paizo.com Recent Posts in butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeypaizo.com Recent Posts in butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkey2012-10-05T12:45:28Z2012-10-05T12:45:28ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyFrodoOf9Fingershttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#392014-04-29T18:24:57Z2014-04-29T18:24:57Z<p>NECRO ALERT!!! AHH!!</p>NECRO ALERT!!! AHH!!FrodoOf9Fingers2014-04-29T18:24:57ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyBenn Roe (alias of Benjamin Roe)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#382014-04-29T13:53:01Z2014-04-29T13:53:01Z<p>The big problem here is that as far as i can tell PFS doesn't allow familiars to wield manufactured weapons even if they're proficient.</p>The big problem here is that as far as i can tell PFS doesn't allow familiars to wield manufactured weapons even if they're proficient.Benn Roe (alias of Benjamin Roe)2014-04-29T13:53:01ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyLandrich Olstead (alias of Harrison Wise)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#372014-04-28T21:38:33Z2014-04-28T21:38:33Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rogar Stonebow wrote:</div><blockquote> So far, I have played 2 PFS games at level 1 with this char. and his monkey, and let me tell you. The monkey Has done more damage than the Martial characters so far... Albeit due to they have missed a lot, where as my monkey has rolled criticals in each game. I always have him climbing high and firing from higher ground to get that additional +1 to hit. Which has made a difference. However, he does attack every two rounds. Right now, he is currently equipped with a Heavy Crossbow, am thinking about equipping him with a repeating light crossbow, less damage per bolt, but, more attacks. And with the light repeating crossbow, he can make use of a high BAB. </blockquote><p>Higher ground bonus only applies to melee attacks, not ranged.Rogar Stonebow wrote:So far, I have played 2 PFS games at level 1 with this char. and his monkey, and let me tell you. The monkey Has done more damage than the Martial characters so far... Albeit due to they have missed a lot, where as my monkey has rolled criticals in each game. I always have him climbing high and firing from higher ground to get that additional +1 to hit. Which has made a difference. However, he does attack every two rounds. Right now, he is currently equipped with a Heavy...Landrich Olstead (alias of Harrison Wise)2014-04-28T21:38:33ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyRogar Stonebowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#362012-10-08T01:57:25Z2012-10-08T01:57:25Z<p>Doomed Hero wrote:</p>
<p>Rogar Stonebow wrote:</p>
<p>Doomed Hero wrote:</p>
<p>Take improved Familiar. Do it with an Imp or something. Tiny monkeys
<br />
with weapons are highly silly.</p>
<p>unless your level 1 and your out damaging the fighter in melee!</p>
<p>I smell a badly built fighter, or maybe enemies who's ACs are too low.</p>
<p>Statistically, that monkey ought to be missing an awful lot.</p>
<p>this is a PFS game, and he is carrying a heavy crossbow (1d6 damage) He starts with a really decent dexterity, and he is always attacking from high ground conferring a plus one bonus as well. adding to his to hit is is size bonus to hit Plus 2 and he makes for great ranged shots</p>Doomed Hero wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Take improved Familiar. Do it with an Imp or something. Tiny monkeys
with weapons are highly silly.
unless your level 1 and your out damaging the fighter in melee!
I smell a badly built fighter, or maybe enemies who's ACs are too low.
Statistically, that monkey ought to be missing an awful lot.
this is a PFS game, and he is carrying a heavy crossbow (1d6 damage) He starts with a really decent dexterity, and he is always...Rogar Stonebow2012-10-08T01:57:25ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyDoomed Herohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#352012-10-08T01:52:01Z2012-10-08T01:52:01Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rogar Stonebow wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Doomed Hero wrote:</p>
<p>Take improved Familiar. Do it with an Imp or something. Tiny monkeys
<br />
with weapons are highly silly.</p>
<p>unless your level 1 and your out damaging the fighter in melee! </blockquote><p>I smell a badly built fighter, or maybe enemies who's ACs are too low.
<p>Statistically, that monkey ought to be missing an awful lot.</p>Rogar Stonebow wrote:Doomed Hero wrote:
Take improved Familiar. Do it with an Imp or something. Tiny monkeys
with weapons are highly silly.
unless your level 1 and your out damaging the fighter in melee!
