Advice on Vivisectionist Alchemist


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Silver Crusade

So here is what I came up with:

Visisectionist:
Gobby
Male Hobgoblin Alchemist (Vivisectionist) 11
NN Medium Humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +10; Senses Darkvision; Perception +14
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 22, touch 18, flat-footed 14 (+2 armor, +8 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 102 (11d8+33)
Fort +12, Ref +17, Will +8
Immune poison
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 Dagger +16/+11 (1d4+2/19-20/x2) and
. . +2 Dagger +16/+11 (1d4+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Bite (Mutagen (feral)) +16 (1d8+2/x2) and
. . Claw x2 (Mutagen (feral)) +16 x2 (1d6+2/x2) and
. . Tentacle (Tentacle) +16 (1d4+2 plus grab/x2)
Special Attacks Grab, Sneak Attack +6d6, Tentacle
Alchemist (Vivisectionist) Spells Prepared (CL 11, 8 melee touch, 16 ranged touch):
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 19/27, Con 16, Int 16/18, Wis 12/10, Cha 7
Base Atk +8; CMB +8 (+12 Grappling); CMD 26
Feats Brew Potion, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Master Alchemist, Multiattack, Throw Anything, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +19, Appraise +8, Climb +1, Craft (alchemy) +22, Disable Device +20, Heal +18, Intimidate +0, Knowledge (arcana) +18, Knowledge (nature) +18, Perception +14, Sleight of Hand +22, Spellcraft +8, Stealth +26, Swim +1 Modifiers Alchemy +11
Languages Common, Draconic, Giant, Goblin, Infernal, Orc
SQ Fast Poisoning (Swift Action), Feather step slippers, Feral Mutagen, Infusion, Mutagen (DC 19), Poison Use, Swift Alchemy, Torturous Transformation, Vestigial Arm, Vestigial Arm
Combat Gear +1 Haramaki, +2 Dagger, +2 Dagger; Other Gear Alchemist's kit, Alchemist's lab, Amulet of mighty fists +2, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Cloak of resistance +2, Feather step slippers, Feral Mutagen: +4 DEX, -2 WIS, +2 Nat AC, Headband of vast intelligence +2 (Acrobatics), Thieves' tools, masterwork

--------------------
Special Abilities
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Alchemy +11 (Su) +11 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Fast Poisoning (Swift Action) (Ex) Apply poison to a weapon as a swift action.
Feather step slippers Ignore difficult terrain as though affected by feather step.
Feral Mutagen (Su) Whenever the alchemist imbibes a mutagen, he gains two claw attacks and a bite attack. These are primary attacks and are made using the alchemist’s full base attack bonus. The claw attacks deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if the alchemist is Small) and
Grab (Medium) (Ex) You can start a grapple as a free action if you hit with the designated weapon.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Infusion When the alchemist creates an extract, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power. The extract created now persists even after the alchemist sets it down. As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist’s d
Master Alchemist You may create 4 doses of poison in the time it would normally take to create one, and may create alchemical items 10x as fast.
Mutagen (DC 19) (Su) Mutagen adds +4 to a Physical attribute, -2 to a mental attribute, and +2 natural armor for 10 minutes/level.
Poison Use You don't accidentally poison yourself with blades.
Sneak Attack +6d6 +6d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Swift Alchemy (Ex) You can construct alchemical items in half the normal time.
Tentacle The alchemist gains a prehensile, armlength tentacle on his body. The tentacle is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The tentacle does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, th
Throw Anything Proficient with improvised ranged weapons. +1 to hit with thrown splash weapons.
Torturous Transformation At 7th level, a vivisectionist adds anthropomorphic animal to his formula book as a 2nd-level extract. When he uses this extract, he injects it into an animal as part of a 2-hour surgical procedure. By using multiple doses of this extract as p
Vestigial Arm The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can
Vestigial Arm The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can

I have the Mutagen (Dex) already applied here. I am interested in any suggestions for spells and I also have about 17K in Gold that I haven't spent.

I was planning on also using Purple Worm Poison since I've got Master Alchemist and it's got a very good DC and the character is immune to poison.

Any suggestions are welcome.


