Alchemist Discovery Questions: Tentacle, Vestigial Arms, Feral Mutagen


Rules Questions


Okay, I've been browsing around the threads thus far and haven't been able to find a good answer yet. Therefore, I was hoping someone could help answer the following questions:

1) Does the Alchemists 'tentacle' discovery count as a secondary natural attack?

2) If the Alchemist has two Vestigial Arms and uses the Feral Mutagen, can the two extra arms be the targets for when the Alchemist gains the claws?

The reason I ask is because I'm currently thinking about making the 'madman tiefling', who also has the alternate racial trait granting him claws. Therefore, when I get my two extra arms and drink Feral Mutagen, I will have a grand total of 4 claw attacks and 1 bite attack. I'd also love to add the 'tentacle' attack to my list as well, and I'm still looking for any other method to add even more 'natural attacks' to my tiefling.

I also plan to use the alternate racial trait 'prehensile tail' so I can draw my potions as a swift action (though sadly I don't think this works with the 'accelerated drinker' trait since I didn't have my potion in hand at the 'start' of my turn, but meh, it would be nice if it did).

If anyone can't tell, I"m trying to go for a Vivisectionist/Besatmorphing alchemist with the following discovieries:

2x Vestigial Arm
1x Feral Mutagen
1xGreater Mutagen (12th)
1xGrand Mutagen (16th)
1xBleeding Attack
1xPreserve Organs
1xMummification (10th)
1xCombine Extracts (8th)
1xTrue Mutagen (Grand Discovery)

I'm also thinking about taking 'additional discoveries' so I can add more Preserve Organ benefits, and perhaps take 'infuse mutagen' since I kinda want the benefits to last as much as possible (especially considering that I don't have persistent mutagen as a skill anymore) :(


1) yes
2) yes, BUT you still can't make additional attacks. No 4 natural claw attacks, altough if you manage 4 attacks per full round action, nothing is stopping you from using every claw once.

I believe accelerated drinker (and probably prehensile tail) don't work with mutagens or other class abilities. Also it's a 3.5 feat I believe, so houseruling anyhow.

Otherwise I think you've got a solid build. I prefer my vivisectionist/Beastmorph with sap master and similar things however (seeing as the vestigal claws don't offer extra attacks).


Pathfinder SRD wrote:
The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine.

My interpretation of Vestigial Arms was always like this- the arms themselves do not give you 'extra attacks' but they can be used to perform attacks that you could 'normally make' during an alchemist's 'normal' attack routine. For example, if I have 2 claw attacks, and 2 Vestigial Arms, I can wield a two-handed weapon and make a full attack as part of my 'normal' routine, and then use my 2 claw attacks as 'secondary natural attacks'.

However, if I give my Vestigial Arms 'claws' (using Feral Mutagen), then my 'normal attack routine' would be 4 primary claw attacks and 1 primary bite attack (assuming full round action of course).

accelerated drinker is a 'trait' that can be selected in pathfinder, not a 3.5 feat :)

Sczarni

you don't happen to have a link to that trait do you?


Accelerated Drinker


Your second post is right, a full round action can include attacks from BAB and natural weapons. The vestigal arms help you have your hands free to claw the ennemy.

However even with vestigal arms you only have 2 secondary natural attacks.
From your first post I thought you meant you get 4 extra secondary natural attacks, which is (to my knowledge) false.
You should however be able to attack with your claws as normal weapons during your full attack routine.

For the accelerated drinker, I was referring to the work Paizo produced for the 3.5 rules set. Also I think it got errataed or FAQ (don't know about prehensile tail). If you ask your GM about the feat, I would recommend protective gear, because you're in fact asking to let a caster "cast" as a move action. Would you allow thiis to a bard or what is a magus good for if everyone can cast and attack?

Sczarni

a link to PRD? or at least what book its from?


Richard Leonhart wrote:

Your second post is right, a full round action can include attacks from BAB and natural weapons. The vestigal arms help you have your hands free to claw the ennemy.

However even with vestigal arms you only have 2 secondary natural attacks.
From your first post I thought you meant you get 4 extra secondary natural attacks, which is (to my knowledge) false.
You should however be able to attack with your claws as normal weapons during your full attack routine.