I smell a badly built fighter, or maybe enemies who's ACs are too low. Statistically, that monkey ought to be missing an awful lot.Doomed Hero2012-10-08T01:52:01ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyDevilkillerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#342012-10-07T12:46:53Z2012-10-07T12:46:53Z<p>Take two more Witch levels and select Alter Self as a spell known. Now change your monkey into a halfling or other humanoid to overcome issues with reach and such. Your familiar should also gain a little Int from this approach. Once the Int isn't important anymore you could try some Eldritch Knight levels if further spellcasting is desired.</p>
<p>You might be better off in some ways if you went with a familiar such as the raven or thrush which can speak a language since this would let it double as an "on demand" wand jockey.</p>Take two more Witch levels and select Alter Self as a spell known. Now change your monkey into a halfling or other humanoid to overcome issues with reach and such. Your familiar should also gain a little Int from this approach. Once the Int isn't important anymore you could try some Eldritch Knight levels if further spellcasting is desired.
You might be better off in some ways if you went with a familiar such as the raven or thrush which can speak a language since this would let it double as...Devilkiller2012-10-07T12:46:53ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyGignerehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#332012-10-06T17:31:40Z2012-10-06T17:31:40Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rogar Stonebow wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Headband of intellect</p>
<p>Actually, the OP intent was to state that this was all hypothetical to begin with sense his character is level one! </blockquote><p>Doesn't work unless your GM allows +7 or higher headbands. The Op has 1 level in class with familiar feature. The familiar's int is a 6, so you need a +7 just to qualify for combat expertise. Like I said this should go into the thread best combos that doesn't work.Rogar Stonebow wrote:Headband of intellect
Actually, the OP intent was to state that this was all hypothetical to begin with sense his character is level one!
Doesn't work unless your GM allows +7 or higher headbands. The Op has 1 level in class with familiar feature. The familiar's int is a 6, so you need a +7 just to qualify for combat expertise. Like I said this should go into the thread best combos that doesn't work.Gignere2012-10-06T17:31:40ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyMathwei ap Niallhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#322012-10-06T13:45:01Z2012-10-06T13:45:01Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rogar Stonebow wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Mathwei ap Niall wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">blackbloodtroll wrote:</div><blockquote> You can do it with a Homunculus, and add the Weapon and Reach Construct Modifications. If you want, you can increase it's HD and add Modifications to wear him as a shield while it is still able to attack. </blockquote>No he can't, he only has 1 caster level and the rest is fighter. To get the homonculus he needs at least 7 spellcaster levels. </blockquote>or the eldritch heritage feat so that my fighter levels count as levels as having a familiar -2 </blockquote><p>And at that point you are up to spending 9 feats to get this one trick to work. Seems a bit excessive.
<p>Now with that said though with a Homonculus you don't need the witch level dip at all anymore. Since you can actually just <b>BUY</b> a homonculus and spend extra for more hit die (and the resulting feats that come with those HD) you could save all your own feats and do something else and STILL get the trick to work. Poorly but it would work.</p>Rogar Stonebow wrote:Mathwei ap Niall wrote: blackbloodtroll wrote: You can do it with a Homunculus, and add the Weapon and Reach Construct Modifications. If you want, you can increase it's HD and add Modifications to wear him as a shield while it is still able to attack.
No he can't, he only has 1 caster level and the rest is fighter. To get the homonculus he needs at least 7 spellcaster levels. or the eldritch heritage feat so that my fighter levels count as levels as having a familiar -2...Mathwei ap Niall2012-10-06T13:45:01ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyRogar Stonebowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#312012-10-06T13:07:00Z2012-10-06T13:07:00Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mathwei ap Niall wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">blackbloodtroll wrote:</div><blockquote> You can do it with a Homunculus, and add the Weapon and Reach Construct Modifications. If you want, you can increase it's HD and add Modifications to wear him as a shield while it is still able to attack. </blockquote>No he can't, he only has 1 caster level and the rest is fighter. To get the homonculus he needs at least 7 spellcaster levels. </blockquote><p>or the eldritch heritage feat so that my fighter levels count as levels as having a familiar -2Mathwei ap Niall wrote:blackbloodtroll wrote: You can do it with a Homunculus, and add the Weapon and Reach Construct Modifications. If you want, you can increase it's HD and add Modifications to wear him as a shield while it is still able to attack.
