Resurrection blues?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


Hiyas!

All right, first post, a question... Who woulda thunk?! (If these have already been answered, please, point me in the right direction kindly - my search-fu is lacking - thanks!)

1. Why doesn't everyone who's willing & able (usually rich & powerful folk), opt to use resurrect magic (or have they?)?

2. Has it evah been explained how can gods die if mortals can be resurrected?

3. What's so cool about becoming a lich when one can always (thru the proper channels) use resurrect magic instead (ie., doesn't lichdom, for instance, uglify oneself & do other evil, nasty, funky, repulsive things, too?); isn't lichdom a terrible choice in life?

Hope I'm not missing the point entirely... (I am rather slow of mind, like a certain wanderer)!

Thanks!
VA!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Viva Aroden! wrote:


2. Has it evah been explained how can gods die if mortals can be resurrected?

Any being whose body and soul are the same thing, such as outsiders, can't be resurrected because the soul dies with the body. Makes sense, right? Gods operate under similar rules.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The main limitation on ressurection magic other than cost is that nothing can stop you from dying of old age; ressurection stops working at that point (hence, liches).

Also, I would assume that anything that can kill a god is already so far beyond mortal ken that mortal magic just wouldn't work.


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The Best Goblin! wrote:
Viva Aroden! wrote:


2. Has it evah been explained how can gods die if mortals can be resurrected?
Any being whose body and soul are the same thing, such as outsiders, can't be resurrected because the soul dies with the body. Makes sense, right? Gods operate under similar rules.

The effect of that rule is that it takes more powerful magic to resurrect a dead god. It also takes very powerful magic to kill a god. When a god is killed, there are many other gods who are powerful enough to bring him back. But why should they? I can think of a couple of reasons that they would not:

1) Fear of whoever killed that god.

2) Gods generally benefit from the deaths of other gods, especially if they inherit some of their former worshipers.

Of course, if a god has faithful clerics of level 17+ and those clerics do not immediately lose their powers when their god is killed, those clerics would have reason to bring their god back as soon as they are aware that he was killed -- unlike fellow gods, clerics of a god would generally want him back as soon as possible. Of course, anyone intent on killing a god should first kill off all of his high level clerics for exactly that reason.


Dying and having your soul go to the outer planes ultimately places you at the mercy of your god. Some people, depending on the god involved, might try anything to avoid that fate.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

1) When you reach your natural lifespan, your soul is too frail to return to life. Resurrection won't work, simple as that.

2) Mortals can only be resurrected until they've been judged by Pharasma. Essentially while they are in the queue. Aroden at least jumped the queue, and was judged as soon as he appeared in the boneyard.

3) See #1. As a lich, you can live past your natural maximum age


Hi:

Thanks for the input. So, to have an analog, resurrection magic is akin to Dune's spice; it will prolong life, but eventually the body shuts down...?

QVA!


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One thing that is related that I've always wondered about is Reincarnation. IIRC, it says you come back in a young adult body. Sure, it might be a goblin or something you don't want to be, but I wonder if any NPCs out there aren't taking a gamble and arranging for their own early death when they get elderly followed by the spell just to get a new lifespan.


Ridge wrote:
One thing that is related that I've always wondered about is Reincarnation. IIRC, it says you come back in a young adult body. Sure, it might be a goblin or something you don't want to be, but I wonder if any NPCs out there aren't taking a gamble and arranging for their own early death when they get elderly followed by the spell just to get a new lifespan.

This.

Has inspired a cabal of reincarnations villains for my home game. Thank you for reminding me why I read these forums.


IMHO, I think ressurection magic has been so horribly over-used that it's become something that is not even regarded as miraculous. Sad.

Neil HO Barb: Ok, post-dungeon crawl to-do list...get better armor, check; buy that juicy enchant for the trusty axe, check; ress stupid rogue that wanted to touch everything...hmmm...missing a diamond. Better round up the guys and pool our money for that one...oh well. On the good side, we still have five more days according to our cleric...plenty enough of time...