A little left field but consider Spellblade magus 2 level dip

This gets you a Force Athame powered by the 3 1st level Magus spells you'll have

Then use Arcane Pool to empower it and whatever other weapon you happen to be using.

Benefit you have a dagger that can deal dagger 1d4 PLUS 5d6 sneak damage as force damage which can bypass DR , energy resists etc etc

might not fit your flavor but just for mechanical consideration

Also if you go into master chymist for brutality which can apply to a dagger which is a simple weapon


(Hob)goblin melee Alchemist?

Take the Restless Hunger trait and don't look back. Even once a day, downing an extract as part of a charge (instead of its own action) is a great ability.

Silver Crusade

The Magus option is interesting

I'm not a huge fan of Brutality because as you can see I'm looking more to max attacks and +hit rather than flat damage. Also, there are a lot of nice alchemist discoveries I'm interested in.

Silver Crusade

deuxhero wrote:

(Hob)goblin melee Alchemist?

Take the Restless Hunger trait and don't look back. Even once a day, downing an extract as part of a charge (instead of its own action) is a great ability.

Sadly that's not legal for my campaign. We don't use the smaller splat books. Only the hardbacks.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I would also take Internal Alchemist. You don't loose to much I think. And you gain some greater ability at standing.

Silver Crusade

should I keep the weapons and amulet +2 or make them all +1 Holy?


depends on your campaign, Holy is great vs evil but dose nothing against good/neutral.


I would honestly consider adding 'internal alchemist' to your archetypes as well (it's just a cool class that actually gives you more than what you lose IMO).

from there, consider going with unarmed strike instead (two-weapon fighting if possible, then combine it with natural attacks to get an enormous amount of attacks)

Vestigial Arms aren't really worth the discovery (unless you REALLY just want to use weapons).

Consider this, if you Two-weapon fight with unarmed strikes, and also use natural weapons (in ur case, 4 different natural weapons) then you actually get a lot of value out of the amulet of mighty fists.

If you go this route, I would suggest getting +5 enhancement bonus to the amulet of mighty fists, simply because your natural attacks and unarmed strikes can now overcome almost all DR, and you'll need the extra bonus to hit due to two-weapon fighting and only having an average base attack.