No he can't, he only has 1 caster level and the rest is fighter. To get the homonculus he needs at least 7 spellcaster levels. or the eldritch heritage feat so that my fighter levels count as levels as having a familiar -2Rogar Stonebow2012-10-06T13:07:00ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyblackbloodtrollhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#302012-10-06T01:16:12Z2012-10-06T01:16:12Z<p>I meant later on.</p>I meant later on.blackbloodtroll2012-10-06T01:16:12ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyMathwei ap Niallhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#292012-10-06T01:10:52Z2012-10-06T01:10:52Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">blackbloodtroll wrote:</div><blockquote> You can do it with a Homunculus, and add the Weapon and Reach Construct Modifications. If you want, you can increase it's HD and add Modifications to wear him as a shield while it is still able to attack. </blockquote><p>No he can't, he only has 1 caster level and the rest is fighter. To get the homonculus he needs at least 7 spellcaster levels.blackbloodtroll wrote:You can do it with a Homunculus, and add the Weapon and Reach Construct Modifications. If you want, you can increase it's HD and add Modifications to wear him as a shield while it is still able to attack.
No he can't, he only has 1 caster level and the rest is fighter. To get the homonculus he needs at least 7 spellcaster levels.Mathwei ap Niall2012-10-06T01:10:52ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyblackbloodtrollhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#282012-10-05T23:42:03Z2012-10-05T23:42:03Z<p>You can do it with a Homunculus, and add the Weapon and Reach Construct Modifications. If you want, you can increase it's HD and add Modifications to wear him as a shield while it is still able to attack.</p>You can do it with a Homunculus, and add the Weapon and Reach Construct Modifications. If you want, you can increase it's HD and add Modifications to wear him as a shield while it is still able to attack.blackbloodtroll2012-10-05T23:42:03ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyRogar Stonebowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#272012-10-05T22:35:44Z2012-10-05T22:35:44Z<p>Doomed Hero wrote:</p>
<p>Take improved Familiar. Do it with an Imp or something. Tiny monkeys
<br />
with weapons are highly silly.</p>
<p>unless your level 1 and your out damaging the fighter in melee!</p>Doomed Hero wrote:
Take improved Familiar. Do it with an Imp or something. Tiny monkeys
with weapons are highly silly.
unless your level 1 and your out damaging the fighter in melee!Rogar Stonebow2012-10-05T22:35:44ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyDoomed Herohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#262012-10-05T19:40:29Z2012-10-05T19:40:29Z<p>Take improved Familiar. Do it with an Imp or something. Tiny monkeys with weapons are highly silly.</p>Take improved Familiar. Do it with an Imp or something. Tiny monkeys with weapons are highly silly.Doomed Hero2012-10-05T19:40:29ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyRogar Stonebowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#252012-10-05T19:37:51Z2012-10-05T19:37:51Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rogar Stonebow wrote:</div><blockquote> Do improved familiars still use your BAB? </blockquote><p>Any answers to this?Rogar Stonebow wrote:Do improved familiars still use your BAB?
Any answers to this?Rogar Stonebow2012-10-05T19:37:51ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyRogar Stonebowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#242012-10-05T19:33:38Z2012-10-05T19:33:38Z<p>Headband of intellect</p>
<p>Actually, the OP intent was to state that this was all hypothetical to begin with sense his character is level one!</p>Headband of intellect
Actually, the OP intent was to state that this was all hypothetical to begin with sense his character is level one!Rogar Stonebow2012-10-05T19:33:38ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyGignerehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#232012-10-05T18:26:24Z2012-10-05T18:26:24Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mergy wrote:</div><blockquote> How did your monkey qualify for Combat Expertise with 6 intellect? </blockquote><p>It doesn't this idea should go into the thread best combos that doesn't work.Mergy wrote:How did your monkey qualify for Combat Expertise with 6 intellect?
It doesn't this idea should go into the thread best combos that doesn't work.Gignere2012-10-05T18:26:24ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyMergyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#222012-10-05T18:16:25Z2012-10-05T18:16:25Z<p>How did your monkey qualify for Combat Expertise with 6 intellect?</p>How did your monkey qualify for Combat Expertise with 6 intellect?Mergy2012-10-05T18:16:25ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyRogar Stonebowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#212012-10-05T17:30:28Z2012-10-05T17:30:28Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">cartmanbeck wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Rogar Stonebow wrote:</div><blockquote> I will have to think through this some more. </blockquote><p>Your version should work just fine, provided you are willing to put Weapon Finesse on your monkey and give him a Keen, finesse-able weapon, such as the Rapier or Scimitar, in each paw. At your level, he'd be getting three attacks, at attack bonus +6/+6/+1 (+6 BAB, +2 Dex, -2 TWF). If any of those attacks crit (15-20) then he could forego the rest of his attacks to grant you the auto-crit on the next attack that you hit with. He could also instead take a five-foot step into another creature's square and try to get a crit on that creature with his remaining attacks.
