butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkey


Rules Questions


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so lets say you have a Beast-bonded witch level 1, fighter level 6, gave all of your feats to your monkey, such as scimitar weapon prof, combat expertise, butterfly sting, two weapon fighting.

Your monkey gets 3 attacks with his keen scimitar that crits on a 15 - 20 and does 1d3 damage.

lets say he crits all 3 times, can he bestow all 3 crits on the next person to hit it? (me who is wielding a pickaxe x4 crit 1d8 damage)or does only one go through?


All Three.

With Seize The Moment and Combat Reflexes this gets even more ridiculous


It looks like this should work. Do note however that monkeys are Tiny, and thus don't threaten any squares, and need to enter an enemy's square(provoking an AoO in the process) in order to reach their target.


I would say only one would go through. There is nothing in the text of the feat to indicate that the critical hits would queue up or anything.

Besides, does it really matter if you only get ONE x4 critical hit? If you must, add some Magus levels and use Spellstrike. Then use Critical Strike to add a second spell.

Because, you know, it isn't Butterfly Sting if it the enemy isn't reduced to fine red mist.

Silver Crusade

Nope, the critical hit would be granted to the next ally hitting the creature. You could affect several targets, but a single target could only suffer a single critical hit from your ally, because if you crit once and attack again the same target, you would simply transfer your first crit to yourself. This would work with Seize the Moment though.


So if I gave my tiny monkey a keen faucard one less attack but no aol.

Dark Archive

Rogar Stonebow wrote:
So if I gave my tiny monkey a keen faucard one less attack but no aol.

Not quite, first as maximillius stated the monkey counts as his own ally so anytime he actually crits (and confirms) he will have to end his turn so you can attack otherwise he just passes that crit back to himself (for a net loss in damage).

Now if you burn the feats on yourself to get combat reflexes and sieze the moment then it COULD work out but you're burning a LOT of feats to rely on the attack bonus of a 2 HD who's to hit bonus is going to be ABYSMAL. (Remember the familiar improvements are based on the masters class levels that grant a familiar. So in your case that would be 1st level.
Now before anyone says take the eldritch heritage feat remember you're already 6 feats in the whole to make this trick even work at 7th level.

You might want to give it more thought whether it's worth it or not.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:
So if I gave my tiny monkey a keen faucard one less attack but no aol.

Not quite, first as maximillius stated the monkey counts as his own ally so anytime he actually crits (and confirms) he will have to end his turn so you can attack otherwise he just passes that crit back to himself (for a net loss in damage).

Now if you burn the feats on yourself to get combat reflexes and sieze the moment then it COULD work out but you're burning a LOT of feats to rely on the attack bonus of a 2 HD who's to hit bonus is going to be ABYSMAL. (Remember the familiar improvements are based on the masters class levels that grant a familiar. So in your case that would be 1st level.
Now before anyone says take the eldritch heritage feat remember you're already 6 feats in the whole to make this trick even work at 7th level.

You might want to give it more thought whether it's worth it or not.

Did that change? because it says under familiar basics the monkey uses the bab of all of the master's classes and then add the familiar's dex or strength bonus which ever is higher


So far, I have played 2 PFS games at level 1 with this char. and his monkey, and let me tell you. The monkey Has done more damage than the Martial characters so far... Albeit due to they have missed a lot, where as my monkey has rolled criticals in each game. I always have him climbing high and firing from higher ground to get that additional +1 to hit. Which has made a difference. However, he does attack every two rounds. Right now, he is currently equipped with a Heavy Crossbow, am thinking about equipping him with a repeating light crossbow, less damage per bolt, but, more attacks. And with the light repeating crossbow, he can make use of a high BAB.


Maxximilius wrote:
Nope, the critical hit would be granted to the next ally hitting the creature. You could affect several targets, but a single target could only suffer a single critical hit from your ally, because if you crit once and attack again the same target, you would simply transfer your first crit to yourself. This would work with Seize the Moment though.

That's why Seize The Moment is important.

The ally's attack would be granted as an AoO as soon as the Butterfly Sting Crit was confirmed. It would happen during the monkey's attack sequence.

Then, once the Ally's AoO crit was resolved, the monkey would continue it's attack sequence, granting immediate AoO crits to their ally with each successful Butterfly Sting.