Silver Crusade

Ok, here is a rebuild

Vivisectionist:
Gobby
Male Hobgoblin Alchemist (Internal Alchemist, Vivisectionist) 11
NN Medium Humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +10; Senses Darkvision; Perception +14
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 22, touch 18, flat-footed 14 (+2 armor, +8 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 102 (11d8+33)
Fort +12, Ref +17, Will +8
Defensive Abilities Uncanny Dodge; Immune disease, poison
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Bite (Mutagen (feral)) +17 (1d8+3/x2) and
. . Claw x2 (Mutagen (feral)) +17 x2 (1d6+3/x2) and
. . Tentacle (Tentacle) +17 (1d4+3 plus grab/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +17/+12 (1d3+3/x2) and Unarmed strike +17/+12 (1d3+3/x2)
Special Attacks Grab, Sneak Attack +6d6, Tentacle
Alchemist (Internal Alchemist, Vivisectionist) Spells Prepared (CL 11, 8 melee touch, 16 ranged touch):
4 (3/day) Invisibility, Greater (x2) (DC 18), Fluid Form
3 (5/day) Heroism (DC 17), Enlarge Person/Shield, Combined (x2), Enlarge Person/Stone Fist, Combined (x2)
2 (5/day) Barkskin, Alchemical Allocation (x4)
1 (6/day) Shield (x2), Cure Light Wounds (DC 15), Enlarge Person (DC 15), Disguise Self, Stone Fist
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 19/27, Con 16, Int 16/18, Wis 12/10, Cha 7
Base Atk +8; CMB +8 (+12 Grappling); CMD 26
Feats Brew Potion, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Multiattack, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +19, Appraise +8, Climb +1, Craft (alchemy) +20, Disable Device +20, Heal +18, Intimidate +0, Knowledge (arcana) +18, Knowledge (nature) +18, Perception +14, Sleight of Hand +22, Spellcraft +8, Stealth +26, Swim +1 Modifiers Alchemy +11
Languages Common, Draconic, Giant, Goblin, Infernal, Orc
SQ Breath Mastery, Combine Extracts, Fast Poisoning (Move Action), Feather step slippers, Feral Mutagen, Infusion, Mutagen (DC 19), Poison Use, Torturous Transformation, Wings (11 minutes/day)
Combat Gear +1 Haramaki; Other Gear Alchemist's kit, Alchemist's lab, Amulet of mighty fists +3, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Cloak of resistance +2, Elixir of hiding, Elixir of swimming, Elixir of tumbling, Elixir of vision, Feather step slippers, Feral Mutagen: +4 DEX, -2 WIS, +2 Nat AC, Headband of vast intelligence +2 (Acrobatics), Potion of barkskin +5, Potion of cure serious wounds, Potion of good hope, Potion of heroism, Potion of remove blindness/deafness, Potion of remove curse, Potion of restoration, lesser, Potion of shield of faith +5, Potion of Stoneskin, Thieves' tools, masterwork
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Elixir of hiding - 0/1
Elixir of swimming - 0/1
Elixir of tumbling - 0/1
Elixir of vision - 0/1
Feral Mutagen: +4 DEX, -2 WIS, +2 Nat AC - 0/1
Potion of barkskin +5 - 0/1
Potion of cure serious wounds - 0/1
Potion of good hope - 0/1
Potion of heroism - 0/1
Potion of remove blindness/deafness - 0/1
Potion of remove curse - 0/1
Potion of restoration, lesser - 0/1
Potion of shield of faith +5 - 0/1
Potion of Stoneskin - 0/1
Wings (11 minutes/day) - 0/11
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Alchemy +11 (Su) +11 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Breath Mastery At 1st level, the internal alchemist can control his breath and the flow of vital energy within his body. Without preparation, he can hold his breath for a number of minutes equal to his Constitution score (after this, he must begin making Constituti
Combine Extracts When the alchemist creates an extract, he can place two formulae into one extract. When the extract is consumed, both formulae take effect. This extract has a level two levels higher than the highest level formulae placed in the extract. An alchemist
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Fast Poisoning (Move Action) (Ex) Apply poison to a weapon as a move action.
Feather step slippers Ignore difficult terrain as though affected by feather step.
Feral Mutagen (Su) Whenever the alchemist imbibes a mutagen, he gains two claw attacks and a bite attack. These are primary attacks and are made using the alchemist’s full base attack bonus. The claw attacks deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if the alchemist is Small) and
Grab (Medium) (Ex) You can start a grapple as a free action if you hit with the designated weapon.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Infusion When the alchemist creates an extract, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power. The extract created now persists even after the alchemist sets it down. As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist’s d
Mutagen (DC 19) (Su) Mutagen adds +4 to a Physical attribute, -2 to a mental attribute, and +2 natural armor for 10 minutes/level.
Poison Use You don't accidentally poison yourself with blades.
Sneak Attack +6d6 +6d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Tentacle The alchemist gains a prehensile, armlength tentacle on his body. The tentacle is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The tentacle does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, th
Torturous Transformation At 7th level, a vivisectionist adds anthropomorphic animal to his formula book as a 2nd-level extract. When he uses this extract, he injects it into an animal as part of a 2-hour surgical procedure. By using multiple doses of this extract as p
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
Wings (11 minutes/day) The alchemist gains batlike, birdlike, or insectlike functional wings, allowing him to fly as the fly spell for a number of minutes per day equal to his caster level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-min


good job. there are a few more things that you can also consider as well:

Monk's Robe - gives your unarmed strikes 1d8 instead of 1d3 (a big boost in damage)

also, if you want full strength to your off-hand, you need the double-slice feat.

And finally, I personally would drop weapon finesse (it's not a bad choice, but if you're going the route of mutagens, you'll be getting big bonuses to your strength score as well)

and finally, if you're wearing armor, get the 'Brawler' property from the ultimate equipment (+2 to hit and damage with unarmed strikes, but not natural attacks) still a great way to boost your hit and damage.


Neither tentacles nor vestigial arms give you any extra attacks.


