# Armor, Equipment, and Encumbrance: How do You Play?

### Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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ciretose wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:

Basically, if a player asks you how far the distance is of a gap then you can say "Unless you have a tape measure you don't exactly know."

They can take a risk and try to take 10 but they may end of failing.

My concern was that it seemed meta that someone could "know" exactly what distance they would travel if they took 10 and therefore could go exactly that distance.

It appears that was intended to be taken into the calculus of taking 10.

Learn something new every day.

I think what happens is the player's wait for the DM to tell them what the DC is beforehand and then the player decides whether or not he can take 10.

I don't always provide the DC up front. If there is a situation where the DC shouldn't be known then I won't provide it, I will just ask you to roll and I will tell you if you make it or not.

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ciretose wrote:
If Sean is saying that part of Take 10 is knowing exactly how far that distance is, Sean writes the rules and that is the rule.

If by "that distance" you mean how far the PC jumps when he either takes 10 or rolls a 10, then yes, that's what he was saying.

Quote:
I thought there was a gray area based on if the player could "know" the distance and if there was doubt and it was dangerous that would matter.

Again, when you say "the distance", do you mean the width of the gap or how far the PC can jump?

Quote:
Sean is saying that the player would have no doubt.

...of how far the PC can jump. He agreed with you that the player/PC might not know how wide the pit is. He then said (again) that the width of the pit does not affect whether a PC can take 10, only whether or not they might decide to.

So if you say "the pit looks about X feet wide" and the PC knows they can jump X feet, then the player has four options:
1) "I'll jump it. I rolled a ##. Did I make it?"
2) "I'll jump it. I take 10 and get ##. Did I make it?"
3) "I'll get out my measuring cord and measure the width of the pit."
4) "Let's find another way around."

All four are legal.

Why are people still trying to argue when I said I am wrong?

Apparently If the pit is 10 feet, I know I can jump 10 feet. The fact that 10 feet is exactly the maximum I can jump while taking 10 is apparently part of the calculus.

I thought it was more of "I know I can clear that gap" rather than "I know that my personal distance is 10, therefore I can ascertain anything 10 or less as being something I can jump."

Seriously, I conceded. Why are you still trying to pick a fight with me at this point?

Cause it's FUN?

TOZ wrote:
Cause it's FUN?

I like arguing as much as the next guy...well, I think I like arguing much more than the next guy. I just don't get arguing with someone who said "Yeah, guess I was wrong. My bad."

I was wrong about the rule. Sean pointed out where I was wrong. Mea culpa, my bad, good to know, etc, etc...

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Nah, once again we were just talking past each other. :)

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ciretose wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Cause it's FUN?

I like arguing as much as the next guy...well, I think I like arguing much more than the next guy. I just don't get arguing with someone who said "Yeah, guess I was wrong. My bad."

I was wrong about the rule. Sean pointed out where I was wrong. Mea culpa, my bad, good to know, etc, etc...

Accepting one has lost an argument always confuses the Internet.

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I am so confused!

the Internet wrote:
I am so confused!

You are for porn. There is nothing more to understand.

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Steve Geddes wrote:
ciretose wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Cause it's FUN?

I like arguing as much as the next guy...well, I think I like arguing much more than the next guy. I just don't get arguing with someone who said "Yeah, guess I was wrong. My bad."

I was wrong about the rule. Sean pointed out where I was wrong. Mea culpa, my bad, good to know, etc, etc...

Accepting one has lost an argument always confuses the Internet.

If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.

 Contributor

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ciretose wrote:
If Sean is saying that part of Take 10 is knowing exactly how far that distance is, Sean writes the rules and that is the rule.

I never said PCs automatically can eye-measure distances without error. But if you're a jumper, or an adventurer who lives his life in increments of 5 feet, you're going to develop a good sense for eye-measuring distances.

The issue we've been discussing is whether or not you can Take 10 on a jump, not whether or not a character can exactly know a distance without measuring it. As Ashiel suggested, grab a rope or a 10-foot-pole and measure it if you really need to know the exact distance.

If the player asks "how far is it?," and the GM says "about 10 feet," and the player uses Take 10 because he knows his Take 10 result gets him 11 feet, that's fine.

And if the gap was actually 12 feet and he fails to clear the gap, that's within the margin for error of eyeballing it, and that's fair.

And if the gap was actually 15 feet, the GM is being a jerk for estimating it at 10 feet; if the player knew it was closer to 15 feet, he'd know that was beyond his Take 10 result and would have to decide if he wanted to chance a roll on it.

In any case, he's still allowed to use the Take 10 rule on his jump, which is what we've been talking about. It doesn't matter if the chasm is one inch wide, 5 feet, 10 feet, 50 feet, or a million miles... if the player wants to use Take 10 on the jump, he can, even if he doesn't know that means he'll fail to span the gap, and even if he does know he'll fail to span the gap. Maybe he's trying to get into range of his wizard ally on the other side of the gap who's ready to cast feather fall on him as soon as he's in range. Maybe he's hoping to land on some spikes at the bottom of the chasm so he can have a dramatic death scene. It doesn't matter... he can use the Take 10 rule, whether rolling a 10 would save him or kill him, and whether he knows how far the distance is.