Two fighters built around this combination, or a single Fighter/Inquisitor capable of granting Seize the Moment to whoever's nearby, is a terror.


Unfortunately seize the moment requires way to many feats for my pfs game to work except very late near end game. But in a home game I'm definitely going to do this!


Doomed Hero wrote:
The ally's attack would be granted as an AoO as soon as the Butterfly Sting Crit was confirmed.

When Butterfly Sting says that you "forgo the effect of the critical hit." I interpret this as meaning you lose absolutely all of the effect, including triggering things like Seize the Moment. It is as if it just didn't happen at all.

Otherwise, it could be even grosser than you are saying. Butterfly Sting triggers when you "confirm a critical" and allows the ally to "confirm the hit as a critical," meaning there isn't any reason they couldn't also use Butterfly Sting if they have it. If you consider these to be critical hits for Seize the Moment or Outflank, that would mean the original character would then get their own attack of opportunity, which would confirm as a critical triggering another AoO before being passed back to the second character with Butterfly Sting, and so on. They could pass the same critical hit back and forth until one of them missed or they ran out of attacks of opportunity. Really, really abusable, and not how I interpret the rules the work in the first place.

Dark Archive

Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:
So if I gave my tiny monkey a keen faucard one less attack but no aol.

Not quite, first as maximillius stated the monkey counts as his own ally so anytime he actually crits (and confirms) he will have to end his turn so you can attack otherwise he just passes that crit back to himself (for a net loss in damage).

Now if you burn the feats on yourself to get combat reflexes and sieze the moment then it COULD work out but you're burning a LOT of feats to rely on the attack bonus of a 2 HD who's to hit bonus is going to be ABYSMAL. (Remember the familiar improvements are based on the masters class levels that grant a familiar. So in your case that would be 1st level.
Now before anyone says take the eldritch heritage feat remember you're already 6 feats in the whole to make this trick even work at 7th level.

You might want to give it more thought whether it's worth it or not.

Did that change? because it says under familiar basics the monkey uses the bab of all of the master's classes and then add the familiar's dex or strength bonus which ever is higher

You are only looking at half the rules there. Here let me quote it for you.

Familiar BaB wrote:


Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes.Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons. Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.

When it is using any weapon other then it's natural weapons it drops back down to using relevant stat it has from it's normal stats. In this case the strength of a 1/2 hd primate (str of 3 (-4 penalty).

Your monkey wielding that Fauchard is swinging at a -4 to hit and damage and that's IF it has the strength to lift this weapon.

Silver Crusade

Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
The ally's attack would be granted as an AoO as soon as the Butterfly Sting Crit was confirmed.
When Butterfly Sting says that you "forgo the effect of the critical hit." I interpret this as meaning you lose absolutely all of the effect, including triggering things like Seize the Moment. It is as if it just didn't happen at all.

I thought like you at first, but the triggers are clear : confirm a critical hit, and allies with the feat can perform an attack of opportunity. Confirming a critical hit =/= benefiting from it's effects. That's why in the same fashion, there is a feat allowing you to perform an AoO when "an enemy falls prone" within your range that stacks with Greater Trip, itself making an enemy "provoke when tripped".

Note that to transfer a critical hit, the ally must still hit the target, this is not an auto-hit. Considering each ally must possess the previous feats, I say being efficient is good for them if they are ready to act as a team and suck all the prerequisites to chain a critical hit combo.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:
So if I gave my tiny monkey a keen faucard one less attack but no aol.

Not quite, first as maximillius stated the monkey counts as his own ally so anytime he actually crits (and confirms) he will have to end his turn so you can attack otherwise he just passes that crit back to himself (for a net loss in damage).

Now if you burn the feats on yourself to get combat reflexes and sieze the moment then it COULD work out but you're burning a LOT of feats to rely on the attack bonus of a 2 HD who's to hit bonus is going to be ABYSMAL. (Remember the familiar improvements are based on the masters class levels that grant a familiar. So in your case that would be 1st level.
Now before anyone says take the eldritch heritage feat remember you're already 6 feats in the whole to make this trick even work at 7th level.

You might want to give it more thought whether it's worth it or not.