Shane LeRose wrote:
Ridge wrote:
One thing that is related that I've always wondered about is Reincarnation. IIRC, it says you come back in a young adult body. Sure, it might be a goblin or something you don't want to be, but I wonder if any NPCs out there aren't taking a gamble and arranging for their own early death when they get elderly followed by the spell just to get a new lifespan.

This.

Has inspired a cabal of reincarnations villains for my home game. Thank you for reminding me why I read these forums.

You're most welcome. I get a lot of good ideas here myself. :)

Silver Crusade

My understanding is that the difficulty of finding someone of a certain level increases exponentially as you search for higher levels. I would use the follower numbers from the leadership feat as a guideline. Sometimes, you just can't find anyone capable in time.

Secondly, clerics are devoted to their gods in ways few others ever can be. It doesn't matter how much money the king's advisers offer to pay the clerics of sarenrae: if the king was evil and a jerk they'd rather die than bring him back. You could always ask a wizard to cast wish, as I'm sure his moral code isn't as rigid, but then you hit problem #1 again: how many level 17+ wizards do you think you can find in time?


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Resurrection and Reincarnate spells could create some interesting succession issues if there are no laws to account for them.

If the king is reincarnated, great -- he has the same mind as before, so he should rule just as well. But what if he was childless when he died? Are the people of the kingdom ready to accept the child of his reincarnated form as his legitimate successor.

For Resurrection -- while Raise Dead has a reasonable time limit that is likely to expire before the coronation of a dead king's successor, you could use Resurrection to bring back a king who died 10 or 20 years earlier, assuming that he did not die of old age. Does the resurrected king have any legitimate claim to his former throne? This situation could easily lead to a civil war if the current king is unpopular.


David knott 242 wrote:


For Resurrection -- while Raise Dead has a reasonable time limit that is likely to expire before the coronation of a dead king's successor, you could use Resurrection to bring back a king who died 10 or 20 years earlier, assuming that he did not die of old age. Does the resurrected king have any legitimate claim to his former throne? This situation could easily lead to a civil war if the current king is unpopular.

I actually had a setting where that very thing happened. Later the kingdom would adopt a ruling that rulership ended at death, even if that death didn't last long.

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TerraNova wrote:

1) When you reach your natural lifespan, your soul is too frail to return to life. Resurrection won't work, simple as that.

2) Mortals can only be resurrected until they've been judged by Pharasma. Essentially while they are in the queue. Aroden at least jumped the queue, and was judged as soon as he appeared in the boneyard.

3) See #1. As a lich, you can live past your natural maximum age

It should also be pointed out that Pharasma, being goddess of prophecy, should know who's going to get resurrected and who isn't, so it would be perfectly reasonable for her to stall in those cases. Have the psychopomps say the lottery gave them a high number for the queue, put them on a bench while you sort paperwork, whatever excuse seems good. Why bother judging souls twice? Plus it saves trouble with cranky gods annoyed because their clerics whine about resurrections not working.

As for "jumping the queue," my assumption is that the Boneyard is a lot like the DMV. There's more than one queue and more than one caseworker, some lines go faster than other, some lines stall, some people are sent back for additional documentation, etc. Aroden didn't so much jump the queue as one expects Pharasma has a standing order "If a god dies, send him directly to me and put the rest of the day's scheduled business on hold." Given that gods don't die very often, this is not a huge inconvenience.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

JJ and the rest of the creative team have always said that they prefer to keep the mechanics of souls, Pharasma, and the Boneyard murky. Death and the afterlife are supposed to be Very Mysterious, and spelling out mechanics for it makes it much less so.

This empowers GMs to interpret how it works best for their own versions of Golarion. As a GM, I greatly appreciate this!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ridge wrote:
One thing that is related that I've always wondered about is Reincarnation. IIRC, it says you come back in a young adult body. Sure, it might be a goblin or something you don't want to be, but I wonder if any NPCs out there aren't taking a gamble and arranging for their own early death when they get elderly followed by the spell just to get a new lifespan.

There actually is a villain referenced in one of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting books who's been running this con for a while now (like 4 lifetimes, I think, maybe more.) I can't remember which book he's in (I want to say Heart of the Jungle, but I might be wrong,) but if I find him, I'll post him here, because I've got to give props for running that kind of a game for so long (and to the writer who came up with him.) Eventually, you've got to assume the Marut Inevitables are going to come looking for him.


