In case of Create Pit, break glass


Advice

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

What should a PC (who has neither a climb speed nor the ability to cast spider climb) do to be ready for create pit, or a similar circumstance?

What's the cheapest solution? What's the preferred solution?

My PFS PCs all carry rope anyway, but usually if you need to climb, there's time to get things set up and whatnot. Except now (finally) NPCs are starting to cast non-CRB spells, such as create pit. So when time is of the essence, what do you do at the bottom of the pit?

Grappling hook?
Is there a spell that can get a non-wizard/sorcerer out?
Should clerics/bards just stand at the bottom and cast buff spells every round so that when the duration expires they can exact vengeance on the enemy?


Potions/scrolls of blink or fly? Or are they too low level/too poor for that?

Buff and wait tactic isn't bad unless the enemies are at the top of the pit pelting you with arrows.

Collapsible ladder?

Ring of jumping?


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

stop sucking and play a monk

(just kidding, but it felt so good to be able to say something in defense of a monk here)

Potions of jump are dirt cheap, but take some time to use (though they have enough duration to last if the opponent casts the same spell again).

With scouts, i always keep a potion of spider climb nearby, and if you know you're going up against someone who might use the spell you can drink it before the fight with quite a large margin. And really, spider climb is useful in many situation so why not?

Silver Crusade

A problem you may run into is that a spell pit (a la create pit) is an extradimensional space, and if you keep your solution is a handy haversack/bag of holding, it will be inaccessible. Feather token (tree) may be the way to go as far as something you can quickly deploy and climb.


Jiggy wrote:
What should a PC (who has neither a climb speed nor the ability to cast spider climb) do to be ready for create pit, or a similar circumstance?

This is a really specific situation. I cannot imagine there are many similar circumstance other than a pit trap.

I will presume really low levels as their are potion of spider climb that do the work (300 G). Have one or more PC's designated to carry pre-knotted ropes attached to grappling hooks. These PC's should be capable of making a ranged attack versus AC 9 (The AC for a grappling hook to catch -4 for being 30 feet deep), and should be able and willing to use his round putting it in place for others if he is not at the bottom of said pit. This will cost someone a round, but it creates a DC 0 climb check for all those at the bottom. DC 5 to climb at half speed. The best part is, it works for any number of people in the pit. Presuming Silk Rope, 11 G per person and 9 Pounds. That's just my two copper though.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Great suggestions so far, now let's analyze them!

Potion of fly: At first I was worried that the DC 20 Fly check to move up sharply would be an issue, but if you spiral (you can turn up to 45 degrees without a check by sacrificing 5ft of movement) you could make some progress and be out in a couple of rounds. Nice idea!

Potion of jump: +10 to a 20-30ft vertical jump without a running start (DC 160 for 20ft, DC 240 for 30ft) doesn't seem to be much help. :/

Potion of spider climb: This may be the winner. Cheaper than a potion of fly, and gets you out faster (unless you have an awesome fly skill, but that's unlikely since you can't take ranks unless you can already fly regularly).

Grappling Hook: Not bad, just wanted to see if there was something better.

Feather token (tree): BWAHAHAHAHA! That's awesome!


Jiggy wrote:
Potion of jump: +10 to a 20-30ft vertical jump without a running start (DC 160 for 20ft, DC 240 for 30ft) doesn't seem to be much help. :/

Wait, are those DCs serious?!

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

For a vertical jump, the base DC is the height in feet, x4. If you don't have at least a 10ft running start, double it.

Create pit will usually be either 20ft or 30ft deep.

So yes, those are the DCs to be standing at the bottom and suddenly jump straight up.


@_@


Jiggy wrote:

For a vertical jump, the base DC is the height in feet, x4. If you don't have at least a 10ft running start, double it.

Create pit will usually be either 20ft or 30ft deep.

So yes, those are the DCs to be standing at the bottom and suddenly jump straight up.

Which is honestly how it should be. Think of some of the best jumpers of our time, Olympic high jumpers are jumping right around 7 to 8 feet at their peak -- with a running start! Jumping even 10 feet and clearing it while wearing any amount of gear would be a superhuman feat of amazement. Obviously the physics of the Pathfinder world are different, but even so, to be able to jump 20 feet without a running start would be all but impossible for anyone that wasn't part frog.


Funny enough, the running start doesn't stipulate that you have to move 10 feet in a straight line, so you could run a circle around the bottom of the pit before attempting your high jump. Granted, it's still a DC 80 or 120, so ...