Did that change? because it says under familiar basics the monkey uses the bab of all of the master's classes and then add the familiar's dex or strength bonus which ever is higher

You are only looking at half the rules there. Here let me quote it for you.

Familiar BaB wrote:


Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes.Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons. Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.

When it is using any weapon other then it's natural weapons it drops back down to using relevant stat it has from it's normal stats. In this case the strength of a 1/2 hd primate (str of 3 (-4 penalty).

Your monkey wielding that Fauchard is swinging at a -4 to hit and damage and that's IF it has the strength to lift this weapon.

Mathwai, I think you're focusing on the wrong part of the sentence when it comes to the familiar's Attacks.

Here's how I read it:

Familiar BAB wrote:
Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons. Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.

The bolded part there comes first. You use the master's BAB, as calculated from all his classes, to determine the familiar's attack bonus for all attacks.

AFTER that, it talks about using either the Dex or Strength mod for calculating the attack bonus with natural weapons specifically. The first sentence there is on its own, and applies to all attacks by the familiar.

What I get out of this is that you use the master's BAB always, and usually for weapon attacks you use the familiar's Str mod. The familiar can get Weapon Finesse to change that. If the familiar's Dex mod is higher than its Str mod, it can use Dex to calculate attack bonus with its natural attacks WITHOUT having the Weapon Finesse feat.

Dark Archive

cartmanbeck wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:
So if I gave my tiny monkey a keen faucard one less attack but no aol.

Not quite, first as maximillius stated the monkey counts as his own ally so anytime he actually crits (and confirms) he will have to end his turn so you can attack otherwise he just passes that crit back to himself (for a net loss in damage).

Now if you burn the feats on yourself to get combat reflexes and sieze the moment then it COULD work out but you're burning a LOT of feats to rely on the attack bonus of a 2 HD who's to hit bonus is going to be ABYSMAL. (Remember the familiar improvements are based on the masters class levels that grant a familiar. So in your case that would be 1st level.
Now before anyone says take the eldritch heritage feat remember you're already 6 feats in the whole to make this trick even work at 7th level.

You might want to give it more thought whether it's worth it or not.

Did that change? because it says under familiar basics the monkey uses the bab of all of the master's classes and then add the familiar's dex or strength bonus which ever is higher

You are only looking at half the rules there. Here let me quote it for you.

Familiar BaB wrote:


Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes.Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons. Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.

When it is using any weapon other then it's natural weapons it drops back down to using relevant stat it has from it's normal stats. In this case the strength of a 1/2 hd primate (str of 3 (-4 penalty).

Your monkey wielding that Fauchard is swinging at a -4 to hit and damage and that's IF it has the strength to lift this weapon.

Mathwai, I think you're focusing on the wrong part of the sentence when it comes to the familiar's Attacks.

Here's how I read it:

Familiar BAB wrote:

Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons. Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.

The bolded part there comes first. You use the master's BAB, as calculated from all his classes, to determine the familiar's attack bonus for all attacks.

AFTER that, it talks about using either the Dex or Strength mod for calculating the attack bonus with natural weapons specifically. The first sentence there is on its own, and applies to all attacks by the familiar.

What I get out of this is that you use the master's BAB always, and usually for weapon attacks you use the familiar's Str mod. The familiar can get Weapon Finesse to change that. If the familiar's Dex mod is higher than its Str mod, it can use Dex to calculate attack bonus with its natural attacks WITHOUT having the Weapon Finesse feat.

...That's exactly what I just said. The monkey's attack bonus would be high but then it's decreased by it's strength penalty so it receives a -4 penalty on whatever weapon it uses to attack with.

In this specific case the monkey CANNOT use weapon finesse to offset this penalty (a fauchard is not a finessable weapon so he's stuck with his strength penalty significantly reducing his chance to hit and almost definitely negating his confirmation role if he does crit)

The real issue with this build is the monkey has such a low chance of hitting in the first place with the high crit chance weapons the OP needs to use (reach weapons) that this build while legal is not very effective at all.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
cartmanbeck wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:
So if I gave my tiny monkey a keen faucard one less attack but no aol.