I'm thinking about homeruling a % chance that resurrection et al don't work, somewhere around 25-30%. This would represent the fact that you can't argue with a deity - if the line moves quick, that's it. If the spell doesn't work, the diamond component wouldn't be consumed.

We've had two raise deads in our home game so far, a PC at the end of Skinsaw, and a cohort soon after in a side quest, which is fine. It's not that I want to kill PCs forever, but I do want that a) the players fear character death more than just as a financial gain/minor inconvenience, and b) a small chance of permadeath means that if monarchs are useless enough to let themselves get assassinated six times, the law of averages means that they'll pay for it sooner or later, and not just in diamond dust (ie the rich never die young).

Anyone got feedback on this idea beyond "You're a nasty/bad GM that just wants to cause his players grief", or "the rules say this so you have to allow it to work"? I'd be interested to hear genuine opinions on how to make this work best.

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Generally speaking, I've found, as a player, any time the GM goes "I want character death to mean something," what it ends up meaning is that the only characters who survive are the ones who've been combat-twinked till they squeak and often have players who are willing to meta-game to protect them. This becomes really dissatisfying to anyone who plays a roleplay-heavy character, who took some item or feat or level dip because it fit the character, not because it made the most effective combat tank, and who also refused to use metagame knowledge to save their character.

Having resurrections as a possibility means that death can remain a on the table but doesn't have to lead to an awkward mid-season replacement of an actor and plotline, nor do you have to deal with the trouble of supposedly good and moral characters failing to grieve for someone who's supposedly been their boon companion but just died horribly and now everyone's going along as if he never existed.

Admittedly, this is coming from the perspective of a roleplay-heavy player. I'm not meaning to say that other types of games are wrongbadfun, but the resurrection escape clause is there for a reason, and it should also be pointed out that resurrection is a pretty common trope in a lot of fairytales. Keeping it on the table keeps the world fantastic, in addition to keeping a lot of players happy.

Of course, there's also the economics issue, but it should be pointed out that the king who's been resurrected ten times is obviously not only rich but is either especially beloved or else has someone willing to bankroll his return after assassination. With resurrection, assassination also becomes a way to send a message. If you really didn't like the king, you'd dominate him to rut with goats in the middle of the state dinner or something.


Hi Kevin,

Was that in response to my post? I wasn't sure, because you mention keeping resurrection "on the table"... I'm all for keeping it on the table, but I think that there being a chance that it doesn't work every time could be a good thing.

I'd never want to get rid of it completely, for many of the reasons you pointed out. Though your post inspired the thought that everyone gets one "guaranteed" res, before the % to fail thing kicks in...

Also, I find it cool to have someone that considers themselves a RP-heavy player defend these spells :) Not what I was expecting.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Drakli wrote:
Ridge wrote:
One thing that is related that I've always wondered about is Reincarnation. IIRC, it says you come back in a young adult body. Sure, it might be a goblin or something you don't want to be, but I wonder if any NPCs out there aren't taking a gamble and arranging for their own early death when they get elderly followed by the spell just to get a new lifespan.
There actually is a villain referenced in one of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting books who's been running this con for a while now (like 4 lifetimes, I think, maybe more.) I can't remember which book he's in (I want to say Heart of the Jungle, but I might be wrong,) but if I find him, I'll post him here, because I've got to give props for running that kind of a game for so long (and to the writer who came up with him.) Eventually, you've got to assume the Marut Inevitables are going to come looking for him.

Assuming it's the guy I'm thinking of, he's not so much a Villain, as just not a good guy. In the 'Guide to the River Kingdoms', the leader of one of the older River Kingdoms has actually been the same guy since he founded it back when it was still a Colony of Taldor. He set up the assumption process so that whoever his 'new' body was could take over fairly easily, & it has been a lot more than just four lifetimes. He started this over two thousand years ago, yet he's still only 14th character level, go figure.