<p>Edit: I'd say the best way of making all this work is to have your monkey constantly use the Acrobatics skill to tumble into opponents' squares, that way he's not provoking attacks of opportunity every time. Once he's in the opponent's square, he could get off one attack that round (hopefully critting and giving you the auto-crit) and then the next round if the opponent doesn't move, he could full-attack, or if it does move he'd get an attack of opportunity, possibly giving you another crit. </blockquote><p>Monkeys come with weapon finesse.cartmanbeck wrote:Rogar Stonebow wrote: I will have to think through this some more.
Your version should work just fine, provided you are willing to put Weapon Finesse on your monkey and give him a Keen, finesse-able weapon, such as the Rapier or Scimitar, in each paw. At your level, he'd be getting three attacks, at attack bonus +6/+6/+1 (+6 BAB, +2 Dex, -2 TWF). If any of those attacks crit (15-20) then he could forego the rest of his attacks to grant you the auto-crit on the next attack...Rogar Stonebow2012-10-05T17:30:28ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyRogar Stonebowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#202012-10-05T17:27:56Z2012-10-05T17:27:56Z<p>Do improved familiars still use your BAB?</p>Do improved familiars still use your BAB?Rogar Stonebow2012-10-05T17:27:56ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeycartmanbeck (RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#192012-10-05T17:11:07Z2012-10-05T17:11:07Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rogar Stonebow wrote:</div><blockquote> I will have to think through this some more. </blockquote><p>Your version should work just fine, provided you are willing to put Weapon Finesse on your monkey and give him a Keen, finesse-able weapon, such as the Rapier or Scimitar, in each paw. At your level, he'd be getting three attacks, at attack bonus +6/+6/+1 (+6 BAB, +2 Dex, -2 TWF). If any of those attacks crit (15-20) then he could forego the rest of his attacks to grant you the auto-crit on the next attack that you hit with. He could also instead take a five-foot step into another creature's square and try to get a crit on that creature with his remaining attacks.
<p>Edit: I'd say the best way of making all this work is to have your monkey constantly use the Acrobatics skill to tumble into opponents' squares, that way he's not provoking attacks of opportunity every time. Once he's in the opponent's square, he could get off one attack that round (hopefully critting and giving you the auto-crit) and then the next round if the opponent doesn't move, he could full-attack, or if it does move he'd get an attack of opportunity, possibly giving you another crit.</p>Rogar Stonebow wrote:I will have to think through this some more.
Your version should work just fine, provided you are willing to put Weapon Finesse on your monkey and give him a Keen, finesse-able weapon, such as the Rapier or Scimitar, in each paw. At your level, he'd be getting three attacks, at attack bonus +6/+6/+1 (+6 BAB, +2 Dex, -2 TWF). If any of those attacks crit (15-20) then he could forego the rest of his attacks to grant you the auto-crit on the next attack that you hit with....cartmanbeck (RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16)2012-10-05T17:11:07ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyRogar Stonebowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#182012-10-05T16:50:10Z2012-10-05T16:50:10Z<p>I will have to think through this some more.</p>I will have to think through this some more.Rogar Stonebow2012-10-05T16:50:10ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeycartmanbeck (RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#172012-10-05T16:37:14Z2012-10-05T16:37:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mathwei ap Niall wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">cartmanbeck wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Mathwei ap Niall wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Rogar Stonebow wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Mathwei ap Niall wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Rogar Stonebow wrote:</div><blockquote> So if I gave my tiny monkey a keen faucard one less attack but no aol. </blockquote><p>Not quite, first as maximillius stated the monkey counts as his own ally so anytime he actually crits (and confirms) he will have to end his turn so you can attack otherwise he just passes that crit back to himself (for a net loss in damage).
</p>
Now if you burn the feats on yourself to get combat reflexes and sieze the moment then it COULD work out but you're burning a LOT of feats to rely on the attack bonus of a 2 HD who's to hit bonus is going to be ABYSMAL. (Remember the familiar improvements are based on the masters class levels <b>that grant a familiar</b>. So in your case that would be 1st level.
