Disarm / Sunder and Vision


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If you cannot see, you cannot target (invisibility, blind - you can attack a square, but an invisible defender is ineligible for a targetted spell or effect, you cannot exclude them with channel energy, et al, unless you can target them). I'm not sure that needs to be debated here, but if you do feel the need, please cite why this would/would not be the case with RAW passages, as it's not the point of my thread.

Based on this premise, how does a blind attacker go about using Sunder or Disarm? Sunder and Disarm are both attack rolls, however they obviously target to some degree (are you disarming an object on the creature at the higher CMD, or a held object? are you sundering armor? shield? necklace? spell effect (if a barbarian)?).

My question is, can a blinded character sunder against a foe they know is in a particular square? Different question, what about an invisible defender? How about if the attacker walks up to a foe with mirror image, and closes his eyes for the attack?

Separately, when choosing to close your eyes, can you do so mid-round? Gaze attacks force you to make this choice at the start of the round, however there is a clear need as there are effects that happen relevant to that choice at the start of the round. Unfortunately, the RAW is fairly silent on closing your eyes as a combat maneuver (or portion of one).


Unmitigated wrote:
My question is, can a blinded character sunder against a foe they know is in a particular square? Different question, what about an invisible defender?

I can definitely state that those two questions have the same answer. I'm not sure what the answer is, but effectively the quest is does line-of-sight affect combat maneuvers.

From grapple we know that an invisible grappled it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD and receives no other benefit.

I don't see any other mention of combat maneuvers and invisibility.

I can see where Trip, Bull Rush and Overrun should be possible and I would probably just apply the +2 circumstance bonus noted above (don't forget the 50% miss chance).

Disarm is a little tougher, I could see (pardon the pun) that if you were fencing with an invisible opponent that when your blades crossed you could 'feel' it and know to do a disarm maneuver, but I would think that would be very tough to do.

Sunder is even harder as you're trying to strike hard at a vulnerable location on a particular item. It also depends on what you are trying to sunder. Trying to sunder a weapon or shield should be possible. Trying to sunder a necklace should be nigh impossible.


My gut says yes but there is 50% miss chance.

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