It does however state that the Druids he made the deal with have started to question whether it is still a good idea & it is strongly hinted that this was the last time they will do it for him.

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littlehewy wrote:

Hi Kevin,

Was that in response to my post? I wasn't sure, because you mention keeping resurrection "on the table"... I'm all for keeping it on the table, but I think that there being a chance that it doesn't work every time could be a good thing.

I'd never want to get rid of it completely, for many of the reasons you pointed out. Though your post inspired the thought that everyone gets one "guaranteed" res, before the % to fail thing kicks in...

Also, I find it cool to have someone that considers themselves a RP-heavy player defend these spells :) Not what I was expecting.

I think it's a cool idea, so long as you let your players know ahead of time that you'll be running it that way. I also like the idea of the first one being free. You could even have it be a scaling chance, depending on how many times they've been resurrected already.

The only other thing I'd suggest is, if the dice come up against the res, and the players are really attached to that character, maybe give the party the chance to bargain with Pharasma (or whoever is in charge of things) for a chance to win them back?

When our group was playing Savage Tide, my character's cohort died at one point, and couldn't be resurrected because Mictlantecuhtli (one of the aztec gods of the underworld) had claimed his soul. We were able to convince the god to give up my cohort's soul in exchange for another soul that had escaped him by becoming a lich, which of course necessitated us finding and destroying said lich, and the whole thing ended up being one of the cooler and more memorable side-quests in the campaign.


Great ideas Benchak. I really like the chance for the players to overcome it with a story-based "mechanic". I'll definitely do that if I end up implementing it (read: if my players let me implement it - I'm pretty sure it amuses them to allow me to think I'm in charge).

The scaling idea is good to, but I probably woudn't be bothered to keep track of that. It certainly makes sense though, and fits with the theme of the idea.

I like the lich side-quest too. I may very well steal that if the dice do come up "Pharasma says no".

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littlehewy wrote:

Hi Kevin,

Was that in response to my post? I wasn't sure, because you mention keeping resurrection "on the table"... I'm all for keeping it on the table, but I think that there being a chance that it doesn't work every time could be a good thing.

I'd never want to get rid of it completely, for many of the reasons you pointed out. Though your post inspired the thought that everyone gets one "guaranteed" res, before the % to fail thing kicks in...

Also, I find it cool to have someone that considers themselves a RP-heavy player defend these spells :) Not what I was expecting.

The trouble with the % fail chance means that the player can lose their character to being dice-screwed, which is never satisfying.

Which is not to say that I haven't put rules up around resurrections before in my games.

In one game I ran, Death was an actual presence, a divinity who could actually show up, be bargained with and so forth. Death had certain rules.

One of the rules was that Death didn't particularly mind someone being resurrected if they had be slain by death magic. Kill someone with a Slay Living, bring them back with a Raise Dead, it all evens out in the wash.

Death, OTOH, was less happy about people being brought back who'd died of other causes. It wasn't allowed unless the person being brought back had someone willing to take their place in the land of the dead, or some other bargain was made with Death--beating him at chess, in combat, or whatever Death felt appropriate.

In a recent game, I did a variant on this: The characters traveled to a city that was halfway into the land of the dead. One of the characters, while there, fell in love with a dead woman, who looked perfectly healthy and alive so long as she stayed in that city. Death was the gatekeeper of the city and told him that if he wanted to take his new bride out into the lands of the living with him, he would have to give half of his mortal span to her. Death did not tell him how long that span was, only that it would be half of what it was before, and he and his bride would die at the same time.

This problem was later fixed with a dryad's wish, which was able to give both of them a full span of years. But it was the way things worked.

My suggestion is, if you want to have a chance of failure, have the reasoning behind this be more than just a bad dice roll. After all, if someone were trying to resurrect the king and it didn't work, the queen would not accept "Eh, sometimes these things just happen and we don't know why" as the answer. Come up with a logical explanation.