<br />
Now before anyone says take the eldritch heritage feat remember you're already 6 feats in the whole to make this trick even work at 7th level. </p>
<p>You might want to give it more thought whether it's worth it or not. </blockquote>Did that change? because it says under familiar basics the monkey uses the bab of all of the master's classes and then add the familiar's dex or strength bonus which ever is higher </blockquote><p>You are only looking at half the rules there. Here let me quote it for you.
</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Familiar BaB wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes.Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, <b>to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons.</b> Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.</blockquote><p>When it is using any weapon other then it's natural weapons it drops back down to using relevant stat it has from it's normal stats. In this case the strength of a 1/2 hd primate (str of 3 (-4 penalty).
</p>
Your monkey wielding that Fauchard is swinging at a -4 to hit and damage and that's IF it has the strength to lift this weapon. </blockquote>Mathwai, I think you're focusing on the wrong part of</blockquote>... </blockquote><p>Sorry, I misread your post, then. I thought you were saying that the monkey will ALWAYS have a -4 as an attack bonus, because it wouldn't get the master's full BAB added to its attacks with weapons. I see now what you're saying.Mathwei ap Niall wrote:cartmanbeck wrote: Mathwei ap Niall wrote: Rogar Stonebow wrote: Mathwei ap Niall wrote: Rogar Stonebow wrote: So if I gave my tiny monkey a keen faucard one less attack but no aol.
Not quite, first as maximillius stated the monkey counts as his own ally so anytime he actually crits (and confirms) he will have to end his turn so you can attack otherwise he just passes that crit back to himself (for a net loss in damage).
Now if you burn the feats on yourself to get...cartmanbeck (RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16)2012-10-05T16:37:14ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeyMathwei ap Niallhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#162012-10-05T16:24:17Z2012-10-05T16:24:17Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">cartmanbeck wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Mathwei ap Niall wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Rogar Stonebow wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Mathwei ap Niall wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Rogar Stonebow wrote:</div><blockquote> So if I gave my tiny monkey a keen faucard one less attack but no aol. </blockquote><p>Not quite, first as maximillius stated the monkey counts as his own ally so anytime he actually crits (and confirms) he will have to end his turn so you can attack otherwise he just passes that crit back to himself (for a net loss in damage).
</p>
Now if you burn the feats on yourself to get combat reflexes and sieze the moment then it COULD work out but you're burning a LOT of feats to rely on the attack bonus of a 2 HD who's to hit bonus is going to be ABYSMAL. (Remember the familiar improvements are based on the masters class levels <b>that grant a familiar</b>. So in your case that would be 1st level.
<br />
Now before anyone says take the eldritch heritage feat remember you're already 6 feats in the whole to make this trick even work at 7th level. </p>
<p>You might want to give it more thought whether it's worth it or not. </blockquote>Did that change? because it says under familiar basics the monkey uses the bab of all of the master's classes and then add the familiar's dex or strength bonus which ever is higher </blockquote><p>You are only looking at half the rules there. Here let me quote it for you.
</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Familiar BaB wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes.Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, <b>to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons.</b> Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.</blockquote><p>When it is using any weapon other then it's natural weapons it drops back down to using relevant stat it has from it's normal stats. In this case the strength of a 1/2 hd primate (str of 3 (-4 penalty).
</p>
Your monkey wielding that Fauchard is swinging at a -4 to hit and damage and that's IF it has the strength to lift this weapon. </blockquote><p>Mathwai, I think you're focusing on the wrong part of the sentence when it comes to the familiar's Attacks.
</p>
Here's how I read it:</p>
<p>Familiar BAB wrote:</p>
<p>Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons. Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind. </p>
<p>The bolded part there comes first. You use the master's BAB, as calculated from all his classes, to determine the familiar's attack bonus for all attacks.</p>
<p>AFTER that, it talks about using either the Dex or Strength mod for calculating the attack bonus with natural weapons specifically. The first sentence there is on its own, and applies to all attacks by the familiar.</p>
<p>What I get out of this is that you use the master's BAB always, and usually for weapon attacks you use the familiar's Str mod. The familiar can get Weapon Finesse to change that. If the familiar's Dex mod is higher than its Str mod, it can use Dex to calculate attack bonus with its natural attacks WITHOUT having the Weapon Finesse feat.</blockquote><p>...That's exactly what I just said. The monkey's attack bonus would be high but then it's decreased by it's strength penalty so it receives a -4 penalty on whatever weapon it uses to attack with.