For the accelerated drinker, I was referring to the work Paizo produced for the 3.5 rules set. Also I think it got errataed or FAQ (don't know about prehensile tail). If you ask your GM about the feat, I would recommend protective gear, because you're in fact asking to let a caster "cast" as a move action. Would you allow thiis to a bard or what is a magus good for if everyone can cast and attack?

I guess I need to explain where I'm getting my 4 'primary' natural attacks (from claws).

Alright, a tiefling has an alternate racial trait (Maw or Claw) that gives it a natural attack (1d6 bite or 2 1d4 claw attacks). Now, once I get 2 of my vestigial arms and drink my feral mutagen, my vestigial arms will be the targets to get my 'claw' attacks.

Therefore, I will get 5 'primary attacks' as a full-round action.

I'm not sure if Accelerated drinker has been altered to exclude alchemist extracts and such, but with RAW, it seems that both it and Prehensile tale can easily abuse Alchemist utility.

Also, accelerated drinker is from Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils (says so in the link) :P

Liberty's Edge

Accelerated drinker works, but only for potions. Alchemist extracts are not potions, nor are mutagens. With it, you can drink a potion as a move action, but using an extract or a mutagen is still a standard action.

I don't believe that the vestigial limb/tentacle discoveries can give you more attacks, either. It specifically says they can't. I think they're intended to just give you more free hands, so you can have more things "in-hand" while making a full attack. I may be wrong on this one, but it seems a little broken to be getting an additional 2 primary attacks per round with two discoveries.


I imagine you must take real issue then with the Beast Totem, lesser rage power with barbarians then. ;)

The tentacle attack is a 'secondary natural attack' (as per the rule of natural attacks).

In addition, as I stated above, my interpretation of the Vestigial Arms has always been this - do they grant you extra attacks, no. However, can they be used as part of your 'normal attack routine', yes.

Therefore, if you use feral mutagen to make both Vestigial Arms into claws (which basically makes them into two primary natural attacks) then you CAN use these claws as part of your 'normal attack routine'.

And as for accelerated drinker...I guess I just have to ask...if 'extracts' and 'mutagens' don't qualify as 'potions'...what are they?

Liberty's Edge

I don't have a problem with the beast totem power, since it just gives you claw attacks, not extra attacks. Just like the draconic sorcerer ability or the feral mutagen. I think with vestigial limbs, you can use the attacks during your routine as it says, but not as additional attacks. For instance if you had 3 attacks per round, you could make two attacks with your two handed weapon, and a third with a claw. I think. It seems to go against the intention of the rules to allow 5 natural attacks with two vestigial arms.

As for what extracts and mutagens are... they're extracts and mutagens. If they were potions, you'd have to create them via the Craft Potion feat, and would be able to buy them at a shop. They're completely different.

from PRD wrote:
Extracts are the most varied of the three. In many ways, they behave like spells in potion form, and as such their effects can be dispelled by effects like dispel magic using the alchemist's level as the caster level. Unlike potions, though, extracts can have powerful effects and duplicate spells that a potion normally could not.

Similar to potions in appearance and usage, but they are not potions. It's also been FAQd.


attacks with natural weapons do not function in the same manner as manufactured weapons. A character's BAB does not effect how many 'natural attacks' you can make in a round.

If you have 5 different natural attacks (In my example: 4 different claws and a bite attack) you can make 5 attacks using your Full BAB as a full-round action.

Alternatively, if you have something like 'improved unarmed strike', you can even make attacks with your feet and/or head. However, if you do so (and keep in mind that using IUS DOES use a character's BAB), then all your natural attacks become 'secondary' (giving them a -5 penalty and only apply 1/2 strength to dmg).

Where this build REALLY gets fun is when u use two-weapon fighting with ur natural attacks.