Has the character been resurrected so many times that an inevitable showed up to put a stop to it? That's an explanation. However, that inevitable is also something that can be bargained with. Yes, it's a lawful being, but it has a brain, and the adventurer who's been resurrected five times but hasn't lived out a full mortal lifespan is less of a problem than the guy who's lived three full lifespans and is about to get a fourth via magic cheese, like, say, having someone reincarnate him then picking up the axe of the dwarvish lords to turn himself into a dwarf, or just paying a powerful witch to use Forced Reincarnation on the spin cycle until he gets a body with the race and sex he'd be happy with. The inevitable can let the little fish go if the party helps it catch the big fish.


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
..lots of stuff...

Also lots of great ideas/examples there Kevin, thanks a bunch. Between Benchak and your good self, I've got plenty of great options to present to my players, so they can dig it as a more interesting option rather than as "hey GM, stop killing my PF buzz!" thing.

I don't think my players will mind the dice-roll/randomness aspect, as they themselves suggest their PCs making Int, Wis, or Morale (yeah, remember Morale?) checks where neither I, nor the rules, need them to :) Really, they are such a good bunch that they're basically the bosses. I ask them before each fight if they'll let me use my crit and fumble iPhone apps (they usually don't - but sometimes they'll let me for a climactic battle).

But as I said, lots of great ideas here to try and sway them to my concept. Cheers guys.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hm...

1.) They probably do to bring back the kid who died early on of random illnesses or a ladder falling on their head, but after old age, it doesn't work.

2.) Even if gods don't operate like Outsiders (i.e. they can't be resurrected), it takes deity-level magic to bring back mortals (since divine magic uses the power of gods), then it would need an even higher tier of power to revive a deity.

3.) Liches gain "immortality." On top of that, they gain incredible power, and you only need to pay once to keep getting and getting, while you have to keep paying to resurrect someone.


Dotted for awesome sauce.

Silver Crusade

They had an article on this sort of thing a long time ago back in Dragon magazine (from the pre-Paizo days, oddly enough).

It was about the intrinsic social problems created by Raise Dead and Resurrection. Kings and such were specifically spelled out, as were inheritences.

Lets say the king dies in glorious battle defending his realm, his son takes over, his son dies and his grandson takes over. Its been 150 years since he snuffed it. THen along comes a 15th level cleric with a shiny new resurrection spell, and bam.. (10 years per level on res, just imagine a 20th level Cleric in the real world deciding to bring back Jefferson or Washington. 'Intention of the founders? Lets just ask one! MUahahaha!).

King Dead Grandpa is now back. Did his kingship end with death, or does it continue on. What if he dislikes his Grandson's reign? What if other people dislike his Grandson's reign? Even if the law is based around 'no backsies' at what point does the 'death' thing take effect. What happens if Good King Dead Grandpa has a kid? Where does he fall in the succession line?

Are married couple's vows of 'to death do we part' negated when one of the participants dies and is brought back? Maybe the res cost includes teh cost of the wedding again. I want black drapes for the funeral, but then I need them changed an hour later for the wedding.

Also, lets say I'm the Late Prince Rich-As-Hell, and I die, my father makes a suitably ridiculous burial mound for me, full of traps and stuff. Orcs move in, start squatting in my cairn and playing 'toss the sacred grave goods at the local populace' resulting in a group of heroes coming in, beating them up and taking my stuff, and then well, I'm brought back. Don't all those things belong to me? Or does my ownership go away based on the fact I was dead? I mean the /undead/ don't have that problem, ghosts are getting their crap returned all the time.

Speaking of undead. True res lets you come back even if you were an undead creature. How does the law apply when you say were a vampire murderer who almost overthrew the kingdom and you get resurrected as a normal person again. Are you responsible for crimes committed while undead?

Do you need to pay taxes for the 'dead' period if your resurrected? How is your legal age calculated?

Also, true res and res don't require bodies as such. Imagine you're a cleric who dies defending a village. They interr you and venerate you, then someone who knows your name, has a fingerbone of yours, or something resurrects you. How does that work? Do you cause trouble if you go back to the village? Are they going to think that you're something special? Does your body belong to you. Can you get executed for trying to 'steal' it or rob your own grave?

I think this is why most campaign worlds institute a system like Golarian seems to have where there's a point past the spirit just not being available anymore, but that seems to limti the usefulness of spells like res and true res.