Ok you can do suicidal and stupid take 10's under the rules.

Will that make you stop yelling at me that I am even more wrong than I previously admitted or is there something else?

 Contributor

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I just want you to admit you're wrong for the right reasons. ;)

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Admittedly I'm going to house rule if you are going to take 10 to do something stupid and/or suicidal I'm going to add the famous and time honored GM phrase "Are you sure about that?" but I can understand why you don't want to restrict what a player can choose to do.

Let them be dumb is part of the game.

To derail the derail, any notion of what the DC would be to spot the difference between 10 and 11 foot gaps?

 Contributor

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Hmm.

Well, 1 foot is about the size of a Tiny creature, and Tiny creatures have a +8 bonus on Stealth checks, so if you treat that last foot as a Tiny creature trying to hide itself from your view, I'd say that's a DC 10 check, +8 from the size bonus, +1 for the opposite side of the gap being 10 feet away (+1/10 feet rule), for a total of DC 19 to notice that a gap is exactly 11 feet instead of "about 10 feet." ;)

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Hmm.

Well, 1 foot is about the size of a Tiny creature, and Tiny creatures have a +8 bonus on Stealth checks, so if you treat that last foot as a Tiny creature trying to hide itself from your view, I'd say that's a DC 10 check, +8 from the size bonus, +1 for the opposite side of the gap being 10 feet away (+1/10 feet rule), for a total of DC 19 to notice that a gap is exactly 11 feet instead of "about 10 feet." ;)

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why he is a paid game designer and you aren't :)

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Without a doubt, we have all just witnessed the most important rules clarification this game could ever use.

I'm digging this Tiny Creature ~ 1 ft equivalence. My bard's movespeed is 30 grigs per round, and he has a 10 cat pole for trap finding.

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Cheapy wrote:

Without a doubt, we have all just witnessed the most important rules clarification this game could ever use.

I'm digging this Tiny Creature ~ 1 ft equivalence. My bard has a 10 cat pole for trap finding.

Pole cats, of course ?

Now I want to measure everything in pugwampi...

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Your stones, imperial and short ton, chains and fathoms aren't enough? Try entering in the XIX century with your measurement.

I had DC 20 in my head, but the ability to justify is where I came up lacking. That said, when I was younger and working with my old man, a master woodworker, I could eyeball 16ths of an inch all day long. He could do 32nds.

Anybody that doesn't love SKR? :D
He and James Jacobs are just fantasic!

Considering that feet are totally counter-intuitive for anybody who lives on the correct side of the big water, I've come to measure things in halflings. "The gap is 5 halflings wide, good luck with that jump".

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Gorbacz wrote:
"The gap is 5 halflings wide, good luck with that jump".

Head to foot, or shoulder to shoulder?

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Jiggy wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
"The gap is 5 halflings wide, good luck with that jump".
Head to foot, or shoulder to shoulder?

Belly to belly.

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Zark wrote:

Anybody that doesn't love SKR? :D

He and James Jacobs are just fantasic!

Best things to happen to Pathfinder since its inception.

I play basketball occasionally, I have a decent sense for the difference between 15' away and 20' feet away (free throw and three point line respectively). I can't measure them exactly, I can't tell you the difference between 20 and 21 feet away. But I don't think a sense of distance is unreasonable.

It's like when DMs say "you see a bunch of orcs"

"How many?"

"You can't tell exactly"

"So...more than a million? Less than a hundred?"

Ballpark numbers are useful and more descriptive than "you can't tell". Also they're realistic, even if they aren't accurate. 800 orcs can be "hundreds, maybe thousands".

A 15 foot gap can be described as "easy for someone who practices jumping and doesn't wear armor", 20 feet becomes "nearly impossible for unskilled jumpers".

 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

ciretose wrote:

Ok you can do suicidal and stupid take 10's under the rules.

Will that make you stop yelling at me that I am even more wrong than I previously admitted or is there something else?

It was never about getting you to say you were wrong. It was always about getting you to understand.

TOZ wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
"The gap is 5 halflings wide, good luck with that jump".
Head to foot, or shoulder to shoulder?
Belly to belly.

Turn them around.

Requiem for a Dream.

That is now burned in your mind.

Sorry.

Jiggy wrote:
ciretose wrote:

Ok you can do suicidal and stupid take 10's under the rules.

Will that make you stop yelling at me that I am even more wrong than I previously admitted or is there something else?

It was never about getting you to say you were wrong. It was always about getting you to understand.

I understood, I didn't agree. I still don't fully agree, but it is the ruling and it isn't an illogical or unreasonable ruling.

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