Fighter Archetypes and Armor Training


Rules Questions


A discussion came up in a game the other night about fighter's and armor training. However, since level wise for the character it won't matter for another two levels, it was largely set aside for now. It comes down to an issue of semantics and interpretation of the rules as written.

The character I am using is a two handed fighter. The two handed fighter archetype replaces armor training 1,2,3, and 4. The way I interpret this, is that that means that I do not get the dex or armor penalty check improvements. Which I understand and knew.

The disagreement came with the rest of the armor training class feature.

"Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.

In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor."

Posted for ease of reading. The fact that the reduction of movement penalties is separated from the description of armor training 1-4, means to me, that it is not replaced bye the loss of armor training 1-4. The other side was saying that because the fighter does not get armor training 1-4, they do not get the additional bit that was not attached to any specific level of armor training.

Simplified, it was a discussion of whether things replacing armor training 1-4 meant that it replaces armor training entirely, including that which is not something specifically given on any specific level of armor training. Or if things replacing armor training 1-4 meant exactly what it says. It replaces only the dex/armor penalty bonuses earned at 1-4.

Thank you for your time.


That part is a part of Armor Training, hence the 'In addition' at the beginning of the sentence. Therefore, you would lose out on the movement speed increase in medium and heavy armors.


Even though it is not part of armor training 1-4? Since each class feature replaces armor training 1, 2, 3, or 4. But never Armor training itself, I wasn't sure. I guess I am seeing it as more of a "modification" to armor training, than an actual replacement of the entire thing.

To me, the "in addition" is separating that part of armor training from armor training 1-4

Grand Lodge

I think in this case, "in addition" could be swapped with "also" as in, "Armor training does this. Also, it does that."

It is saying that Armor Training not only gives you the dex and armor check changes, it also gives you the maneuverability changes.

All of it is a part of Armor Training.

*edit* Also, it does, in a way, show that is IS a part of Armor Training I and II, as it is 3rd level and 7th level, which is when you get I and II.


Yes, it is all a part of armor training. The discussion is whether it is taken away with the loss of the levels of armor training, or if it is its own specific thing. An armor training 0 of sorts.

Grand Lodge

npaulagain wrote:
Yes, it is all a part of armor training. The discussion is whether it is taken away with the loss of the levels of armor training, or if it is its own specific thing. An armor training 0 of sorts.

I edited my above post, right when you were posting this. ;)

It looks to be part of Armor Training I and II, since it happens at the levels you get I and II. It's not an Armor Training 0, it is part of Armor Training, which you don't get if you go two handed.


Hmm... Quite the odd wording they used then. I would think it'd be easier to simply say "Lose armor training" and then go, "at level blah, blah, blah, and blah. You get bleh, bleh, bleh, and bleh."

*edit* I'm not really holding the same view anymore. Just curious if anyone else kind of paused and went... "wait..." on it.


Just checking in on this, as it came up for me too while I was pondering Fighter builds. Is it really the intent of the rules that only pure Fighters can move at full speed in medium/heavy armor?


The speed reduction removal is definitely part of armor training, so if you do not get armor training, your speed is still reduced.
If it were something different, it would probably have it's own separate ability under a different name.

And besides there are plenty of fighter archetypes that still get armor training 1, unbreakables coming to mind.


I see it as you lose everything about armor training.

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