Still, a good percentage of those 'problems' seem like good adventure hooks so..

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Resurrection is central to the plot, as is living forever.

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Spook205 wrote:

They had an article on this sort of thing a long time ago back in Dragon magazine (from the pre-Paizo days, oddly enough).

It was about the intrinsic social problems created by Raise Dead and Resurrection. Kings and such were specifically spelled out, as were inheritences.

Lets say the king dies in glorious battle defending his realm, his son takes over, his son dies and his grandson takes over. Its been 150 years since he snuffed it. THen along comes a 15th level cleric with a shiny new resurrection spell, and bam.. (10 years per level on res, just imagine a 20th level Cleric in the real world deciding to bring back Jefferson or Washington. 'Intention of the founders? Lets just ask one! MUahahaha!).

King Dead Grandpa is now back. Did his kingship end with death, or does it continue on.

I'd say most countries would consider his death the same as abdicating the throne, especially given the 150 year interim.

Spook205 wrote:
What if he dislikes his Grandson's reign? What if other people dislike his Grandson's reign? Even if the law is based around 'no backsies' at what point does the 'death' thing take effect. What happens if Good King Dead Grandpa has a kid? Where does he fall in the succession line?

Not liking the grandson's reign and the people agreeing means that the grandson better watch his back for a coup. It would be legally messy, but anything can be done if you've got enough power, and the support of the governed is party of that.

As for the kid, where it falls in the line of succession would be the same as if someone who abdicated had a kid, though they could be added back in if everyone's in agreement, depending on the laws of the kingdom and whatnot.

For example, with current day headlines, William and Kate are going to have a kid. They've changed the laws so whoever the first born is is heir, rather than it being "first-born son unless you don't have any, in which case it's first-born daughter."

Spook205 wrote:
Are married couple's vows of 'to death do we part' negated when one of the participants dies and is brought back? Maybe the res cost includes teh cost of the wedding again. I want black drapes for the funeral, but then I need them changed an hour later for the wedding.

There is likely some interpretation where death results in a no-fault divorce if someone's been dead for more than X years, but you don't need to bother if death has been less than a month or whatever the usual mourning period is where the widow or widower is not supposed to get remarried without looking tacky.

Spook205 wrote:
Also, lets say I'm the Late Prince Rich-As-Hell, and I die, my father makes a suitably ridiculous burial mound for me, full of traps and stuff. Orcs move in, start squatting in my cairn and playing 'toss the sacred grave goods at the local populace' resulting in a group of heroes coming in, beating them up and taking my stuff, and then well, I'm brought back. Don't all those things belong to me? Or does my ownership go away based on the fact I was dead? I mean the /undead/ don't have that problem, ghosts are getting their crap returned all the time.

Well, this is a question of who graves and grave goods belong to anyway. If a graverobber digs up someone's late wife and seller her jewelry to the jeweler, the jeweler can get caught for selling stolen goods, the same as if they were stolen from someone's living wife.

Reasonably, the grave goods legally belong to the deceased, whether or not they were looted by orcs, sold to peddlers, and so on. Getting your stuff back and proving that it's yours is another matter.

The local judge would probably suggest that the newly resurrected Prince Rich-as-Hell come up with some arrangement with his rescuers, since resurrections don't grow on trees.

Spook205 wrote:
Speaking of undead. True res lets you come back even if you were an undead creature. How does the law apply when you say were a vampire murderer who almost overthrew the kingdom and you get resurrected as a normal person again. Are you responsible for crimes committed while undead?

That is a good question and is best dealt with by seeing how the law deals with cases of diminished capacity. Can you be "not guilty by reason of insanity" or are you still held responsible for your actions if you are capable of distinguishing between right and wrong? Are "I was drunk" or "I was on drugs" sufficient to absolve you of any crimes committed while you were intoxicated?

Generally speaking, if intelligent undead can prevent themselves from doing illegal stuff, then the illegal stuff you do while you're undead is still your fault. The judge might have some leniency for extenuating circumstances, especially if you were dominated by a master vampire or jumped into the gang by a ghoul pack, but the fact that there are intelligent undead who can resist running up to the first baby they see and stuffing it in their mouths doesn't speak well for you.

