|
If there is a character in PFS who cannot speak, how would he go about communicating with fellow players? In a home game I would simply allow everyone to take a rank of Linguistics to learn some sort of sign language, but that falls apart in PFS because 1) There is no 'official' sign language listed in the books, and 2) You are likely to play with a different group of people each time. This causes a lot of problems because communication is key in most games.
I suppose you could write out messages to other players, but this is very much not an option in the heat of combat. You could also say that this is just a penalty that players have to deal with, but that seems unrealistic considering how many alternate forms of communication there are in the real world. I believe it is even mentioned somewhere that the Pathfinders even have there own hand signs; but as this isn't an actual language, can we learn to speak it(and moreover, would party companions speak it?)
If there is a character in PFS who cannot speak, how would he go about communicating with fellow players? In a home game I would simply allow everyone to take a rank of Linguistics to learn some sort of sign language, but that falls apart in PFS because 1) There is no 'official' sign language listed in the books, and 2) You are likely to play with a different group of people each time. This causes a lot of problems because communication is key in most games.
PFS allows "lip reading" as a language as a campaign house rule. That may not help with a mute character, though.
|
|
A point in linguistics allows you to read lips for deaf characters in PFS instead of taking a language. The source of that is one of the FAQ.
For mute characters, not being able to communicate (via Vow of Silence or whatever), I mean, not being able to speak is simply a hindrance. In battle, you could probably get around it with some sort of telepathic communication if it's possible for that character.
I'm unaware of any sort of sign language in PFS, but of course people can make up hand signals.
|
|
If there is a character in PFS who cannot speak, how would he go about communicating with fellow players? In a home game I would simply allow everyone to take a rank of Linguistics to learn some sort of sign language, but that falls apart in PFS because 1) There is no 'official' sign language listed in the books, and 2) You are likely to play with a different group of people each time. This causes a lot of problems because communication is key in most games.PFS allows "lip reading" as a language as a campaign house rule. That may not help with a mute character, though.
Hmm.... I missed that. Useful. Very useful. So, a deaf character can read lips, but could they then speak? I people who are deaf in real-life have a very difficult time speaking(because they can't hear themselves) but does that apply in PFS?
Slate and chalk. All fixed for a few coppers.
|
|
Another vote for slate and chalk. We got a player locally whose character had his tongue cut off. They both (the player and the character) carry around a mini whiteboard with dryerase to use at the table.
I really like the whiteboard/dry erase thing. Don't think it's all that effective in-combat, but I suppose that's not critical if you do enough preparation beforehand.
|
Another vote for slate and chalk. We got a player locally whose character had his tongue cut off. They both (the player and the character) carry around a mini whiteboard with dryerase to use at the table.
and Pathfinder Agent Wiley E. Coyote is born (Kitsune would probably be the closest match, Vulpine to Canine and all that jazz).
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I play a Deaf Oracle (who was born deaf, so she also can't speak) who carries around chalk and a chalkboard in-game. Out of game, I bring a white board/pens/erasers to communicate. She also has a rank in Linguistics for lipreading so understanding others usually isn't a problem for her. It's especially hilarious because she has a fairly high Diplomacy and often ends up making Diplomacy checks, and when so, I write out a message on the board and surround it with hearts, flowers, smiley faces, etc. based on how well I rolled.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There's a trait, Signaler (Molthune)P
Source Inner Sea Primer 13
By watching Imperial troops, you know how to use flags, smoke signals, and other methods to send secret messages, and gain a +5 trait bonus on Bluff checks to receive secret messages and a +5 trait bonus on Sense Motive checks to intercept messages.
Carry around a set of hand flags. Perform "Wuthering Heights" in Semaphore.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Given that a good deal of diplomacy rides on expressive speech, I have a real problem with you making those checks without an effective voice. Quite frankly I'd insist on a fairly heavy penalty, something at least on the order of -10 to -12 where verbal communication is a factor.
In the case of a deaf mute I'd double the penalties or simply rule it impossible.
That's a pretty severe penalty, especially given the following:
Fail- If you fail the check by 4 or less, the character’s attitude toward you is unchanged. If you fail by 5 or more, the character’s attitude toward you is decreased by one step.
Using the above adjustment, deaf and/or mute characters are twice as likely to be outright attacked when they attempt negotiations! So much for people having pity on the disabled.