Not quite, first as maximillius stated the monkey counts as his own ally so anytime he actually crits (and confirms) he will have to end his turn so you can attack otherwise he just passes that crit back to himself (for a net loss in damage).

Now if you burn the feats on yourself to get combat reflexes and sieze the moment then it COULD work out but you're burning a LOT of feats to rely on the attack bonus of a 2 HD who's to hit bonus is going to be ABYSMAL. (Remember the familiar improvements are based on the masters class levels that grant a familiar. So in your case that would be 1st level.
Now before anyone says take the eldritch heritage feat remember you're already 6 feats in the whole to make this trick even work at 7th level.

You might want to give it more thought whether it's worth it or not.

Did that change? because it says under familiar basics the monkey uses the bab of all of the master's classes and then add the familiar's dex or strength bonus which ever is higher

You are only looking at half the rules there. Here let me quote it for you.

Familiar BaB wrote:


Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes.Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons. Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.

When it is using any weapon other then it's natural weapons it drops back down to using relevant stat it has from it's normal stats. In this case the strength of a 1/2 hd primate (str of 3 (-4 penalty).

Your monkey wielding that Fauchard is swinging at a -4 to hit and damage and that's IF it has the strength to lift this weapon.
Mathwai, I think you're focusing on the wrong part of
...

Sorry, I misread your post, then. I thought you were saying that the monkey will ALWAYS have a -4 as an attack bonus, because it wouldn't get the master's full BAB added to its attacks with weapons. I see now what you're saying.


I will have to think through this some more.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Rogar Stonebow wrote:
I will have to think through this some more.

Your version should work just fine, provided you are willing to put Weapon Finesse on your monkey and give him a Keen, finesse-able weapon, such as the Rapier or Scimitar, in each paw. At your level, he'd be getting three attacks, at attack bonus +6/+6/+1 (+6 BAB, +2 Dex, -2 TWF). If any of those attacks crit (15-20) then he could forego the rest of his attacks to grant you the auto-crit on the next attack that you hit with. He could also instead take a five-foot step into another creature's square and try to get a crit on that creature with his remaining attacks.

Edit: I'd say the best way of making all this work is to have your monkey constantly use the Acrobatics skill to tumble into opponents' squares, that way he's not provoking attacks of opportunity every time. Once he's in the opponent's square, he could get off one attack that round (hopefully critting and giving you the auto-crit) and then the next round if the opponent doesn't move, he could full-attack, or if it does move he'd get an attack of opportunity, possibly giving you another crit.


Do improved familiars still use your BAB?


cartmanbeck wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:
I will have to think through this some more.

Your version should work just fine, provided you are willing to put Weapon Finesse on your monkey and give him a Keen, finesse-able weapon, such as the Rapier or Scimitar, in each paw. At your level, he'd be getting three attacks, at attack bonus +6/+6/+1 (+6 BAB, +2 Dex, -2 TWF). If any of those attacks crit (15-20) then he could forego the rest of his attacks to grant you the auto-crit on the next attack that you hit with. He could also instead take a five-foot step into another creature's square and try to get a crit on that creature with his remaining attacks.

Edit: I'd say the best way of making all this work is to have your monkey constantly use the Acrobatics skill to tumble into opponents' squares, that way he's not provoking attacks of opportunity every time. Once he's in the opponent's square, he could get off one attack that round (hopefully critting and giving you the auto-crit) and then the next round if the opponent doesn't move, he could full-attack, or if it does move he'd get an attack of opportunity, possibly giving you another crit.

Monkeys come with weapon finesse.

Dark Archive

How did your monkey qualify for Combat Expertise with 6 intellect?


Mergy wrote:
How did your monkey qualify for Combat Expertise with 6 intellect?

It doesn't this idea should go into the thread best combos that doesn't work.


Headband of intellect

Actually, the OP intent was to state that this was all hypothetical to begin with sense his character is level one!


Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Do improved familiars still use your BAB?

Any answers to this?


Take improved Familiar. Do it with an Imp or something. Tiny monkeys with weapons are highly silly.


Doomed Hero wrote:

Take improved Familiar. Do it with an Imp or something. Tiny monkeys
with weapons are highly silly.

unless your level 1 and your out damaging the fighter in melee!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You can do it with a Homunculus, and add the Weapon and Reach Construct Modifications. If you want, you can increase it's HD and add Modifications to wear him as a shield while it is still able to attack.