DrDeth wrote:
Neither tentacles nor vestigial arms give you any extra attacks.

this is incorrect good sir. :)

the tentacle discovery specifically states that it can give you a 'tentacle' attack (which is a secondary natural attack).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You could go for four arms, wielding two Sawtooth Sabres.

You two-hand each one, allowing for extra damage from strength and power attack, but still counts as light for two weapon fighting penalties.

You say no "splat" books. What does that include?

Silver Crusade

blackbloodtroll wrote:

You could go for four arms, wielding two Sawtooth Sabres.

You two-hand each one, allowing for extra damage from strength and power attack, but still counts as light for two weapon fighting penalties.

You say no "splat" books. What does that include?

Unfortunately that occupies the claws on the two main limbs, resulting in a net loss of one attack. Also, I'm not going for a strength build but a build that maximizes attacks for sneak attack damage.

I said only hardcover books, so CRB, APG, ARG, UM, UE, UC. Nothing like Goblins of Golarion, Faiths of Purity, Pirates of the Inner Seas, Adventurer's Armory, that kind of stuff is all disallowed.

Silver Crusade

Duskblade wrote:

also, if you want full strength to your off-hand, you need the double-slice feat.

And finally, I personally would drop weapon finesse (it's not a bad choice, but if you're going the route of mutagens, you'll be getting big bonuses to your strength score as well)

I'm not going for a strength build here. I'm looking to get damage by maxing attacks with sneak attack and decided that rather than have to build up to a 19 dex and then pump strength to take full advantage of TWFing, I'd rather just sack strength and go the weapon Finesse route.

I'll look into the other stuff you mentioned.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Scion of Humaity Aasimar with the Racial Heritage(Kobold) feat and Tail Terror feat for tail attack, and then Metallic Wings feat for two wing attacks.

Silver Crusade

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Scion of Humaity Aasimar with the Racial Heritage(Kobold) feat and Tail Terror feat for tail attack, and then Metallic Wings feat for two wing attacks.

That's 6 feats to get 3 natural attacks. Not really worth it in my humble opinion. Also, not really looking to be an Aasimar. Thanks tho!


Duskblade wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Neither tentacles nor vestigial arms give you any extra attacks.

this is incorrect good sir. :)

the tentacle discovery specifically states that it can give you a 'tentacle' attack (which is a secondary natural attack).

Only in place of another attack.

"The tentacle does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round..."

In other words,INSTEAD OF a attack with a weapon in your hand, you can attack with a tentacle.


yea, 6 feats is kinda heavy for 3 natural attacks.

again, with Monk's Robe, you're attacks will look something like this...

Kick = 1d8 + Strength
Kick (2) = 1d8 + half Strength (or full, assuming Double Slice)
Claw = 1d6 + half Strength (Full strength if not using unarmed strike)
Claw = 1d6 + half Strength(Full strength if not using unarmed strike)
Bite = 1d8 + half Strength(Full strength if not using unarmed strike)
Tentacle = 1d4 + half Strength

And again, this is not counting iterative attacks from unarmed strikes :P

Also, you should REALLY consider getting the Thorn Body extract, as well as Enlarge Person and Animal Aspect (gorilla) to REALLY maximize damage output.

Trust me, you'll be out-damaging the fighter easy.

On a final note, don't be afraid to take the 'extra discovery' feat whenever you get the chance. Discoveries (like rage powers) are typically more powerful than ordinary feats.

Other options can include...

Deflect Arrows (hey, negating an attack is always useful)

Combat Reflexes (for when you get that insanely long reach with either Enlarge Person or Fluid Form)

Extra Discovery: Tumor Familiar (basically get the one that adds +2 to will saves, and keep him in ur body all the time...that way you constantly benefit from the 'alertness feat'...so essentially this makes Tumor Familiar much better than taking something like 'Iron Will'....if you don't want the extra bonus to will save, consider getting the initiative boosting familiar instead)

Extra Discovery: Eternal Potion (I know you can't get it yet, but seriously...an Eternal Potion of Haste or Good Hope is just WAY too good to pass up. Consider it like this, if there was a feat that basically said 'gain constant haste' or 'gain constant Good Hope'...trust me...all of us would take it).