MendedWall12 wrote:
Jiggy wrote:

For a vertical jump, the base DC is the height in feet, x4. If you don't have at least a 10ft running start, double it.

Create pit will usually be either 20ft or 30ft deep.

So yes, those are the DCs to be standing at the bottom and suddenly jump straight up.

Which is honestly how it should be. Think of some of the best jumpers of our time, Olympic high jumpers are jumping right around 7 to 8 feet at their peak -- with a running start! Jumping even 10 feet and clearing it while wearing any amount of gear would be a superhuman feat of amazement. Obviously the physics of the Pathfinder world are different, but even so, to be able to jump 20 feet without a running start would be all but impossible for anyone that wasn't part frog.

Or, um... using magic... like a Potion of Jump.

Surprised I haven't seen anyone mention Levitate yet.


I'm thinking the grappling hook looks best. Cheap, available at level 1, reusable, useful in other situations, can be lowered to help someone out as well as pulling yourself up.

At higher levels, Boots of Levitation would do the trick too.


Simplest solution is going to be something small that you can store in a non-extradimensional space. I'm thinking a potion fly is probably the way to go since this will prevent you from taking additional damage from deeper spiked pits / hungry pits. This will allow you to fly out of a 60ft deep pit with a DC 20 fly check (2 move actions flying straight up) if you are light encumbrance. If your medium encumbrance both fly and spider climb give you the same movement up (40ft per turn with 2 move actions).


I am thinking summon sometihng outside of the pit.

Also if a ranged character leviatate might be more useful. in potion form. you might need something for them to grab onto to get out of the pit. Hyrdaulic push might get them off of over the pit if they are levitationg.


Levitate has the problem of only going straight up and down, which granted if you can wait out the pit will get you free, but if the pit lasts longer than the spell you can't much get out beyond the edges to safe ground.


Levitate will always last longer than the pit (1min/lvl vs 1rnd/lvl+1). However, levitate can only move 20ft up per round. At low lvls that might be ok but at higher lvls that means you are out of combat for multiple rounds and being eaten for those rounds if it's a hungry pit.

Ropes with grappling hooks also suffer from the spiked pit. The rope can easily be destroyed by the spiked pit in one round (anything greater than a 1 rolled on the d6 of damage).


Riuken wrote:
A problem you may run into is that a spell pit (a la create pit) is an extradimensional space, and if you keep your solution is a handy haversack/bag of holding, it will be inaccessible. .

Cite please. Create Pit is not a Portable Hole.


PRD wrote:

Wondrous Items

This is a catch all category for anything that doesn't fall into the other groups. Anyone can use a wondrous item (unless specified otherwise in the description).

Physical Description: Varies.

Activation: Usually use-activated or command word, but details vary from item to item.

Special Qualities: Roll d%. An 01 result indicates the wondrous item is intelligent, 02–31 indicates that something (a design, inscription, or the like) provides a clue to its function, and 32–100 indicates no special qualities. Intelligent items have extra abilities and sometimes extraordinary powers and special purposes (see Intelligent Items).

Wondrous items with charges can never be intelligent.

Extradimensional Spaces A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension. Such items do not function, however, inside another extradimensional space. If placed inside such a space, they cease to function until removed from the extradimensional space. For example, if a bag of holding is brought into a rope trick, the contents of the bag of holding become inaccessible until the bag of holding is taken outside the rope trick. The only exception to this is when a bag of holding and a portable hole interact, forming a rift to the Astral Plane, as noted in their descriptions.


Its in the spell description

You create a 10-foot-by-10-foot extra-dimensional hole with a depth of 10 feet per two caster levels (maximum 30 feet).

Edit: At first I was going to claim Ninja but then I read it and see that Serisan answered the second half. Between the two of us we have a complete answer.


DrDeth wrote:
Riuken wrote:
A problem you may run into is that a spell pit (a la create pit) is an extradimensional space, and if you keep your solution is a handy haversack/bag of holding, it will be inaccessible. .
Cite please. Create Pit is not a Portable Hole.

And a good thing it isn't. Create Pit just makes your bags' contents inaccessable, rather than exploding or creating a rift into the Astral.


Levitation would work fine too (and avoid the damage from the spiked pits) ... but its slightly more expensive then other options

Perhaps just make yourself one size larger, then climb out normally, using the brace against both sides modifiers.

Rope of climbing? Always handy to have for other reasons to.


Wiggz wrote:
Or, um... using magic... like a Potion of Jump.