For instance (and again, assuming u r a vivisectionist), with a BAB of +11, along with the right feats, your full-round attack can look like this:

6 attacks from your unarmed strikes (per two-weapon fighting using your BAB as normal)

and then 6 MORE attacks from your 'natural weapons' (4 claws, 1 bite, and 1 tentacle...all at a -5 penalty and 1/2 strength)

then, after all is said and done, u can also apply sneak attack dmg to all of those attacks (assuming you meet the sneak attack requirements of course)

now then, back to the 'accelerated drinking' issue...

In order for an alchemist to use an extract/mutagen, he must first draw the extract/mutagen (a move action) and then drink the said item (a standard action). The methods for performing these actions is no different from when you use a potion, and mutagens and extracts are all essentially like potions in every regard (except they have more dynamic effects).

And as far as the FAQ is concerned, it is important to note that Devs are NOT the final decision makers when it comes to these rulings. Even devs have discussions and disagreements regarding how the rules should be interpreted.

I suppose I could just ask the simply question: does it make sense that an 'accelerated drinker' could use extracts/mutagens in the exact same way.

Common sense would suggest yes.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Duskblade wrote:
Richard Leonhart wrote:

Your second post is right, a full round action can include attacks from BAB and natural weapons. The vestigal arms help you have your hands free to claw the ennemy.

However even with vestigal arms you only have 2 secondary natural attacks.
From your first post I thought you meant you get 4 extra secondary natural attacks, which is (to my knowledge) false.
You should however be able to attack with your claws as normal weapons during your full attack routine.

For the accelerated drinker, I was referring to the work Paizo produced for the 3.5 rules set. Also I think it got errataed or FAQ (don't know about prehensile tail). If you ask your GM about the feat, I would recommend protective gear, because you're in fact asking to let a caster "cast" as a move action. Would you allow thiis to a bard or what is a magus good for if everyone can cast and attack?

I guess I need to explain where I'm getting my 4 'primary' natural attacks (from claws).

Alright, a tiefling has an alternate racial trait (Maw or Claw) that gives it a natural attack (1d6 bite or 2 1d4 claw attacks). Now, once I get 2 of my vestigial arms and drink my feral mutagen, my vestigial arms will be the targets to get my 'claw' attacks.

Therefore, I will get 5 'primary attacks' as a full-round action.

I'm not sure if Accelerated drinker has been altered to exclude alchemist extracts and such, but with RAW, it seems that both it and Prehensile tale can easily abuse Alchemist utility.

Also, accelerated drinker is from Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils (says so in the link) :P

Technically, it works by the way the rules are written, but I guarantee you a lot of DMs are going to say "no way, it says no extra attacks". The best way to make use of a 4-armed alchemist is to have two two-handed weapons. This doesn't give you any extra attacks, but lets you deal 1.5x (or 2x if you take a couple feats) Strength damage per attack.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Duskblade wrote:


now then, back to the 'accelerated drinking' issue...

In order for an alchemist to use an extract/mutagen, he must first draw the extract/mutagen (a move action) and then drink the said item (a standard action). The methods for performing these actions is no different from when you use a potion, and mutagens and extracts are all essentially like potions in every regard (except they have more dynamic effects).

And as far as the FAQ is concerned, it is important to note that Devs are NOT the final decision makers when it comes to these rulings. Even devs have discussions and disagreements regarding how the rules should be interpreted.

I suppose I could just ask the simply question: does it make sense that an 'accelerated drinker' could use...

Sorry dude, you're in the rules forum. An official FAQ saying that you can't use that trait with extracts nullifies your argument completely in here. Can your DM house-rule it that it works? Absolutely. But the rules say it doesn't.


*sigh* again, regarding the whole 'does not give extra attacks' issue...let me explain what that really means.

1) just because you have an 'extra arm' does not mean you get 'extra' attacks. the extra arm doesn't change how many attacks you can 'normally' make.

2) the arm can be used as part of a 'normal' attack routine (which explains how u can wield a weapon with it...but again, I'm not saying you get 'extra attacks' with it).

3) if the extra arm becomes a claw, then attacking with that arm can be used as part of a 'normal attack routine'

by changing the arm into a 'natural weapon' (in this case, a claw), you gain an extra attacks NOT from the arm itself, but because that arm is now treated as a NATURAL weapon (which, as part of a 'normal' attack routine, means that u can now attack with it).