Toughness - You might need the extra hit points (d8 is good, but more never hurts). This is always a solid feat choice.

Extra Discovery: Mummification (this ability is SOOO useful, especially when combined with the Ablative Barrier combo, as it basically gives you DR 5/- without actually giving you DR)

hope this helps :)


DrDeth wrote:
Duskblade wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Neither tentacles nor vestigial arms give you any extra attacks.

this is incorrect good sir. :)

the tentacle discovery specifically states that it can give you a 'tentacle' attack (which is a secondary natural attack).

Only in place of another attack.

"The tentacle does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round..."

In other words,INSTEAD OF a attack with a weapon in your hand, you can attack with a tentacle.

A lot of people really get this confused, so allow me to explain...

The whole "the tentacle does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round..." clause is mainly meant to describe how this 'extra limb' doesn't change how many attacks you can 'normally' make in a round. For example, if a character is using 'two-weapon fighting' and also has a tentacle, the tentacle does not allow you to make more attacks beyond your base attack bonus.

However, RAW specifically mentions that a 'tentacle attack' counts as a secondary natural weapon, and thus can be used as part of a full round.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Nope.

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2u4o&page=467?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Que stions-Here#23305

James Jacobs (Creative Director) 7 hours, 3 minutes ago
DrDeth wrote:

James, clarify one thing for me: Alchemist:

Feral Mutagen- gains two claws- but at the cost of using a weapon in those appendages?

Tentacles- can use them INSTEAD OF a weapon attack, not in addition to?

Vestigial Limb- same question?

In other words, as I read it, none of these things give you extra attacks, (well Feral does give a extra Bite attack) just more choices of what attacks to make, things to do?

James Jacobs (Creative Director) 7 hours, 3 minutes ago "Yes. They're supposed to be a choice. Use the claws/tentacles or use a weapon. All monsters with claws and tentacles have to make that choice."


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

multi limb/multi attack argument again...sigh

best answer

talk to your GM work it out with them. this still has no official errata and probably never will


First I would say you posed a poorly worded question to Mr. James Jacob, but if you want me to clarify I would be more than happy to...

You CAN use natural attacks in conjunction with manufactured weapons so long as your natural attacks are treated as 'secondary' natural attacks (-5 penalty to hit, and at half strength).

Now, if you want to ask Mr. James Jacob something like this...

"Does the tentacle discovery for the Alchemist count as a secondary natural attack?"

If he says no, then I concede the point and you win.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

JJ is not a developer, meaning not a rules guy.

He has some good advice though.

That's all I wanted to add.

Sczarni

Also want to add that increasing your Natural Attacks using your Amulet of Mighty Fists to +5 is still a debated topic on whether it overcomes DR as if they were manufactured weapons...

Silver Crusade

DrDeth wrote:

Nope.

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2u4o&page=467?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Que stions-Here#23305

James Jacobs (Creative Director) 7 hours, 3 minutes ago
DrDeth wrote:

James, clarify one thing for me: Alchemist:

Feral Mutagen- gains two claws- but at the cost of using a weapon in those appendages?

Tentacles- can use them INSTEAD OF a weapon attack, not in addition to?

Vestigial Limb- same question?

In other words, as I read it, none of these things give you extra attacks, (well Feral does give a extra Bite attack) just more choices of what attacks to make, things to do?

James Jacobs (Creative Director) 7 hours, 3 minutes ago "Yes. They're supposed to be a choice. Use the claws/tentacles or use a weapon. All monsters with claws and tentacles have to make that choice."

All he's saying in that post is that you cannot wield a weapon and attack with that weapon using your tentacle and then make a tentacle attack.

If a player has a limb with a natural attack that can also wield a weapon, they must decide whether to forgo the natural attack of that limb and wield the weapon or not.

That's what he's responding to: The choice of using a limb to hold a weapon or to make a natural attack.


The rules say they don’t grant any extra attacks*, and James Jacobs also sez so.

*”The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks …”
“The tentacle does not give the alchemist any extra attacks …”

Find a Dev or a FAQ that says they do grant EXTRA attacks then. All they do is allow you more attack OPTIONS. You can swing a weapon, OR slash with a claw OR use that back up weapon in your vestigial arm OR make a tentacle attack. OR.