Except that: Acrobatics shows the DC for a standing high jump of thirty feet to have a DC of 120. Even with a caster level 5 potion of jump (the max it can have) you still only get a +20 to your roll. I don't think that's going to get you out of the pit. Assuming all my math is correct, which is always questionable. :)

Silver Crusade

MendedWall12 wrote:
Wiggz wrote:
Or, um... using magic... like a Potion of Jump.
Except that: Acrobatics shows the DC for a standing high jump of thirty feet to have a DC of 120. Even with a caster level 5 potion of jump (the max it can have) you still only get a +20 to your roll. I don't think that's going to get you out of the pit. Assuming all my math is correct, which is always questionable. :)

I believe you can make potions at a higher caster level, so that you can get the +30. The limitation for potions is on spell level, not caster level. It doesn't matter, however, as even a +30 does no good against a DC 120 (at least in non-epic levels).


Jiggy wrote:

Great suggestions so far, now let's analyze them!

Potion of fly: At first I was worried that the DC 20 Fly check to move up sharply would be an issue, but if you spiral (you can turn up to 45 degrees without a check by sacrificing 5ft of movement) you could make some progress and be out in a couple of rounds. Nice idea!

Screw fly. Levitate should be your answer to a pit.

Levitate's whole purpose is to send you straight up with no skill checks to pass, no silly spiraling to move; just use a potion of this and get high enough that you can move yourself back onto solid ground.

[EDIT] Bleh, Ninja'd. Should have read the rest of the thread.

Sczarni

If said character is a melee character then Enlarge Person should be soemthing you want anyways. It makes climbing out a joke since you can use corners AND brace against the other wall to gain SUBSTANTIAL bonuses to your climb check.


Just so you all understand. Levitate has a MAXIMUM rate of 20 ft per round. You CAN NOT levitate up 20 ft twice per round even though it is a move action. That means that if you fall into a 60ft hungry pit it will take you 3 rounds to get out and you will have taken 4d6 points of damage each round. Fly has a 60ft movement but is halved when going straight up, so 30ft per move action and you can take 2 move actions. So you get out of a 60ft pit in 1 round. Considering a hungry pit can be as deep as 100ft, that can be as much as 12d6 worth of damage difference between using a levitate vs fly.


Additionally, you could just have a non-terrible Reflex save and call it good.

I think Feather Token (Tree) is the clear winner in this fight.


This topic is exactly why certain spells and abilities are really unsuitable to be used against PCs, especially PCs in organized play games. The "Pit" spells just get nastier and nastier as they go up in level as does their depth, duration and Climb DCs. Much like Stinking Cloud, the spell is an "encounter killer". If applied to players often enough, it can cause "Lonely GM Syndrome" where nobody wants to play in your games because watching paint dry would be more fun.

My snarky answer to the OP is "Get up, hit the bathroom, go get a snack and see if you can catch a quick Magic The Gathering game or something. By the time you get back, you'll be out of the pit."

More seriously, anything that involves climbing is going to end up pretty much taking you out of the fight. No matter how well you can boost your climb check, you are still climbing at 1/4 speed (1/2 speed at best). In which case, might as well stay wait for the duration to expire unless the pit is doing damage.


Slippers of spider climbing.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Mike J wrote:
My snarky answer to the OP is "Get up, hit the bathroom, go get a snack and see if you can catch a quick Magic The Gathering game or something. By the time you get back, you'll be out of the pit."

Nah, my MtG games are never that fast. ;)

Quote:
More seriously, anything that involves climbing is going to end up pretty much taking you out of the fight. No matter how well you can boost your climb check, you are still climbing at 1/4 speed (1/2 speed at best). In which case, might as well stay wait for the duration to expire unless the pit is doing damage.

Well, spider climb gives you a climb speed of 20ft, so you're out of the pit two move actions after drinking the potion.

Dark Archive

I prefer the Quickened Create Pit & Stone Shape combo.
Like bugs caught in a jar.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

A good Spellcraft check and a create pit to counterspell?


You should feel proud that the GM targeted you with some of the best and most likely underleveled spells in the game.


Mike J wrote:
This topic is exactly why certain spells and abilities are really unsuitable to be used against PCs, especially PCs in organized play games. The "Pit" spells just get nastier and nastier as they go up in level as does their depth, duration and Climb DCs.

The Pit spells are much better than Feeblemind, Baleful Polymorph, dominate Person, etc. At least give you an option to do something against it after you got hit.

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