<p>In this specific case the monkey CANNOT use weapon finesse to offset this penalty (a fauchard is not a finessable weapon so he's stuck with his strength penalty significantly reducing his chance to hit and almost definitely negating his confirmation role if he does crit)</p>
<p>The real issue with this build is the monkey has such a low chance of hitting in the first place with the high crit chance weapons the OP needs to use (reach weapons) that this build while legal is not very effective at all.</p>cartmanbeck wrote:Mathwei ap Niall wrote: Rogar Stonebow wrote: Mathwei ap Niall wrote: Rogar Stonebow wrote: So if I gave my tiny monkey a keen faucard one less attack but no aol.
Not quite, first as maximillius stated the monkey counts as his own ally so anytime he actually crits (and confirms) he will have to end his turn so you can attack otherwise he just passes that crit back to himself (for a net loss in damage).
Now if you burn the feats on yourself to get combat reflexes and sieze...Mathwei ap Niall2012-10-05T16:24:17ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: butterfly sting, high BAB, keen scimitar, beast-bonded witch, monkeycartmanbeck (RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ozfd?butterfly-sting-high-BAB-keen-scimitar#152012-10-05T16:11:25Z2012-10-05T16:11:25Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mathwei ap Niall wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Rogar Stonebow wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Mathwei ap Niall wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Rogar Stonebow wrote:</div><blockquote> So if I gave my tiny monkey a keen faucard one less attack but no aol. </blockquote><p>Not quite, first as maximillius stated the monkey counts as his own ally so anytime he actually crits (and confirms) he will have to end his turn so you can attack otherwise he just passes that crit back to himself (for a net loss in damage).
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Now if you burn the feats on yourself to get combat reflexes and sieze the moment then it COULD work out but you're burning a LOT of feats to rely on the attack bonus of a 2 HD who's to hit bonus is going to be ABYSMAL. (Remember the familiar improvements are based on the masters class levels <b>that grant a familiar</b>. So in your case that would be 1st level.
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Now before anyone says take the eldritch heritage feat remember you're already 6 feats in the whole to make this trick even work at 7th level. </p>
<p>You might want to give it more thought whether it's worth it or not. </blockquote>Did that change? because it says under familiar basics the monkey uses the bab of all of the master's classes and then add the familiar's dex or strength bonus which ever is higher </blockquote><p>You are only looking at half the rules there. Here let me quote it for you.
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<div class="messageboard-quotee">Familiar BaB wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
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Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes.Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, <b>to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons.</b> Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.</blockquote><p>When it is using any weapon other then it's natural weapons it drops back down to using relevant stat it has from it's normal stats. In this case the strength of a 1/2 hd primate (str of 3 (-4 penalty).
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Your monkey wielding that Fauchard is swinging at a -4 to hit and damage and that's IF it has the strength to lift this weapon. </blockquote><p>Mathwai, I think you're focusing on the wrong part of the sentence when it comes to the familiar's Attacks.
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Here's how I read it:</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Familiar BAB wrote:</div><blockquote> Attacks: <b>Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. </b> Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons. Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind. </blockquote><p>The bolded part there comes first. You use the master's BAB, as calculated from all his classes, to determine the familiar's attack bonus for all attacks.
<p>AFTER that, it talks about using either the Dex or Strength mod for calculating the attack bonus with natural weapons specifically. The first sentence there is on its own, and applies to all attacks by the familiar.</p>
<p>What I get out of this is that you use the master's BAB always, and usually for weapon attacks you use the familiar's Str mod. The familiar can get Weapon Finesse to change that. If the familiar's Dex mod is higher than its Str mod, it can use Dex to calculate attack bonus with its natural attacks WITHOUT having the Weapon Finesse feat.</p>Mathwei ap Niall wrote:Rogar Stonebow wrote: Mathwei ap Niall wrote: Rogar Stonebow wrote: So if I gave my tiny monkey a keen faucard one less attack but no aol.
Not quite, first as maximillius stated the monkey counts as his own ally so anytime he actually crits (and confirms) he will have to end his turn so you can attack otherwise he just passes that crit back to himself (for a net loss in damage).
Now if you burn the feats on yourself to get combat reflexes and sieze the moment then it...cartmanbeck (RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16)2012-10-05T16:11:25Z