It’s RAW and RAI. Really, a minor class feature that grants you two extra attacks a round?

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
DrDeth wrote:

The rules say they don’t grant any extra attacks*, and James Jacobs also sez so.

*”The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks …”
“The tentacle does not give the alchemist any extra attacks …”

Find a Dev or a FAQ that says they do grant EXTRA attacks then. All they do is allow you more attack OPTIONS. You can swing a weapon, OR slash with a claw OR use that back up weapon in your vestigial arm OR make a tentacle attack. OR.

It’s RAW and RAI. Really, a minor class feature that grants you two extra attacks a round?

No it's not. 1st, you didn't pay attention to JJ's answer.

The point of the rules text preventing extra attacks is to prevent situations where an alchemist tires to do something like hold and throw a bomb in his tentacle/vestigial arm and also shoot with a bow in his regular hands.

It does NOT modify the rules governing weapons and natural attacks.

Anyone can combine their iterative attacks and any natural attacks that they have as a full round attack action. You simply must make the natural attacks secondary

Without complicating it:

Say a 20th level alchemist holds a mace in two hands and has a tentacle. He may as a full round attack make 3 attacks with his mace using his iterative attacks and he may also make 1 tentacle attack at his full BAB -5 (-2 if he has Multiattack). He may NOT make 3 attacks with his mace and then throw a bomb with his tentacle because THAT would be giving him an extra attack.


That is your opinion. Mine is that they don’t grant any extra attacks. I showed the actual RAW which agrees with me. I showed a cite from JJ that agrees with me. SKR has also posted and agrees vestigial arms grant no extra attacks. Heck, that’s two devs- three if you count me (I am not a PF dev, however)

You can ask JJ to clarify if you think I misread him.

But that is 3 sources* that say “no extra attacks”. Find me a source that sez these do grant extra attacks. Just repeating your opinion over & over doesn’t really help that much.

* 4 if you count me, but I wouldn’t.

Sczarni

Your quote from JJ is hardly a "source". You only read what you wanted. His clarification only shows that if you have 2 arms and those arms have claws you would have to CHOOSE whether to attack with your claws or a Greatsword. You would not be able to attack with your Greatsword AND your claws in a single turn.

Do I think they've clarified it better in other threads? No, but they tried. They've said that some of the things we do with Vestigial Arms is against the RAI they had in mind, but by RAW it wasn't clarified to prevent our actions in that manner. Case and point dual wielding two 2 handed weapons. Nothing says you can't but it wasn't what they intended to allow.

Silver Crusade

DrDeth wrote:

That is your opinion. Mine is that they don’t grant any extra attacks. I showed the actual RAW which agrees with me. I showed a cite from JJ that agrees with me. SKR has also posted and agrees vestigial arms grant no extra attacks. Heck, that’s two devs- three if you count me (I am not a PF dev, however)

You can ask JJ to clarify if you think I misread him.

But that is 3 sources* that say “no extra attacks”. Find me a source that sez these do grant extra attacks. Just repeating your opinion over & over doesn’t really help that much.

* 4 if you count me, but I wouldn’t.

You are missing the point: Natural Weapons come with a built in attack. If a character has 100 natural weapons, he has 100 attacks. But those Built-in attacks do not affect their "Regular" attacks or Iterative attacks. That is what they mean by "You do not get an extra attack"

Examples:

1: Alchemist has 4 arms, 2 by Vestigial arms. He cannot hold 4 short swords and make 4 short sword attacks. Likewise, the alchemist cannot suddenly throw multiple bombs for each limb.

2: Alchemist has 4 arms and 1 tentacle. He cannot hold 5 short swords and make 5 short sword attacks. He MAY hold 2 short swords and make the 1 free attack that he gets with the tentacle although he must make that attack at a -5.

3: Alchemist drinks a feral mutagen and grows 2 claws on his normal hands and a Bite. Alchemist also has 2 vestigial arms. He may wield a spear in his vestigial arms, make his 3 spear attacks, and then make 3 natural attacks at a -5.