Regardless, you are correct. I am thinking about making a deaf character in PFS, specifically an Oracle with the Deaf curse. I know that this will be challenging, but that is why I am looking for ways to help mitigate the penalties so as to not harm the party. I do realize that I will be suffering penalties, and I certainly don't expect to be able to ignore my curse if I bring paper and a pen to the table. Still, this is something I am interested in doing, and I feel I should be able to pull it off if I handle this correctly.
If there happens to be a Bard in the party who uses Perform(Sing) or Perform(Oratory) for Bardic Performance (Inspire Courage), won't this deaf Oracle miss out on the bonuses ?
|
|
If there happens to be a Bard in the party who uses Perform(Sing) or Perform(Oratory) for Bardic Performance (Inspire Courage), won't this deaf Oracle miss out on the bonuses ?
Yes. That is one of the penalties such a character would face. I guess it's a good thing that I am the only one with a Bard character in my region, though I guess I can still miss out if I go to a convention.
Probably doesn't work RAW but it would be cool to have a parrot or raven familiar that talked for you.
Making others learn to read lips, using a sign language or having telepathy would all be options, I'd think.
You could also use Sound-based spells to communicate, perhaps. I forgot which spells I had in mind. I think one was Ghost Sound.
|
Another vote for slate and chalk. We got a player locally whose character had his tongue cut off. They both (the player and the character) carry around a mini whiteboard with dryerase to use at the table.and Pathfinder Agent Wiley E. Coyote is born (Kitsune would probably be the closest match, Vulpine to Canine and all that jazz).
Pff Rakshaska heritage tieflings!
|
|
If a deaf/mute is the one making the diplo checks, there would have to be a penalty ... I think Lazer's penalty may be a bit high but to each their own. The chalkboard and chalk is probably the best idea, and an effective way of communicating to your party memebers. I'd have a hard time as a judge with the whole chalkboard diplo communication with NPCs though.
Spells being generally of the spoken variety wouldn't work either imo
I had my fill of "telepathic deaf mutes" on WOW RP servers, thank you very much. Besides that's not an option for Society play.Making others learn to read lips, using a sign language or having telepathy would all be options, I'd think.
You can get Telepathy with spells. Some creatures are naturally telepathic.
I fail to see why you needed to so aggressively drive your point about penalizing character concepts.
You know, we aren't all forced to run the game like you are.
Could you stop pretending that we are? It's starting to feel silly.
I was talking more about spells. Also goes to show how well you read my posts.
You can give RP penalties that can escalate into hard number penalties, not just one or the other.
The fact that an Oracle gets a penalty from his/her class is different from a character who is missing an eye because the player wants to be Tange Sazen. If it can work in GURPS (an awesome and underrated game system) with just a minor penalty, then it sure as hell should work just as fine in D&D / Pathfinder.
|
|
If there happens to be a Bard in the party who uses Perform(Sing) or Perform(Oratory) for Bardic Performance (Inspire Courage), won't this deaf Oracle miss out on the bonuses ?Yes. That is one of the penalties such a character would face. I guess it's a good thing that I am the only one with a Bard character in my region, though I guess I can still miss out if I go to a convention.
This is a pretty common misconception. A bard doing inspire courage can choose to inspire verbally or visually. This choice is not tied to the Perform (X) skill they have. (At least, not by RAW)
It matters for other types of Bardic Performance (such as Countersong) that require Perform Skill checks, but not inspire courage.
If the Oracle can see him and he is doing a visual performance, he would still get it.
|
|
This is of course dependent on the Bard specifying an appropriate performance. Many Bards use vocal performance because it allows them to melee.
Would you point out where visual components prevents melee combat?
If a bardic performance has a visual component, the targets must have line of sight to the bard for the performance to have any effect. A blind bard has a 50% chance to fail when attempting to use a bardic performance with a visual component. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Blind creatures are immune to bardic performances with visual components.
Nothing there about preventing melee attacks?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just to add my 2 cents.
I agree that some penalties should be involved. At most though they should be the -2 circumstance.
One thing to note though is that in order for the deaf/mute to even be able to use diplomacy by RAW that the gm must determine if the NPC can even understand the deaf/mute character.
Which is probably a worse penalty then any modifier because I haven't seen a NPC in PFS that has read lips as a language.
So then it falls on the deaf/mute character to have to write out everything as I assume NPC's that share a language are assumed to be able to read. Writing every thing out will probably cause time problems that may prevent diplomacy in some time critical situations.
If a deaf/mute character jumps through those communication hoops and the NPC understands them, then really anything more than the normal penalty or bonus for roleplaying is way too much. But the hoops must be jumped through first.