There are plenty of vampires who don't try to overthrow kingdoms you know.

Spook205 wrote:
Do you need to pay taxes for the 'dead' period if your resurrected? How is your legal age calculated?

You probably don't need to pay taxes when you're dead since the law would reasonably treat this the same as you having moved to another country. Any property you left behind would be passed to your heirs who would then have to pay taxes in turn.

Grave goods are probably not taxed because it would simply get ugly. However, once you're alive again, you might have to pay capital gains taxes if you sell any of the now valuable antiques you were interred with.

Legal age would probably be calculated as years alive. Being undead might be calculated in too, depending on the legal status of undead in the country.

Spook205 wrote:
Also, true res and res don't require bodies as such. Imagine you're a cleric who dies defending a village. They interr you and venerate you, then someone who knows your name, has a fingerbone of yours, or something resurrects you. How does that work? Do you cause trouble if you go back to the village? Are they going to think that you're something special? Does your body belong to you. Can you get executed for trying to 'steal' it or rob your own grave?

The question comes of why are you robbing your own grave rather than just going to the gravedigger or cemetery keeper, explaining the situation, and asking to have your goods disinterred. If you're doing it to avoid legal hassles then get caught, you deserve the legal hassles you get.

Spook205 wrote:

I think this is why most campaign worlds institute a system like Golarian seems to have where there's a point past the spirit just not being available anymore, but that seems to limti the usefulness of spells like res and true res.

Still, a good percentage of those 'problems' seem like good adventure hooks so..

Laws and legalities are always adventure hooks.

Silver Crusade

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
I'd say most countries would consider his death the same as abdicating the throne, especially given the 150 year interim.

I'll give you that since it sounds somewhat reasonable. I was just looking at potential complications. Death and taxes and all that. Junk like this makes you appreciate the hard working maruts we've got.

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
The question comes of why are you robbing your own grave rather than just going to the gravedigger or cemetery keeper, explaining the situation, and asking to have your goods disinterred. If you're doing it to avoid legal hassles then get caught, you deserve the legal hassles you get.

Well the idea I failed to properly convey was that you find the idea of your body being interred somewhere significantly creepy and have already exhausted the 'Its my body!' angle. Probably because the averge person, even in a world where res magic is possible (its still seventh level magic, so even if the guy knows that you can come back after a few days, a few decades is a little different), is going to look at a person who claims to be dead /and/ there to collect his own mortal remains a little doubtfully. How do you prove something like that after a hundred years anyway?

More magically savvy places might have like a 'frosty the snowman' test to keep evil wizards from crafting simulacra and then having simulacra go around the world to collect the bodies of 'heroes' to create the pathfinder version of Serpentor or something.

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Legal age would probably be calculated as years alive. Being undead might be calculated in too, depending on the legal status of undead in the country.

I don't even want to imagine the headache this would cause to some document minded scribe. Well I do. Because I find the entire idea of someone making an agency to track this darkly hillarious.

Birth, Undeath and ReBirth Certificates! :D

"Please have your vampiric sire sign this document of vampiric embrace in triplicate indicating time of embrace and then have the Adventuring parties indicate on form 22-1B time of destruction of undead remains and subsequent resurrection at the Temple of Death and Taxes. Oh you were reincarnated too? *sigh* Pawprint here.."

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Laws and legalities are always adventure hooks.

...I'd even think you could make some sort of really messed up campaign about this. Something Law & Order Golarian Probate.


I dont think golarion law knows extenuating circumstances or similar ideas.

Except curses and similar reasons.
And even then its not exactly punishable to kill the dominated paladin, more like a tragedy.

Otoh menaces that arent curable are just plain menaces. If they cannot control themselves, like the insane or werewolf.. they are simply to be put down like the beasts that they are.

Similar, it is legal to loot the entire wealth of those you have killed under those legal circumstances.
Ofcourse, it ay be legal only because the say so of teleporting, fireball tossing murder-hoboes that have 50 times the hitpoints of the local law.

Might is Right!

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