4: Same as in example 3, except now the Alchemist also has a tentacle. He may still make his 3 spear attacks and his 4 natural attacks at a -5.

These are the natural attack rules. This is how they work for all classes. The Vestigial Arms discover and the Tentacle discovery do not affect these rules. Alchemists can have 3 iterative attacks and as many natural attacks as they legally can get. Vestigial arm and Tentacle do not get the alchemist extra ITERATIVE attacks, that is what the rules text of the discovery is saying. If the rules worked the way you say they work, that means that an alchemist with the tentacle discovery could ONLY make a tentacle attack as a standard action. This is nonsense because no other natural attack user works this way.

Scarab Sages

Don't know if anyone suggested this yet, but felt I should mention it.

Beastmorph Archetype stacks with Vivisectionist. This gets you pounce at 7th-8th level, I believe. Maybe sooner. If you're going for a full-attack build, this is basically a must have.

Silver Crusade

Davor wrote:

Don't know if anyone suggested this yet, but felt I should mention it.

Beastmorph Archetype stacks with Vivisectionist. This gets you pounce at 7th-8th level, I believe. Maybe sooner. If you're going for a full-attack build, this is basically a must have.

Mouth-Waters.

EDIT: Actually looks like it's 10th level. Still good though.

Sczarni

Oh I didn't read everyone else's posts...figured that was already mentioned as a staple to go along with Vivisectionist natural attack builds.

If you want an "interesting" build look up Alchy Amy or Amy Alchy...its Cheapy's Vivisectionist Beastmorph Monk build that is as he puts it "a lesson in ridiculous".

Silver Crusade

ossian666 wrote:

Oh I didn't read everyone else's posts...figured that was already mentioned as a staple to go along with Vivisectionist natural attack builds.

If you want an "interesting" build look up Alchy Amy or Amy Alchy...its Cheapy's Vivisectionist Beastmorph Monk build that is as he puts it "a lesson in ridiculous".

Yeah, for a long long time I've been in CRB only games, now branching out a bit, trying to get some new stuff under my belt. I'll have to check it out, Cheapy always has good stuff.

EDIT: Found it, Reading Now.

EDIT 2: I like it. He went the opposite route I did. I went for maxing the number of attacks and maxing the +hit, he went with maxing the damage and +hit on the 3 attacks you get from Feral Mutagen. Different but definitely good.

Sczarni

Oh and if it were me I'd go with a race that starts with 2 claws like a Tiefling with the Claw or Maw alternate racial trait. Start with 2 claws on your main hands, get 2 more arms and when you drink your Mutagen you put your 2 claws on your extra arms and gain a bite, grow a tentacle, and just out right destroy with your now 5 natural attacks of which only the tentacle is secondary.

Silver Crusade

ossian666 wrote:
Oh and if it were me I'd go with a race that starts with 2 claws like a Tiefling with the Claw or Maw alternate racial trait. Start with 2 claws on your main hands, get 2 more arms and when you drink your Mutagen you put your 2 claws on your extra arms and gain a bite, grow a tentacle, and just out right destroy with your now 5 natural attacks of which only the tentacle is secondary.

6 natural attacks, but I see where you're going.

Sczarni

Oh yea forgot about the bite when I did my math.

There are a few posts/threads somewhere of my own build that uses a Tiefling with Claw and Maw and the trait Adopted to gain Tusked, so you permanantly have 2 claws and a bite attack starting at level 1 which gives you a small advantage early on with damage. The downfall is it quickly drops off because natural attacks and unarmed strikes get the raw end of deal when it comes to enhancing your attacks. I chose Tiefling for the alternate Racial Traits and he feat where you basically start with those attacks, a tail to retrieve items as a swift action, and for a feat you add +2 Natural AC on top of the resistances so using your neck slot for Amulet of Mighty Fists doesn't hurt your Natural AC quite AS MUCH.


ossian666 wrote:
Also want to add that increasing your Natural Attacks using your Amulet of Mighty Fists to +5 is still a debated topic on whether it overcomes DR as if they were manufactured weapons...

Not sure how this is debatable when it specifically says (for both monk's and everyone else) that unarmed strikes are treated as manufactured weapons.