Just my thought.
|
|
This is of course dependent on the Bard specifying an appropriate performance. Many Bards use vocal performance because it allows them to melee.Would you point out where visual components prevents melee combat?
If a bardic performance has a visual component, the targets must have line of sight to the bard for the performance to have any effect. A blind bard has a 50% chance to fail when attempting to use a bardic performance with a visual component. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Blind creatures are immune to bardic performances with visual components.Nothing there about preventing melee attacks?
Usually if it's a visual performance it means the bard is dancing or otherwise doing something physicial to "inspire" the other party members. I think it would be hard to dance and still swing a sword and there would be penalities at my table for one who tried to be honest.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What are these visual components? Sounds to me that involves a lot of hand and arm gestures. It has to be a performance and strikingly visual, something more than just raising eyebrows.
Clearly, you've never seen what I can do with my eyebrows.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Usually if it's a visual performance it means the bard is dancing or otherwise doing something physicial to "inspire" the other party members. I think it would be hard to dance and still swing a sword and there would be penalities at my table for one who tried to be honest.
Sure, but this is the PFS boards, and by RAW nothing supports that. Can I shoot a bow then? Can I cast a spell with somatic components? Would you penalize me when I cast a spell with verbal components while inspiring with verbal components? What if I had the Spellsong feat?
What about if I was tap-dancing? That pretty much only affects my feet, so my arms should be totally free to swing a sword. I could be belly-dancing between deflecting swords and parrying. Just like a lot of things in Pathfinder, its a game with MAGIC and SORCERY. Some things just work.
I have always thought that a Bard dancing in melee just uses his dance as part of combat, which actually inspired a whole archetype and feat (Dervish Dance)! A Bard's MAIN JOB is to use Bardic Performance to the party's benefits. Gimping this ability is pretty much declining the bard of their main class feature.
|
|
Usually if it's a visual performance it means the bard is dancing or otherwise doing something physicial to "inspire" the other party members. I think it would be hard to dance and still swing a sword and there would be penalities at my table for one who tried to be honest.This is of course dependent on the Bard specifying an appropriate performance. Many Bards use vocal performance because it allows them to melee.Would you point out where visual components prevents melee combat?
If a bardic performance has a visual component, the targets must have line of sight to the bard for the performance to have any effect. A blind bard has a 50% chance to fail when attempting to use a bardic performance with a visual component. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Blind creatures are immune to bardic performances with visual components.Nothing there about preventing melee attacks?
To be honest, IF you apply a circumstance penalty, make sure it is warranted, first.
Would you penalize a Perform: Dance skill used to Inspire Competence? Especially if the Bard also had the Dervish Dance feat, which, explicitly, is used to transform one's ability to dance into combat moves?
@LazarX: Take a few steps back, and consider what you are saying. Right now, you are coming off as a competitive GM, not as the enabler you should be for PFS. Understandably, you are really ticked off by someone coming up with a less than easy RP concept. Remember that, for the most part, you are limited to applying circumstance modifiers, not just an out-and-out "Attack the ugly Pathfinder!" because you find the concept "unplayable".
Do you also run more penalties in on an Oracle with the Tongues curse, than them having limited communications during combat? And, do you still apply penalties if they have teammates who actually speak the same language that the Oracle uses? Or do you force the Oracle to use a language no one on their team knows?
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What are these visual components? Sounds to me that involves a lot of hand and arm gestures. It has to be a performance and strikingly visual, something more than just raising eyebrows.
Seriously though, being a strikingly visual performance doesn't mean it prevents you from fighting. Perhaps you fight with a stunning grace that turns your combat into a deadly ballet. Perhaps you radiate so much confidence that you make it look like you're toying with your prey.
Point is, this is Pathfinder, not 3.5. Bards can fight and Inspire.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If an Oracle has the Haunted Curse and there are loose objects around, I generally impose a -2 to -5 penalty... especially in a china shop.
Wasting comes with it's own built in penalties but an area that's suffered a lot of undead attacks may have situaitional penalties on top of that. Anything like Wolfscarred that gives you a freaky or monstrous appearance is going to level at least a -4 from me as well.
If you imposed those on me, I'd be leaving your table and having a word with the event organizer.
If the ability itself does not say that it gives a penalty to a skill (such as the Oracle Wasting Curse), you should NOT be automatically just be imposing penalties on rolls just cause you feel it is justified.