Dark Archive

blackbloodtroll wrote:
You can do it with a Homunculus, and add the Weapon and Reach Construct Modifications. If you want, you can increase it's HD and add Modifications to wear him as a shield while it is still able to attack.

No he can't, he only has 1 caster level and the rest is fighter. To get the homonculus he needs at least 7 spellcaster levels.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I meant later on.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
You can do it with a Homunculus, and add the Weapon and Reach Construct Modifications. If you want, you can increase it's HD and add Modifications to wear him as a shield while it is still able to attack.
No he can't, he only has 1 caster level and the rest is fighter. To get the homonculus he needs at least 7 spellcaster levels.

or the eldritch heritage feat so that my fighter levels count as levels as having a familiar -2

Dark Archive

Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
You can do it with a Homunculus, and add the Weapon and Reach Construct Modifications. If you want, you can increase it's HD and add Modifications to wear him as a shield while it is still able to attack.
No he can't, he only has 1 caster level and the rest is fighter. To get the homonculus he needs at least 7 spellcaster levels.
or the eldritch heritage feat so that my fighter levels count as levels as having a familiar -2

And at that point you are up to spending 9 feats to get this one trick to work. Seems a bit excessive.

Now with that said though with a Homonculus you don't need the witch level dip at all anymore. Since you can actually just BUY a homonculus and spend extra for more hit die (and the resulting feats that come with those HD) you could save all your own feats and do something else and STILL get the trick to work. Poorly but it would work.


Rogar Stonebow wrote:

Headband of intellect

Actually, the OP intent was to state that this was all hypothetical to begin with sense his character is level one!

Doesn't work unless your GM allows +7 or higher headbands. The Op has 1 level in class with familiar feature. The familiar's int is a 6, so you need a +7 just to qualify for combat expertise. Like I said this should go into the thread best combos that doesn't work.


Take two more Witch levels and select Alter Self as a spell known. Now change your monkey into a halfling or other humanoid to overcome issues with reach and such. Your familiar should also gain a little Int from this approach. Once the Int isn't important anymore you could try some Eldritch Knight levels if further spellcasting is desired.

You might be better off in some ways if you went with a familiar such as the raven or thrush which can speak a language since this would let it double as an "on demand" wand jockey.


Rogar Stonebow wrote:

Doomed Hero wrote:

Take improved Familiar. Do it with an Imp or something. Tiny monkeys
with weapons are highly silly.

unless your level 1 and your out damaging the fighter in melee!

I smell a badly built fighter, or maybe enemies who's ACs are too low.

Statistically, that monkey ought to be missing an awful lot.


Doomed Hero wrote:

Rogar Stonebow wrote:

Doomed Hero wrote:

Take improved Familiar. Do it with an Imp or something. Tiny monkeys
with weapons are highly silly.

unless your level 1 and your out damaging the fighter in melee!

I smell a badly built fighter, or maybe enemies who's ACs are too low.

Statistically, that monkey ought to be missing an awful lot.

this is a PFS game, and he is carrying a heavy crossbow (1d6 damage) He starts with a really decent dexterity, and he is always attacking from high ground conferring a plus one bonus as well. adding to his to hit is is size bonus to hit Plus 2 and he makes for great ranged shots

Liberty's Edge

Rogar Stonebow wrote:
So far, I have played 2 PFS games at level 1 with this char. and his monkey, and let me tell you. The monkey Has done more damage than the Martial characters so far... Albeit due to they have missed a lot, where as my monkey has rolled criticals in each game. I always have him climbing high and firing from higher ground to get that additional +1 to hit. Which has made a difference. However, he does attack every two rounds. Right now, he is currently equipped with a Heavy Crossbow, am thinking about equipping him with a repeating light crossbow, less damage per bolt, but, more attacks. And with the light repeating crossbow, he can make use of a high BAB.

Higher ground bonus only applies to melee attacks, not ranged.

Dark Archive

The big problem here is that as far as i can tell PFS doesn't allow familiars to wield manufactured weapons even if they're proficient.

Lantern Lodge

NECRO ALERT!!! AHH!!

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