DrDeth wrote:

That is your opinion. Mine is that they don’t grant any extra attacks. I showed the actual RAW which agrees with me. I showed a cite from JJ that agrees with me. SKR has also posted and agrees vestigial arms grant no extra attacks. Heck, that’s two devs- three if you count me (I am not a PF dev, however)

You can ask JJ to clarify if you think I misread him.

But that is 3 sources* that say “no extra attacks”. Find me a source that sez these do grant extra attacks. Just repeating your opinion over & over doesn’t really help that much.

* 4 if you count me, but I wouldn’t.

meh, I've seen way too many people get hung up on the whole 'doesn't grant extra attacks' clause, and if that's how you wanna interpret it, that's fine. Though I suppose I could always point out the obvious...

Claw attack = natural weapon
Bite attack = natural weapon
Wing attack = natural weapon
Tail attack = natural weapon
'TENTACLE attack = NATURAL WEAPON'

If you look at any monster in the Bestiary, or ANY reference to where a 'tentacle attack' is mentioned, it is ALWAYS considered a natural attack.

Anyway, if you're still not convinced, then we can just agree to disagree.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Check the Bestiary for the Giant Squid and Giant Octopus entries.

Silver Crusade

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Check the Bestiary for the Giant Squid and Giant Octopus entries.

What about them?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Elamdri wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Check the Bestiary for the Giant Squid and Giant Octopus entries.

What about them?

Tentacle attacks.


not sure what you're getting at with the squid and octopus...those are both once again natural attacks.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Exactly.
I am in support.


ah, sorry. my bad. I thought you were out looking for the 'exceptions to the rule'. lol

but yea, tentacle attacks are all considered natural attacks :P so I find it hard to believe that this discovery is the 'exception to the rule'.

The Exchange

so...does having natural claws (tiefling option) allow your claws from feral mutagen to go to your vestigal arms? I very much like the idea, but I just wanna make sure that's actually legal.


theirs been a debate about that, but to be perfectly honest, it's totally legal (IMO anyway, and I've yet to see any reason in to refute it). Your vestigial arms are legal targets for the claws, so yes, you could do it.

this would give you 4 claw and 1 bite attack...plus 1 tentacle attack as well.

the problem is that Vestigial Arms aren't really worth a 'discovery' (at least not in my book). The other discoveries are much more powerful, especially if you're making a 'melee Mr. Hyde' build.

Tiefling really isn't the best choice for an alchemist because a tiefling can't be effected by Enlarge Person (humanoid only spell). However, if you don't plan on using Enlarge person, then I would suggest getting prehensile tail so u can get ur potions as swift actions.

if you're cool with using polymorph spells, using Undead Anatomy will basically give you almost all the benefits of ur feral mutagen, so you don't really need the a race that starts out with natural attacks (unless that's what you're explicitly aiming for).


Duskblade wrote:

ah, sorry. my bad. I thought you were out looking for the 'exceptions to the rule'. lol

but yea, tentacle attacks are all considered natural attacks :P so I find it hard to believe that this discovery is the 'exception to the rule'.

The Alchemist tentacles are an exception to the rule- as the rules say so. They are specifically called out as “The tentacle does not give the alchemist any extra attacks …”. This is why they don't. If it didn't specifically say “The tentacle does not give the alchemist any extra attacks …” then your argument would be valid.

Honestly what more could the devs say? “The tentacle does not give the alchemist any extra attacks , really, truly, not in a box, not with a fox. Really. We mean it. Honestly. No. Nada. Nyet. nien. Zero. Zilch. Zero. Look, we're not kidding around here- NO EXTRA ATTACKS!!. "

Vestigial arms do not give you extra attacks even if you put claws on them. "Really, truly, not in a box, not with a fox. Really. We mean it. Honestly. No. Nada. Nyet. nien. Zero. Zilch. Zero. Look, we're not kidding around here- NO EXTRA ATTACKS!!. "

None of these give you extra attacks. "Really, truly, not in a box, not with a fox. Really. We mean it. Honestly. No. Nada. Nyet. nien. Zero. Zilch. Zero. Look, we're not kidding around here- NO EXTRA ATTACKS!!. "

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