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Duskblade wrote:

*sigh* again, regarding the whole 'does not give extra attacks' issue...let me explain what that really means.

1) just because you have an 'extra arm' does not mean you get 'extra' attacks. the extra arm doesn't change how many attacks you can 'normally' make.

2) the arm can be used as part of a 'normal' attack routine (which explains how u can wield a weapon with it...but again, I'm not saying you get 'extra attacks' with it).

3) if the extra arm becomes a claw, then attacking with that arm can be used as part of a 'normal attack routine'

by changing the arm into a 'natural weapon' (in this case, a claw), you gain an extra attacks NOT from the arm itself, but because that arm is now treated as a NATURAL weapon (which, as part of a 'normal' attack routine, means that u can now attack with it).

Oh I totally agree with your interpretation, I'm just saying that there are a lot of people out there who absolutely vehemently disagree with this interpretation and it's hard to change their minds. Trust me, I've tried.


i suppose i just try to go the common sense approach (especially when I DM). For example, should accelerated drinker let u drink extracts/mutagens as move actions...sure...i don't see why not (and it doesn't break the game either).

this also goes back to my prehensile tail argument- can a character with a prehensile tail use a tailblade...sure...again, not game breaking and is actually very flavorful.

but again, that's just me.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Duskblade wrote:

i suppose i just try to go the common sense approach (especially when I DM). For example, should accelerated drinker let u drink extracts/mutagens as move actions...sure...i don't see why not (and it doesn't break the game either).

this also goes back to my prehensile tail argument- can a character with a prehensile tail use a tailblade...sure...again, not game breaking and is actually very flavorful.

but again, that's just me.

Common sense is great for a DM of a home game, and I try to do the same thing, but like I said this is the rules forum, so you're dealing with rules Nazis when you post here. The rules say that Accelerated Drinker doesn't work with extracts, and that prehensile tails can't utilize a tail blade... sorry!

Liberty's Edge

Yeah, I know how natural attacks work, just trying to figure out how I'd rule it, so that it makes the most sense.

An alchemist getting 12 attacks per round (14 if he's also a beastmorph, using pounce/rake), is exactly why I'm saying it shouldn't work. It's clearly not what was intended by the ability.

Liberty's Edge

Also, from what I understand, the FAQs are different from just a developer's opinion - they're essentially errata changes that haven't made it into official errata yet (because a new edition hasn't been printed). I'm pretty sure they're official rule changes/clarifications.


okay, after going back and looking up previous information, I realize now why accelerated drinker can't work with extracts and mutagens.

Originally, my thought process was that u needed to draw the mutagen/extract as a move action, then consume it as a standard.

this is false.

apparently u can draw them as 'free actions' and consume them as 'standard actions' (which explains why accelerated drinker doesn't work).

and as far as the 'huge amount of attacks are concerned'...well, keep in mind that this stuff does require A LOT of investment (feats, discoveries, etc).

I personally don't care much for the 'beastmorph' archtype partly because you lose 'persistant mutagen' but then again, I can understand where your concern may lie.

to be fair, it only gets worse once u consider all the 'extracts' an alchemist can use (Transformation extracts are just evil).

but yea, that's the reality of it all...and alchemist can easily outdo a fighter when it comes to the sheer number of attacks.

I suppose, after getting 13 attacks in a round, that amulet of mighty fists is worth every penny (besides, where not even adding in all the madness of potions of Greater magic fang, along with the tons of other awesome extracts either)

Liberty's Edge

Right, which is why I'm pretty sure it doesn't work the way you think it works :)

Beastmorph isn't as bad if you end up going as a race like drow, which gets the alternate favored class bonus of an additional 10 minutes of mutagen per level. Not quite as good as 1 hour per level (that you don't get until 14th), but 20 minutes per level is better than 10.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You can't pull off the Tailblade, but Armor Spikes, or two Boot Blades are an option.


do armor spikes give you a slam attack or something?

Also, I just realized that a tiefling can't gain the benefits of enlarge person (that really does suck, no joking) :(

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

No, Armor Spikes simply do not require a hand to use.

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