has nothing to do with the cost of the item.

With a Luck Blade, yes, the Base Price is used to calculate time to create. The Market Price and the cost to create are increased by the material components for the Wish. So it always takes 23 days (without rushing).

Think of the +5 DC as doing some careful magic trickery to replicate the spell-effect or feat, but you still need the proper material components to do that replication. You are substituting +5 DC for a lack of knowledge/ability, but you still have to work in the effect of the spell you don't know. So this still requires the right materials (or something of equal value if you want to fluff it up some particular way).

Nothing in the item creation rules indicates that not knowing the spell and using a +5 DC gets rid of this.

And yeah, it costs the same if you only have miracle. That's because the item casts Wish, which is different. For one, Wish lets you up ability scores and Miracle doesn't.

[Pizza Lord]

My concern about this isn't just about the cost, but how the system does nothing to make casting easier for those who do meet the costs. It actually makes it easier for those who do not. "Well that's the point, it was made to do that."
Maybe, but it gives a hugely unfair advantage not just in crafting but in actual adventuring and game-play by not slowing down the 'cheater' for lack of a better word, while doing nothing to compensate the characters who either worked and purchased the necessary skills, feats, had to play a specific race, or fill a spell known slot in preparation.

I have more to say about it, but I think here isn't appropriate any more. I think I will put it in General Discussion rather than Rules.

Thank you for being receptive.

[Cevah]

Pizza Lord wrote:

My concern about this isn't just about the cost, but how the system does nothing to make casting easier for those who do meet the costs. It actually makes it easier for those who do not. "Well that's the point, it was made to do that."

Maybe, but it gives a hugely unfair advantage not just in crafting but in actual adventuring and game-play by not slowing down the 'cheater' for lack of a better word, while doing nothing to compensate the characters who either worked and purchased the necessary skills, feats, had to play a specific race, or fill a spell known slot in preparation.

I have more to say about it, but I think here isn't appropriate any more. I think I will put it in General Discussion rather than Rules.

Thank you for being receptive.

Adding 5 to the DC allows you to make an item in the same amount of time without knowing one single component. It does not affect the cost since the cost does not involve casting the spells while making the item.

Pizza Lord wrote:

I am very against allowing item creation without requiring the actual spells. It leaves a door open for certain players to weasel out of spell component costs and actually punishes characters who craft items the way they were intended to be made when the design for magic item crafting (flawed though it may have been) were developed.

...
I mean, technically the item made without requiring the spell with the costly component is identical in function and worth to the one that did. The finished product might be 12,000 gp normally, but the player insists that 2,000 is spell cost and so his item only has an actual price of 10,000, meaning he only pays 1/3rd of that. Of course, it sells at half price of the 12,000 gp item, since it's the same functionally (unless the player wants to undercut others prices, which he can do with a huuuge window of profit advantage.

Since the rules don't work this way, there is no sidestepping the cost. The 2,000 spell cost does not go away by not actually providing the spell. His crafting cost is 10,000. The 1/3 rule you are thinking is the cost relative to mundane crafting, i.e. making the base item the enchantment is being applied to.

To show this by example, say he wants to craft a suit of +1 full-plate armor. Price is 1,500 [base armor] + 150 [masterwork] + 1000 [enchantment] = 2,650 GP. Skills needed is Craft(Armor) and Spellcraft. Assuming an effective skill in Craft(Armor) as 10, he can take 10 to craft the armor at a skill level of 20. This nets him 40 GP/week to craft the mundane armor. That is 41.25 weeks to make mundane masterwork full-plate. Once the base material is made, it can be enchanted in one day for the 1,000 GP of magical crafting. Cost will be 1/3(1,500+150)+1/2(1000) = 1,050 GP.

Luck Blade wrote:

Price 22,060 gp (0 wishes), 62,360 gp (1 wish), 102,660 gp (2 wishes), 142,960 gp (3 wishes)

Cost 11,185 gp (0 wishes), 43,835 gp (1 wish), 76,485 gp (2 wishes), 109,135 gp (3 wishes).

Without accelerated crafting, you can make a 0-wish luck blade in 23 days, and a 3-wish one in 143 days. Crafting time is one day per 1000 gp, rounded up.

Pizza Lord wrote:

I am assuming it's the material component cost that makes the costs jump so high between the multiple wishes, seeming to indicate that an additional diamond is needed since mere spell casting costs wouldn't cover that increase, but it seems that the cost is the same even for a caster of miracle even without its need for a 25,000 gp diamond.

Re-read the miracle spell.

Miracle wrote:

Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 25,000 gp in powdered diamond because of the powerful divine energies involved.

Miracle wrote:

When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component.

You want the power, you pay the fee.

As to making a metamagic rod with multiple effects that need only a single activation for all effects, I would rule it that is always works that way, and is priced as a single effect of the same total level offset. Here is a table pulled and excerpted from the SRD:

Price (gp) Metamagic Rod
1,500 Metamagic, merciful, minor
3,000 Metamagic (+1 spell level), minor
5,500 Metamagic, merciful, normal
9,000 Metamagic (+2 spell level), minor
11,000 Metamagic (+1 spell level), normal
12,250 Metamagic, merciful, greater
14,000 Metamagic (+3 spell level), minor
24,500 Metamagic (+1 spell level), greater
32,500 Metamagic (+2 spell level), normal
35,000 Metamagic, quicken, minor
54,000 Metamagic (+3 spell level), normal
73,000 Metamagic (+2 spell level), greater
75,500 Metamagic, quicken, normal
121,500 Metamagic (+3 spell level), greater
170,000 Metamagic, quicken, greater

Note that "merciful" is +0 spell level, and that quicken is +4 spell level. A minor rod affects spells up to 3rd level, a normal rod affects up to 6th level, and a greater rod affects up to 9th level spells.

I do not see a simple equation to determine the price from the level adjustment, so I cannot recommend any for more than 4 spell levels.

/cevah

[Cevah]

Cevah wrote:

Since the rules don't work this way, there is no sidestepping the cost. The 2,000 spell cost does not go away by not actually providing the spell. His crafting cost is 10,000. The 1/3 rule you are thinking is the cost relative to mundane crafting, i.e. making the base item the enchantment is being applied to.

Make that 12,000 not 10,000.

/cevah